We extend to you a cordial "WELCOME ABOARD !" Come on in, make yourself at home, we are a friendly group of enthusiasts, and we also appreciate the classic Chris Craft Roamer, Corsair, and Lancer boats too , as they are all on the same family tree and share much in common !
"This is a solid,23" chris craft (Lancer),straight inboard Eng. It has a 350 Chevy,4 Bolt main, Fresh water cooled engine. This boat has a Deep Vee Hull,with a pocket hull, so it only draw's 1.5" of water. Engine and Transmission have less then 100 HR'S on them. Transmission is 1 to 1 ratio, and has a brand new prop. Runs Great! All the bell and whishel's work,Gauges,running light's,Bildge pump's,cabin light's,VHF. The trailer is solid aluminum,Daul Rolyes alxel's , (no leaf spring's). Boat is rock solid,but could use some paint work. These boat's are a classic,and there are not many around anymore. $3200.00. The engine alone is worth that! I just don't have the time for it anymore. Thanks."
Not what I am looking for but I'm really tempted regardless. Decent condition and closed cooling to boot! About an hour or less North of me.
Jay -- Boatless -- for now...
edit comment: Craigslist photos archived for this thread.
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Nov 22, 2011 10:34 AM
So Jay, did you buy this one. Posting was removed by the seller, images are still up for now but will expire in the future. Question is.....who got it? You know these Lancers are good boats, just look at Glenn and Jerry, both those guys have what....10 Lancers between them now? Forget the Shamrock, it's LANCER TIME.
Major congratulations on your "Almost Commander" acquisition !
October 13 2011, 11:00 AM
First of all "WELCOME ABOARD !! " You got a great model to work with.
These boats are just a stroke of the pen away from being called a Commander, and this is why we pay such deference to the Lancer series here on The Commander Forum. The exact same hull (without prop pocket or outdrive) was used in the V-drive powered 23 Commander, with a different shoe-box-top casting for upper decks of course, but the hulls are basically the same, using the same resin and fiberglass construction techniques.
Around here it is becoming apparant that eveyone who has a larger Commander also needs (or wants) a smaller classic runabout too, and many of us have gone with the classic fiberglass Chris Craft models. There are quite a few to choose from too, all great boats. The 23 Lancer is the biggest of the runabout size boats, knowing the 27 Commander was available in an open Sportsman configuration, and the 30 was too, but they are two entirely different boats for different uses. For now we'll say the 23 is the biggest in the runabout size.
This hull is notorious for being good in the chop, and at 23 feet it is big enough to stand up and walk around too. I have one being prepared for next season now and I can not wait to try it out.
Keep us posted on your progress, there are several guys here who have taken these all the way down and put them back together, so there are plenty of tips you might be able to benefit from.
If the boat has a BW Velvet Drive then it most certainy has been repowered or regeared. The stock transmission was 1.5:1 with a 15x16 cupped prop. If you are running a true 1:1 then I would think you need to drop down to a 13x13 for starters and see how she does, because the prop will be spinning a lot faster with 1:1 and smaller makes sense. I saw a Gentlemans Racer with a 13x13 prop, modified onto a true deep v Lancer 23 hull that used to be a transdrive, and the motor was a tweaked 454. Due to the drag factor on the deep v and the prop pocket factor too, I think you will have to experiment a bit, and that is what ebay is for! I did encounter some thoughts that I might not be able to get enough prop under the boat with a 1:1 but that was from the tech guy at ACME propeller as i recall. Best data will come from in-the-water testing.
Gentleman racers made from the 23 Lancer hull (photos)
October 18 2011, 10:39 AM
First of all, I do not condone the chopping of the 23 Lancer hull to do this sort of thing. While I like the final results I don't
like the fact that a 23 Lancer was sacrificed to do it. Yes the craftsmanship is great, they look good, and they obviously selected
the 23 Lancer for the integrity of the hull but I would rather see the hull totally restored so people can see what a Lancer is supposed
to look like. I have yet to see in my 30+ years of attending antique and classic boat shows the first Lancer sitting there at the docks,
in any length, shape, or form. The Lancers (and similar size Commanders using the same hulls) were not necessarily classics way back but
they sure are now. Therefore chopping one up is more of a no no now than it was before.
I did a LOT of research before springing for a new (well totally rebuilt) 72C for the 427. I know I could have gone with a direct drive
because I've seen two of them done that way, one the deep v outdrive hull that was heavily modified and the other was an inboard hull with
the prop pocket, both were direct drive and both were spinning 13" props. Once you bump up to 1.5 gear reduction the 13" prop just will
not work because it has to be spinning faster than that. The guy said he could get faster speeds with the 13 in a 4-blade on one of those
rigs, and it must have been the inboard with the prop pocket because I saw the other one on the grass and actually crawled under to see what
prop he was spinning with a 454. I was suprised to see a 13x13. With that prop and considering the 454 may be tuned to run up close to
5000 rpm with the hot rod setup he had, the speed would have been in the neighborhood of 50 miles per hour (I think he reported speeds of
the "high 40s").
First of all, here is what a classic 23 hull is supposed to look like, this is Bill Policastro's GHOST RIDER 23 Commander.
Here is the outdrive 23 that was highly modified, note the deep v hull and very low prop.
This is the rig spinning the 13x13 direct drive with a tweaked 454. As I recall these boats were selling in the $80,000 range.
Here is the other one, you can see the inboard prop pocket in the clear water if you look closely. I didn't check the prop on this one, as I
was a little self conscious about doing it at a boat show, you know fully dressed and jumping in the water at the marina might have
turned some heads. The transom is all mahogany on this one, but it is laminated (probably with polysulfide or 5200) to the glass hull.
So this is absolute proof you can make a 23 go with the direct drive. Did I make the wrong choice and go with a gear reduction? Time
will tell I guess, but I was told during my research that this particular boat is right on the cusp of either needing it or not needing
it, and I figure if I were to load the rather heavy boat with people then that would be the time when the gear reduction and swinging a
larger prop with more pitch at a reduced rpm would come into play and help me. My goal with the 427 Lancer is not top speed at all,
although (and I know Jerry is reading this trying to learn my secrets, so Jerry you're busted) I do intend to do "whatever it takes" to
be sure my 23 is faster than his, my real goal is to have a fast commuter geared and propped so it will run fast with very little engine
strain, at rpm not exceeding 4500. So now I have to also do some experimentation because even the stock 427 has 438 footpounds of torque
at 2900 rpm, and with the gear reduction I am looking at 15" props with pitch all the way into the twenties. I am also considering a 14"
4-blade setup too, so like I said, that is what ebay is for. Pick up a couple spare props with slightly different pitch and see what it
will do. On your boat I'd look at a 13x13, a 13x13 cupped, and 13x14 as some good candidates.
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Oct 18, 2011 10:40 AM
I'm tossing iron around my shop now, feel like Eric Jensen !
October 18 2011, 2:02 PM
I'm doing the Jensen Fitness Program, it's like one of those extreme fitness programs where you workout every day to the max, P-90X, you know. Only Eric tosses around engine blocks and I have to work up to that. I have several in the shop however, including two 427 motors, a hercules flathead, a small block chevy, and a OHV TR-6. Well.........I do have a weed eater or two there too.
As for the speed comment, this is not intended to be a go-fast boat. It is intended to be a 23 on steroids with a cough, cough, "stock" Chris Craft motor. Would I post something to throw Jerry off. Never! I'm only going to use the boat to go get groceries. Speed is of no concern as long as I hit the upper 40s or low 50s.
Hey no reference at all about chopping up your Lancer, I am referring to the guy who chopped up two of them to make the gentlemans racers, and although he did a fabulous job I just note the fact that it is sad two Lancers had to be chopped up to do that. The freeboard is cut down, the entire decks are tossed in the dumpster, gone. The Lancer is no more, but a new boat is hatched. There is some gratification in recycling part of the boat but the boat is gone.
On one hand I see the good and the other hand it is a bit sad.....commentary.
Yes I am tossing iron, because that needs to be done before I ever get to the aluminum parts. The Paragon is being pulled as we speak, the 427 is up off the dolly, all ancillary equipment is off, so things are moving but slowly. Seems there are many more demands on my time than the things I really would like to be doing if you know what I mean.
Deer Pale und ALL:
EYE m suphosed 2 b watchin this thrrread 2 find out secrets for Jerry, but screw himm. He is 2 b z to even right a check 2 me for the 1,000,000 dollars he ohs me. Ur secret is saf w/ me.
Jerry's evil twin brother
Hey Paul, Ron from the tranny shop down here says hi. Dropped of a friends 71c and got to talking to him. Was asking some questions and, he said he just finished some work for a guy who runs a web site for old Chris crafts. Small world, what a nice shop and knowledgeable guy. Price was incredible too, which is always nice !!!!!
Steve that is just FANTASTIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Borg Warner Expert, Ron Holloway)
October 20 2011, 2:17 PM
Steve, That made my DAY !
No kidding, it really did.
Please relay that to Ron next time you see him.
Any time a guy like Ron provides such good work at such a fair price,
you really WANT TO RECOMMEND THE GUY TO OTHERS, and it makes me so
happy to know we were able to send a bit of business his way. It is
a win/win situation all the way around.
Our Preferred / Recommended Vendor List is to be taken seriously.
Believe me, NOBODY but NOBODY gets on that list if we get word they
screwed someone. They're on that list because they are our kind of
Here is what he did for me. Pretty AWESOME don't you think!!
This is a 72C, capable of handling the torque of the 427.
Yes, that is Ron personally helping get my transmission into the truck!
I got a great quote through Freightquote.com, and guess what?
Answer: (they are also listed in our preferred / recommended vendor list)>
Word on the street coming in this morning is, he is in custody now.
Boat parts around the east coast are now a lot safer today, but Jerry
is still at large. Things with rust and chrome alike have been known
to disappear, so beware.
Where do i begin, the lancer is a 1973 in absolutly incredible shape. It was owned by a guy in jupiter florida for 20 years. In those twenty year he really new how to maintain an old boat. Unfortunatly he died 2 years ago and the boat wound up in his uncle yard where it slowly was deterorating. I saw the ad on craigslist and the rest is history. My plans are to make a small sportfish out of it. Im an avid freediver and fisherman in south florida. I also take many trips to the bahamas, so the fuel economy of a staight inboard, smooth riding 24 deg of deadrise, and beautiful lines sold me on it. Ive seen a couple of lancer with some really nice aluminum tops and crow nest around and look amazing. If you have any idea, please dont hesitate !!!!!!! sorry for all the miss spellings, im really not an idiot just used to apple, and cant figure out the spell check on this dam computer
I don't recall seeing a Lancer with a tower but I bet it looks pretty good. I have to say the thought of a Lancer making way from Florida to the Bahamas gives me goose bumps. The boat looks real solid. If it's solid underneath you seem to have a great boat to start with. Looking forward to seeing the project. Don't forget as a Lancer owner you must hand a "not for sale" sign on the boat. It prevents 3 a.m. knocks on the door from Jerry Namken:)
First of all the photos are great. Looks like you have a very solid starting point to work with, and this particular model is hot now and it will be getting hotter in the next few years on the collectors market. All the 23 hulls are hot, but I personally think the inboard is the hottest of the hot.
I don't know how you did whatever you did, but the photos you loaded ended up in a horizontal string and it just wasn't working. I reformatted the ones of the boat so we could at least get some of the best ones out on the net, but the fiberglass repair photos were dropped just due to the volume.
When you post from your photobucket album, look at your files and you'll see thumbnails of all your photos. When you put your mouse on a thumbnail you'll see some options light up, and one of them will be "DIRECT LINK". Copy the direct link and paste it here on the forum, so people can view it. Please don't try to copy the entire album onto one posting as it just won't work.
Hey a couple of questions for you...........is that a LH motor in that boat. It looked like the directional arrow on that pump was suggesting a LH rotation. Are you swinging a LH prop?????? Secondly, is that HEI distributor marine rated? If not, you may have some issues with the USCG and or some safety issues under that motor box. Just covering your back buddy.
Just curious about what kind of performance you are getting from the PCM and direct drive setup. As noted, John Anderson is using the direct drive on his gentlamans racers, and the 71c was also used on SLEEPER which was run a heck of a lot harder than you'll ever run your Lancer, see thread here for info on SLEEPER
Thanks for doctoring up my last post, Im not sure what i did wrong, but iam sure im not very computer literate. Cant seem to find the spell check either, but thats for another day and a diffrent couch.
It is a left hand motor with the coresponding Lh prop, I wasnt sure myself till i had it checked,and the hei is a marine mechanical distribitor with the proper wires. I havent had a chance to get it in the water yet. Im changing the water pump through hull and replacing and reglassing over the old bathroom intakes aswell. Hopefully after thanksgiving i can get in the water. It sure runs great thou, man i couldnt be happier with my purchase. Anyway on to the prop. Which has really intriged me as of late, ive read all of the info on the forum and talked to a cuple of local shops and im no closer to acessing which one will suit my particular needs best, but we will see after a water test. I belive it is a 13x13, im gonna test it and check the performance (rpm knots). then tweek it a bit. After talking to our buddy holloway he mimics your opinion on the 71c. Would love to be able to cruise at 25-28 knots, sure would make a quick ride to bimini
Thanks again paul
here goes hope i dont screw up the photos again
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Nov 23, 2011 7:24 AM
You just need to leave a space between one direct link and the other. When I looked at your files you uploaded, it was one long mega link, so all I did was add a space between each link and bingo, fixed. Html language is a funny thing, you can sneak in some things through a back door and make it work, like this entire forum (self taught by trial and error) but sometimes even if one period one
Looks like you are well into having some fun with repairs. Good going, and thanks for sending in those photos.
Actually that gives you a lot more options on ebay for hunting low cost props to try.
The reason I said I would guess a 13x13 was because this boat below two photos, is a 23 Lancer hull that has been cut down on the freeboard and wooded up for show. It has also been re-powered with a 454 as you can see, and I actually crawled under the boat to see what prop the guy was using. It was a 13x13 and I was pretty surprised. I asked him about it, said I thought that was just a boat show prop they stuck on there, but he said no, that was the one they ran and they got nearly 50 miles per hour out of it.
This boat below is also a 23 Lancer but this one is the prop pocket inboard variety as you can see in the clear water. This one has a 426B Chrysler motor. He (John Anderson, builder/owner) said he was able to get better performance from a 3 blade on the one boat, and uses a 4 blade on the other one, which I am assuming is the prop pocket.
In my dealings with Michigan Wheel (their staff Naval Architect) there was a concern about "getting enough prop under the boat" which lead me to go with the standard Chris Craft 1.5:1 reduction, as I intend to swing a big prop with the 427. John appears to have broken the concern with his direct drive, and he may well have the faster setup. My concern was the same as what Mr. Holloway said, and my own research indicated the 71c was not enough transmission for what I was going to throw at it, but alas, the SLEEPER in full race form sort of proved that worry was unfounded, as they ran that boat like they stole it for many years.
Your original hull came with the 1.5:1 gear reduction and a 15x16 cupped prop. At 4000 rpm that would deliver (on paper) a speed of around 35 miles per hour. That is the same general speed my 95 horsepower Hercules powered 17' Chris Craft Sportsman would deliver, and we slalomed and water skied with that boat for many years and had a ball. If the big Lancer 23 will go that fast in the chop, it would be a great commuter in areas with big water, crossing the bay, running out to an island, general use on the Great Lakes. My calculation for speed factors in a 4000 rpm engine speed and 15% slippage, and I am calling the cupped 16 actually a 17, so the actual water performance of the boat could be a little better if they propped it for 4200.
Your particular boat with a 13 at the same engine speed of 4000 would be doing 42 miles per hour with the direct drive, if the motor will spin it that fast. Time will tell and I am very interested in what you discover when you do the water test. What we'll need is the precise engine speed and a validated GPS boat speed if you can get it. From there we can hone in on the actual slippage factor this hull has, and we can look at other prop issues too, like pitch and cup.
Sounds like major fun to me, I can't wait to water test mine.
Im glad i could bring a bit of happiness to an otherwise rainy day. I still have a couple of kinks to work out before i start the full restoration, but it will be a suitable canvas for sure.
There is a bit of vibration at 3600 rpms, so i need to get the prop balanced. I was able to get 4500 rpms at wot, so it is pitched right. Still want more top end though, but who doesnt. Iam so pleased with the boat, i see why everybody is so passionate about these hulls.
You are experiencing a bit of offshore racing history with that hull, and a lot of Chris Craft boating history with fiberglass quality, engines, etc. too. The 23, whether it is called a Lancer or a Commander, is a robust hull and a big runabout, they ride beautifully and they out on a given day when most people will be running for cover in boats this size, the 23 Jim Wynne 24-degree hull will still be out having some fun. Naturally there will be many conditions when you simply must slow down because Mother Nature is going to win sooner or later, but for the given length, this particular open runabout is among the best there is. Yes there were lots of copies, but few were ever able to put together the ultimate style, performance, AND HULL INTEGRITY, as Chris Craft did. Several years ago I sold a Pachanga 23 for my boss. I took it out for some fun before selling it, to be sure it ran well, etc., and I was quite impressed with the speed, and I think the hull was a pretty nice hull too but don't know the spec or the degree of deadrise. I do know one thing, however, that hull had THOUSANDS of small blisters.....so it sure LOOKED GOOD, but it was pretty much posing for the photo when it came to ultimate bullet proof quality more than skin deep. Yes the Pachanga had a nice 270 horse Mercruiser, it ran great, but they missed the boat when it came to gelcoat and what else......?
Well I just counldnt pass up on another lancer. The top alone is worth what i paid for the whole thing. Its a 1975, sitting for about 4 years. I saw it on call one day last month, took forever to get hold of the owner
It has a mid 90 's 350 that's bin rebuilt , along with a paragon tranny and a 1.5 to gear reduction. However it's missing a lot of the misc parts to get it running battery, starter, water pump ,etc. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet, other than taking the top off and putting it on the blue lancer. Not sure if it's worth swapping the tranny and the gear reduction to the blue one either. The blue lancer just has the Borg Warner 71 c 1 to 1. Price and time vs performance !!!!! Any tips and advice greatly appreciated
The BW Velvet Drive 71c is probably going to be okay for that boat. The 72c is rated up to 500 horses, and the 71 is properly sized for the 350 motor. The direct drive is a possible functional choice too, as there some $80,000 23 hulls converted to the gentlamans racer format with mahogany topsides and they use the direct drive. I would think a 13" prop with 4 blades would give the boat PLENTY of bite, and might even reduce vibration in the prop tunnel. In addition, I know of one very hard driven famous race boat that had a 71c, so that is proof they are durable. With a 13' prop and direct drive, the pitch will rule; you will just have to experiment to see how much pitch the boat can handle and still get rpm up to around 4000. Remember, a 13' wheel in this hull is not necessarily a bad thing, because CC used a 13 on the 23' Commander with small block power, and in case you don't remember, those were (are) very fun boats. The prop tunnel is a little different animal but should not make much difference either way in performance.
When I did my research for a transmission for my 427 powered 23, I corresponded with the Naval Architect at Michigan Wheel. It was sort of a toss up regarding speed, rpm, power, etc. for a boat this size. In the end I defaulted to go with the gear reduction CC used, but quite honestly with the power of a 427 I really did not need to do that. There are some advantages for having gone the route I did, but in order for me to now get the performance the big dog will offer, I have to go to a very expensive custom prop. I knew that going in and I always wondered about it, so that is why I contacted the Michigan Wheel people. The gear reduction works better if you load up the boat with lots of gear and people, and I would think the smaller prop would work just fine with 2 or 3 or 4 people aboard. The Lancer is able to handle 9 people, and with a load like that you would need a gear reduction for sure and a 15" diameter wheel.