I've made a couple small posts but figured I'd start a main thread on my "new" vessel.



I decided to take up the hobby of boating in 2008, more or less randomly and without experience, by picking up a 1985 19' Bayliner Capri cuddy for $500. Since then I've done most everything possible to it, including new stringers and decks, resealing the sterndrive, external engine work, gauges, vinyl...bla bla lol. I've trailered it most everywhere but since moving to the west side of Michigan from Lansing I discovered what its like to keep it at a marina and since this season we've (my girlfriend and I) have taken up River Haven Marina in Grand Haven on the Grand River as our summer vacation home, if you will. Before this I've trailered the thing everywhere it seems but have done some somewhat long distance Great Lakes cruising with it. While it certainly isn't much in the world of boats as far as size, and certainly not of much prestige being a cheap Bayliner with (originally) shoddy build quality, I've been proud of it since I've rebuilt the thing by hand by myself.

At any rate when checking out marinas last fall we stopped at a boat dealer (Skipper Bud's in Coopersville) and happened to look at a 28' Catalina there. I suddenly became fascinated with older Chris Crafts due to the roomy layout which I perceived as being unconventional at the time, being used to walking down into express cruiser style boats with midberths. Since then I've soaked up a lot of knowledge on Roamer's, Constellation's, Sea Skiff's, Catalina's, Commander's...I decided that wooden vessels may require too much time/effort that I could give. Steel Roamer's seemed like a good idea. I didn't like the idea of fiberglass again due to my experience with stringers that I didn't want to do again. I knew the Catalina's I liked had wood encased stringers and figured that Commander's did too.

From my own thinking and opinions from others close to me I figured that due to my not-that-high income and part time college career mixed in with a car loan (that I took up before a drastic life shakeup last year) that I should at least get that out of the way first before upgrading my vessel. But, I figured it wouldn't hurt to shop craigslist and ebay, you know, to better familiarize myself with Chris Craft's...well, that turned into a daily habit during my morning breaks at work...bad idea...

As of a few weeks ago I've become the more or less proud owner of a 1971 33' Chris Craft Coho (seen it called a Catalina Sedan as well). I went and looked at it and found it to be in a condition I could take on (or so I think) and searching online indicated that these had all glass stringers which was the dealbreaker for me. I didn't remember seeing CC's like these and felt that we would like the big salon of the sedan more versus like a more conventional CC cabin layout (note that since then I found out your Commander's also have all glass stringers). The really big flybridge was cool to me as well. I bought it through ebay from a marina/dealer in St. Joseph, about 75 miles south of my marina. They said they were able to start both of its 327QA's but didn't say any more and didn't give any warranty on anything. Starboard 327 (number 2?) had a lot of water on its dipstick. It was repo-ed by the marina due to lack of storage payment, which they said was due to the owner dying and the family not caring for it. I've found gas receipts from 2007 inside though it has a Michigan registration sticker good until 2012 but at any rate I'm assuming it hasn't been floated in a while. I was able to get it for $620. Realizing that attempting to get it running decently and piloting it back over Lake Michigan wasn't the best idea, I got a few quotes to ship it over land ranging up to $1500 but found that Jeff from Anchorage Bay marine in Holland was willing to do it for much, much less. I'd suggest contacting him if you need to ship a vessel over land.

This is the Coho as it sat at Pier 33 marina



Jeff of Anchorage with his F450 and hydraulic trailer. I took the day off of work to see the move happen











And its new home out back at River Haven. Now comes why it got down to a mere $620...



Flybridge deck (old varnished plywood...?) is leaking into the salon as indicated by this light being full of water and the headliner stains. The vessel has been outside, uncovered for a while. It had a canvas cover (included) that was removed because it was sagging due to snow load, and thus the broken flybridge windshield. Also note the loose panel in the rear which was hiding some rotten wood holding up the flybridge. The same panel on the exterior is also rotten, on both sides. Why did they use a wooden cabin structure when even their wooden boats already had fiberglass cabins?



There's this board that runs under the side windows in the cabin that's rotten in a lot of places, I suspect due to the sliding windows leaking.



This shot forward of the lower helm shows extensive rot of the board mentioned above along with more rot. The panel of glass on the right is cracked and was partially open. It seems someone in the past was frustrated enough with this and sawzalled out some of the dash



Same area as seen from the forward cabin



Some plywood seen in the forward cabin. This and a few areas of the plywood beneath the side decks is bad, I'm guessing due to the caulk joint between the side deck and the cabin superstructure opening up. These areas seem fairly easy to access from inside, thankfully. Do Commander's have a similar construction? There isn't any glass underneath, just bare wood held up there in some unknown fashion. I was thinking of sawzalling these bad areas out carefully from the inside and underneath, cutting new pressure treated plywood (which will be used throughout the wood replacement process), and bonding it back with epoxy to the bottom of the side decks while putting a few countersunk screws through the side decks down into the new plywood core then covering the heads with resin/gelcoat/epoxy/marinetex...does this idea seem ok? The side decks dont truly seem soft when walking on them but they do seem wavy. Then again I weigh around 140 lbs and don't put that much pressure on them so they may feel soft anyway. Regardless I'll be drilling core samples from the bottom to seek out the bad cores.



I know these household Square D panels came with these vessels but aren't acceptable today. I'll give the system a good inspection and will replace in the near future (as in a season or two).



Starboard engine has had a lot of water in it that I've been pumping out with my vaccum oil pump. From what I've gathered there's a water cavity in the intake manifold that is prone to freezing and cracking so that will be my first place to look. I'm hoping the water was just introduced into the crankcase when the yard started the engines (they connected water to the inlets of the sea water pumps, BTW) and that it hasn't been sitting with water in the oil for years.



The rear cabin wall/bulkhead is in bad shape below the deck. I believe that's the water heater pictured in blue. Due to the wall seeming to be in salvageable condition above the deck I want to look into scarfing it together with a new piece of PT plywood below decks. I don't know yet though since I'd like to redo the rear wall with windows on each side of the door, so I might end up replacing it entirely...might take the poly resin/gelcoat route in that case



2.5kw Kohler has super low compression considering i can easily turn the crank pulley by hand in an awkward position. Yard did not attempt starting it.

I need to winterize the engines and have discovered the preferred method, utilizing a bucket to catch the exhaust and hold antifreeze, a pump between that and the sea water pump, and running the engine (draining it first) a while to get antifreeze though everything. I attempted to start number 1 the other day but found that it wasn't getting fuel. I'm not really able to diagnose the fuel system at this time...hell I don't even know if there's a drop in the tanks since I've been busy and the boat's 40 minutes away. I'll be working on it quite a bit this winter but I do need to winterize them before the cold really hits. I plan on draining water from all the plugs and petcocks then adding antifreeze into the hoses and letting it flow into every passage and chamber possible. Thankfully a marina neighbor with a 32' Cavalier sent me a copy of the engine service manual telling where all the drains were. I find it interesting that it doesn't mention adding any antifreeze.

Any tips, comments, questions so far? I hope to get it seaworthy again by this spring.

I posted extensively about my Bayliner restoration on the iBoats message board but this place seems to be the best place for classic CC's. Lots of interesting reading in old posts and the master library

I honestly don't think you can even come close to matching the information and technology available here for your project.

Here are a few examples



OMG look at that shag carpet.......a sign of the times!!!!!!!



Go here for a great start into the database. The more you look, the more you will find.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/424840/message/1213392179

Regards,

Paul

Hey Philip,

You are to be congratulated for jumping into the boating hobby like this. You obviously have the bug and the ability do do some or all of your own work and in these times that makes a huge difference. You will eventually be able to get into a cruiser for pennies on the dollar doing this, but it will still take cash and a LOT of work.

The Commanders have no wood in the wet zone, although engine stringers are wood for fastening engines to, they are mounted on tall fiberglass box beams above the water zone in the bilge. In fact, much of the reinforcement in a Commander hull is from these hollow transverse and longitudinal fiberglass box beams, and that is a very strong and durable way to build. There is no wood core in the wetted hull. I do not know if this same thing can be said about the Coho, but we can (and will) find out. The Coho has a nice look to it, and it has a HUGE interior space and utility, so this should be one heck of a fun boat to have when you are done.

Working on a boat you MUST not ever use an inappropriate wood type because it is likely to deteriorate before you ever get the boat in the water. Much of the support on some of the early Commanders like my 1966 38 is built with solid mahogany lumber. The entire galley support is built of mahogany lumber. Since doing that today is going to be nuts because of the cost, I would recommend a white oak, it is durable and weather resistant enough to have been used in the bilge of the Chris Craft Sea Skiff boats. Natually, sealing this wood is important too.

Headliner is easy......once removed....you can do all the work you need to do and then call in a pro to put a new one back for you. This is one job I would not do myself, because the pros have the tools and the knowhow to seam and tuck, etc., and they will do it like a new boat.

I suppose you can use pressure treated plywood in some areas, but I don't like the stuff on boats because I think it has salts in it to preserve the wood and that can get into fasteners and wiring, and I think you are just better off using marine plywood. You can get the stuff at most big plywood supply houses, just ask for fir based marine plywood, you don't have to use the mahogany stuff for structural issues.

When it comes to woodwork around the helm, you can (and should) bite the bullet and get some mahogany marine plywood, refinish the entire helm and use the plywood to replace any deteriorated pieces, stain and varnish everything at the same time and it will look like it was built that way. There are many examples here in THE FORUM to show how this can be done properly.

The Square D panels are original, I just took the faces off mine, sanded and primed them, and sprayed them with a nice original color gray and now they look new. Inside there was no deterioration.

When you get to the engines and transmissions then there will be a day of reckoning. On many CC motors the only thing they recommended to do was to drain ALL of the drain points, including those on risers, blocks, pumps, EVERYTHING. By doing this CC knew they designed the drains to avoid freeze pockets in the boat, but I must not speak for your particular installation because it may be different, so you must look and be very careful about how you do this. I would drain the oil in the motors, chances are the oil is still in there and since oil floats on water if you put the drain tube at the bottom of the sump you will soon know if there is any water in there. The good news is if there is a little, since it may be just limited to the bottom perhaps it did not get into the pickup and cause any rust. I guess I would replace the oil too and certainly seal off the tops of the motors to assure you are not getting water seepage into the intake manifolds. If you drain everything down and use a little antifreeze too, you should be good. Beware, antifreeze is toxic to dogs, and it only takes a lick or two to kill one. Use the non toxic stuff.

Some of the generators of this era had a recall for the exhaust manifold, be sure to look at yours to be sure it is in good shape. Also, ANYONE running a generator MUST have a carbon monoxide detector on board......don't ever run one without it. Monoxide builds slowly in the blood stream and then when a person really is not aware they get sleepy and never wake up.

So you have yourself a real project, and I admire your adventure. Go for it. The project may take a year or three, but in the end you'll have a cruiser that is loads of fun and we have many experts here on this forum who can give you assistance on every inch of the boat.

regards,

Paul

Nice looking boat. Looks like a lot of work, but will be worth it when you're done. I really like the lines.
Two recommendations if I may (based on my car restoration experience)
1. Don't underestimate the value of your family/friends as your "support group". There will days that you will sit and stare at your project and wonder what the heck you've gotten yourself in to.. if the family is "on board" with the project, you'll have a lot fewer of those days. Share with them both the ups and downs. We often take this for granted.
2. Because the engines are an unknown, and you suspect water inside, I'd recommend you pull the engines and take them apart before Winter.
It will solve your winterizing issue, and then you'll know what you have to do in the future. No reason you have to rebuild them now unless you want to, but having the knowledge of their condition will put you way ahead. If they're junk, at least you'll know. If they can be saved but have water in them, you take a serious chance of them "crossing that line" before you get to them.
They're pretty much standard GM/Chevy small blocks. Any buddy who works on GM stuff can take one of these motors apart in a couple of hours.

Paul,
Do they make stern davits big enough so he can hang his Bayliner?

Ken

I agree that support helps though in the past I've been able to keep going in bad conditions...id be cutting plywood for my Bayliner late at night outside with snow falling, having to brush it off to find where the line was to run my jigsaw on. I wouldn't call it fun but definitely rewarding. At least I shouldn't have to cut and grind glass.

I would pull the engines but I don't have the best facilities anymore...my Bayliner project was done over winter in a heated barn...now I live in an apartment 40 minutes away from the Coho and while I do have access to a small shop its back in Lansing...quite a logistical problem. For the time being I plan on putting fresh oil in number 2 and firing it up long enough to circulate the oil a little, draining, repeating. Hourmeter on number 1 shows 2800 or so, number 2 is over 3400...didn't spend much time at the dock it seems.

And I seriously want to build a larger, heavier duty platform or add davits because I have a 70s Amphicat 6x6 AATV that would serve as an awesome landing craft and make everyone with a dinghy jealous lol

Thanks so far guys

------->forget the davits
With all the tasks needed to be done, "davits" would be so far down my list as to get moved into another lifetime,

Sorry I didn't mean to rain on the parage, couldn't resist.

best,

Paul

I'll get to davits or something for carrying my landing craft lol. I do agree that I have a lot of other more pressing projects on board. That's up there with things like my alcantara headliner, flybridge sink, fridge, and blender, fancy countertops, recessed cup lights...structural, powertrain, safety, and basic cosmetics are my priorities. But until then northing's wrong with thinking up sweet ideas

Philip,

I have a list of sweet ideals as long as my arm, but I am starting to prioritize than or I'll never get finished with my 36' Commander.

Great looking boat, it sounds like you will be enjoying the project as well as the ride.

Glenn

...to launch an amphibious assault on the local establishment of the "seller of fine spirits" from a Chris Craft. You could drive right up to the door.
If you do that, you really must mount a loudspeaker so you can loudly play Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries" on the way to the beach...

I get chills when I hear of marine engines that are suspected of being wet inside. Same story when I picked up my Lancer with a 283FLV... so pulled the engine immediately so I could figure out my "plan". Sure enough, the engine WAS wet inside... cylinders, oil pan, intake, you name it. Block water passages solid with corrosion and salt deposits as were the exhaust manifolds and risers. Beyond saving for any reasonable amount of effort and money.

[IMG][/IMG]



Ken

I know some of the trailered Hercules powered runabouts from time to time get in the salt but they get flushed royally, and quite honestly I would never do it. It's just an unnecessary accelerated failure rate.

regards,

Paul

Paul,
Its all relative, isn't it?
After all, its pretty clear that the 283FLV in my Lancer Express:

1. Was original to the boat.
2. Was used almost exclusively in salt water off the East Coast.
3. Based on the cylinder top ridge, had lots of hours on it (no hour meter).
4. Was raw sea water cooled.
5. Crank/pistons were NOT seized although the seller thought they were. Starter was seized.

and 6, .... wait for it...

Was salt water cooled for about 40 years before it failed.

After forensic exam of the engine parts after complete disassembly, I believe that it finally died of overheating issues.

The purpose of me posting the pix is simply that you can't tell what the engine's condition is until you look inside. Doesn't take long and can save lots of time and money later.
The other alternative is to simply assume any engine that you don't have the specific history on is junk.... and hope for the best.

The good news is that salt water doesn't eat fiberglass!

Regards, Ken

My marina has stripped and disposed of a few wooden CC's that were rotten beyond salvage but have a few 327s laying around. I've seen them priced reasonably on craigs too.

I haven't seen an amphibious 6x6 carried on a boat yet. Yacht owners think they're so cool carrying PWC's...

Ill be with the vessel this Sunday to setup my canvas support structures and mess with number 2. And winterize number 1. If I suck the oil/water mix out, refill with new, and disconnect the belt running the sea water pump would it be alright to start and run it for a moment as long as I don't let it get too hot? Im thinking like 15-30 seconds at the most. I figure if it can just build oil pressure and run the new stuff through it passages it'll help to flush the water out of the bearings and all. Id suck the oil out again and repeat a couple times. Id run a temporary line to a 1 gallon gas can to eliminate any fuel delivery issues that ill get to later

Hey there Phil,

First of all I don't think running the motor for 10 to 15 seconds would hurt, done all the time. The cold iron has a built in ability to soak up that heat. I wouldn't go much beyond it. Regarding the other mtoor that will not start, what is the issue? Will it crank?

Tom

I was cranking it last weekend. It was not getting gas but fired on ether. I was running out of daylight and the starter motor was making some noises indicating it wants to die...ill try again this Sunday though using my proposed 1 gal gravity fed gas can. I just haven't had much time to spend on the boat yet...no clue if it has a drop of gas in the tanks even

I would use some care with that second engine and you may well be able to save it (or both). Slow cranking can be a function of the battery or battery connection. If it fired on ether that means you must be getting ignition sparks, and if the other motor will acutally run, you could always swap carbs if you think the second one is a problem due to carb. It sure would be nice to hear both of them run, huh?

Good luck with them,

Tom

I found the cooling water drain plug for the oil cooler on number 2 but couldn't find it on number 1, pictured below. Can anyone point me in the direction to where it's at?



And is there a reason why number 2 has a larger, different looking trans than number 1? Number 2 is mounted higher as well

Today I was able to remove ALL the drain plugs and petcocks aside from the one mentioned above. I also used a turkey baster to remove the water from the intake manifolds and dumped antifreeze in there. Did a little cleaning as well in the bilge but not much. Hoping to be able to run a shopvac in there soon. To see if the engines would fire up I rigged up a can directly to the carb and was able to briefly get number 1 to run for a couple seconds. Would have tried again and also tried number 2 but the battery from my Bayliner wasn't holding enough to keep cranking...seems it cranks great for 10-15 seconds which is plenty enough to start the 3.0L (counting something doesn't go wrong and more cranking is necessary). Wanted to get some 2x4's to better support the canvas but didn't get to that today, again. I'm hoping to make it back during the week to fix that issue and will be back next weekend to try starting them again.

The engine serial tag often has a tag like 350 2.0, or 350 2.5, which would denote a 350 motor and a 2.0:1 or 2.5:1 gear reduction, but looking at the photos I can not tell if it is the HJ or P series Paragon, it seems like it is the P series.

If you have two differen size transmission, uhhh ohhhh, hmmmmm. Oh well, that's why they call it "boating". If everything went like clockwork and there was no sheer terror they would call it something else.

best,

paul

A marina-neighbor was out while I was messing with my canvas support system tonight and I took a look at the drives in his 327 Cavalier. His transmissions looked the same as my number 1 aside from mine having a V drive bolted to it. And his for sure was a P34. Where's the oil cooler drain for it?

I forgot to take a better pic of the drives, but this is the one on number 2...I found near the bottom, on the side, there's plugs on each side that take a 1/2'' ratchet. I pulled one and had a decent amount of water come out so I'm not too worried about this side.

Still need to figure out where the water drain is on number 1...

My marina neighbor with the Cavalier (a 30' or so) believes they drain when you open the petcock for the hose that runs below the engine and connects the seawater pump to everything else. This sound about right?

Can't see the trans but that side has a Walters v drive

Oil coolers can be drained by removing the water hose on the downhill side, unless there is some fitting installed for this purpose.

Didn't realize you had vdrives in that boat, now I understand why I didn't see a shaft on the photo you posted.

Tom

I may have neglected to mention that fact. And this is a Catalina Division boat on a Commander board after all haha.

Anyway I'll go ahead and try removing the line going to it to see if anything drains out though from what I remember, I looked into that but it seemed like the inlet and outlet for the hoses were pretty high on the unit and it didn't seem like they would drain much. In a last ditch effort I may bring an air tank and try to blow out any remaining contents.

I did some general cleaning, including working on getting the rotten convertible couch out of the salon. I threw the cushions in the marina dumpster and broke the rest of it in half and will be "dosing" it to the dumpster in the next few weekends.

Put power to number 2 but it seems the starter is bad...even when putting power via a big orange screwdriver and jumper cable from a battery to the motor (not the solenoid) it won't spin. Bendix engages but not helping obviously. Motor turns with pliers on the crank pulley and I pulled the plugs out...no signs of water in there thankfully. Will deal with this bad starter next...this is rather inconvenient since I'm still wanting to circulate oil in the thing to get the remains of the milkshake out. With working overtime and school I haven't had the time to really mess with it. Tried beating on it with a hammer but to no avail.

Plenty of rot in the salon's sole, at least in the back. woo hoo, what fun. These cabin soles weren't glassed from the factory were they?

Philip,

I had to chuckle about the term you used, "dosing the dumpster", I know EXACTLY what that means. Been there, done that.

The initial clean up with a new project boat requires a dumpster for sure and getting rid of all that junk is a big step in gaining access to whatever else needs to be done. Janet and I hauled hundreds of pounds of junk out of our 38 when we got it, and I dare say some of those "spare parts" we inherited are still aboard 15 years later. I don't think CC glassed over any wood, sole or otherwise, in the Commander and I really am not all that familar with the Coho other than the visual signature and basic specs, so I certainly stand to learn a lot about this very intersting Chris Craft model. They have a lot of appeal, they are fixable, and once done you'll have a rare one. I see 38 Commanders around here and there but the Coho models were sold in smaller numbers (I think) simply because you just don't see many. Therefore having a restored one it an extra amount of fun.

Keep us posted on your progress, like I said, I will be learning a lot about the boat through your posts.

best,

Paul

Despite the 40 mph gusts I was out with the Coho for a few hours today. I removed the suspected bad starter on number 2 and with my foot on it against the ground it seemed to spin fine. Reinstalled, removed the spark plugs, and it turned the engine alright though a little slow, so I suspect it's just on its way out. I did pull the numbers off the starter to seek replacement though.

I noticed a little plug by the oil filter and figured that it may be able to pump oil with the starter alone...with the plug pulled it indeed pumped oil just with cranking. I put the plug back and cranked it a while and put my siphon pump back to action on the milkshake. I'll be doing this at least a few more times.

Pulled out some of the junk carpet and padding out of the salon.

What are the views on wood around here? I'll need some plywood for the cabin sole, the side deck core, the edge around the cockpit where the deck pieces sit, the flybridge deck, the cabin superstructure, and the rest of the supports for the cockpit deck pieces (so basically ALL the wood).

For plywood, should I invest in marine plywood? Does the species matter? I found out that pressure treated shouldn't be used indoors (at least with houses but I'll apply that to boats too). Can I just use readily available exterior grade for like my cabin sole, that shouldn't ever be exposed to water? I'm thinking I'll be glassing over the flybridge deck so I would guess that exterior ply would also be ok for that, but what about my cabin structure? My experience comes from the iBoats board where they loooove to coat their plywood with epoxy on both sides but they're usually working with 18' bowriders. What do you guys do? For like the cockpit deck supports should do I really need to use mahogany? Or oak? I got thinking of cutting strips of PT plywood and epoxy-ing them together to replace those boards.

Personally I would not even use non-marine plywood for an under-seat support, it just will NOT last in the marine environment. Secondly, the 1968 35 (wood) Sea Skiff I used to own had a hull made up of 1/2" marine plywood strips in the form of lapstrake planks. I used what my local lumber yard referred to as a "fir based marine plywood" and that is what you should use for anything that is not going to be stained and finished bright.

For exposed mahogany areas then you need to bite the bullet and have some mahogany plywood shipped in, as there is no substitute. I used ribbon cut veneer on mine, the results were very good and it matched the original wood CC used, especially because I stained it all at the same time during a major upgrade.









Here are some wood working tips that have worked for me in the past, for inside and outside applications.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/424840/message/1131059156




Regards,

Paul

Marine plywood it will be. Do I need to replace the dimensional mahogany that supports the cockpit deck with mahogany too or can that be substituted? Or can I just laminate up some marine ply?

I wish the Coho had more brightwork in the interior but it seems a lot of it came painted, though I haven't tried sanding it yet. The galley cabinets and such are simulated veneer. The starboard side has some real stuff though along with the rear bulkhead. Your brightwood looks amazing BTW

I would not go with mahogany for unseen structure, I would default to white oak. White Oak is good enough to be used as steam bent frames in the original Chris Craft Sea Skiff boats, exposed to water, and therefore it should be just fine if it is sealed and kept out of the wet zone. No need to spend the $ on dimensional mahogany, it is too rare and costly for that use any more. Back when these boats were built, they had train loads of mahogany and that is what they used for everything. My 1966 38 Commander Express has dimensional mahogany supporting the entire galley structure!

Paul

This place is near Sandusky. A nice Website for cost estimates and the tell you what wood to use for the application
I have not purchased anything from them but there close and have a nice website

http://marine-plywood.us/

Though the owner of a lapstrake Owens at my marina linked me to there already lol. They're within a half reasonable driving distance so I may end up sourcing from there. LL Johnson lumber in Charlotte, MI has special lumber as well so I have at least a couple places to shop from

I have used Nautical Lumber in Warren, MI. Mike Stennett is great to work with (586) 777-1288.
www.NauticalLumber.com

Bob

For wood on my cabin structure, which will be replaced with marine ply, what should I do to "seal" it? The existing stuff seems to have simply been painted. Is priming/painting enough for this kind of thing? Should I soak it with epoxy first? Glass it? I didn't have to do with really any exposed wood like this with my Bayliner

'71 33' Catalina Coho Sedan under restoration

Wood in the cabin or helm station, or in my opinion "anywhere" on a boat should be coated with a bilge coat (paint) or a coat of varnish as a sealer. If it is hidden underneath your galley for instance where nobody will see it, it does not matter what is used as a sealer as long as it is sealed. In the engine compartment or anywhere basically in view if it is not varnished brightwork it should be probably painted the same color as the bilge (in this case a light gray in color). Any stained mahogany that is finished bright in the cabin or helm station should be varnished in the standard tratidion, IMHO.

If you have something that is going to get wet, then you could consider an epoxy, and might even paint it too.



There is a running battle between varnish and some other type of finish that is better than varnish. So far the only thing I have ever seen that looks better on mahogany or teak is wearing a bikini

Gloss on the outside, satin on the inside




http://www.network54.com/Forum/424840/message/1157664700



There are some guys who swear by Cetol, and they actually have boats with motors too

best,

Paul

But what about my cabin exterior? Counting it will get wet though, from what you said, epoxy and painting will work

Here's a good way to go sealing your exterior wood.
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=533&title=Epoxy+Sealing+with+Natural+Wood+Appearance+-+Smith+%26+Co.
Have heard good things about it and am experimenting with it myself.
Good luck.
-Eric

CPES is definitely under consideration. My other plan was to glass the exterior wood with a layer or two of something light, like 4-6 oz glass using epoxy. Then fairing and painting. It ought to last pretty much forever if done like that



'71 33' Catalina Coho Sedan under restoration
'85 Bayliner Capri 19' cuddy 3.0L OMC, new deck and stringers
'87 Kawasaki JS650SX
'70 Amphicat 6x6 AATV (future Coho tender)

'74 Buick LeSabre Luxus convertible, '07 Subaru Forester 5MT

Just wanted to comment on the fiberglass in one aspect that may not have been addressed, and that with insurance agencyies now a days they are EXTREMELY criticle of glassing over wood and demand core samples and visuals while doing this process and all sorts of hoops and hollars. This is true in most states today and those states who havnt yet, soon will be so be carefull. The reason is to many bad applications in the past where in the beginning alot of people did not know the corect way and infact back then they hadnt established the corect way. So, know what your doing first before you cause a lot of grief

My State Farm agent said I didn't need a survey or anything to insure the Coho (and I haven't had to do anything regarding insuring my Bayliner since restoring it).

I can see how some companies would be critical of such stuff (I know they can require surveys). I'll keep good photo documentation as the restoration continues in case my agent or I switch to another company where it matters.

Today I ran more oil through number 2 for the 3rd or 4th time but still coming out like creamed coffee. This will continue for a while.

No real, new progress due to a temporary financial crunch (you know how it goes). Next time I'd like to start on removing the flybridge...

'71 33' Catalina Coho Sedan under restoration

Rain today varied between sprinkling and drizzling but I decided to try to get some work done. I've figured out to remove the port-aft corner of the canvas to sneak in and still keep things covered.



My Coho has the grey canvas. The pulpit in the corner is from a 36' or so Formula. My boat is followed by a 38' Commander with aft cabin, a 37' steel Roamer, and a 42' Commander. I may be slightly off on their descriptions

I'll be replacing the canvas...it's at least a semi-custom fitted boat cover and not in bad shape aside from a couple small holes but its porous and soaking in the rain. Running my hand on the inside will get it wet. Its getting rain to leak through where the canvas touches the boat like on the edges of the flybridge and despite the canvas covering the entire topside its letting a steady trickle into the salon through the gap between the side decks and cabin along with the cabin windows. I'll pick up a poly tarp from Harbor Freight soon to replace it.

Oil sucked out of number 2 is starting to look more like clean oil.

I started ripping out rotten wood in the port-aft corner of the salon. Its suffered from some long term water intrusion as you'll see.



I removed the interior panel in the starboard-aft corner of the salon. The exterior panel is shot but I think the angled piece can stay.



Same place but the starboard side I was working in. Everything here seems to be shot. The angled piece has been sistered to before.



Someone put a piece of OSB (rotten) over the section covering the water heater lines. The rest of the panels are plywood, some with veneer, and mahogany strips for screws to hold the panels together.



Got some of it out which required my reciprocating saw. I didn't have a stubby philips screwdriver to get out the screws in the wood that wasn't rotten.

Before I left I dug into the paperwork I found in a galley drawer. In the mix of loran and microwave instruction manuals I found a copy of an ebay listing for the vessel from 2003! From what I can tell it sold for $7647.00, a far cry from the $620 I paid. It lists the "new carpet throughout" which I'm having to rip out, along with "one new transmission" (which may explain why I have an oddball V drive). Engines were rebuilt 3 years ago with 140 hours on them. It seemed to have been listed by someone other than the owner for it first states that it has 454s but has a revision saying that the owner says they're 327s but were bored and stroked to be 405s...I was thinking that 383 was the max a SMB could be increased to. It also says it has a top speed of 46 knots (lol) and cruises nicely at 27-28...from what I gather the Coho maxes out at a little over 20 mph. 46 knots would be fun but I think it would need blown 572's or something. Or twin turbo Seamasters. Ad mentions rot on the under side of the front of the flybridge, which I can see has been replaced in a sloppy manner, along with rotting windshield bases (which it still has, or has again now). Ad states the Kohler generator runs good but like I've mentioned it was virtually no compression (can turn it quickly by turning the crank by hand, with my thumb over the spark plug hole). My rear cabin wall isn't in very good shape but is different than the one pictured in the ad so I figure someone replaced it and either used crappy varnish or let it go to hell. There are a pair of mystery tinted glass panels on board which I can now see were in the rear cabin wall. The topside decks had Nautilex (Nautolex? Nautilux? Nautolux?) but is textured gelcoat.

Until then...



'71 33' Catalina Coho Sedan under restoration

Congrats on the oil issue, sure would be nice if the motors can be revived to live again.

As for all of the woodwork, I recommend a Makita (or similar) type mitre saw, these darn things can do just about anything short of table saw long board work. Be sure to use white oak for the supports and marine plywood for anything on board you replace with plywood, you can use the fir based marine ply but don't even thing about using CDX plywood, as I can tell you it will not live long in the marine environment. I used it for some seat bottoms on a speedboat years ago, thinking it would work, but one day I stepped on one of the cushions and my foot went right on through.

The attention to water infiltration is key. Use the proper sealant! Avoid using hardware white bathtub caulking, I know you are doing the job properly but I just had to toss that comment in, because in my architectural career I have discovered one of the most dangerous guys on a job site (from an aesthetic point of view) is a man holding a caulking gun (filled with white sealant).

Hmmm lets see, shop vac, mitre saw, assortment of drill bits and counter sinks, lots of long stainless steel screws, gorilla glue, polysulfide (LifeCaulk) oh don't forget the duct tape

Good luck, keep the faith.

Paul

There was a 32' plywood Cavalier in the line of CC's but for some reason it was moved to the other side of the lot. Also at my marina is a 25' Catalina, a 33' Commander sedan (a Murray one), a 32' or so Amerosport, and a 57' Constellation.

My experience with boats and wood points to CDX as being good for things that will be totally encapsulated...the stringers in my Bayliner are CDX and with how I constructed them I'm confident they won't ever see moisture or water. But anyway, marine ply and white oak are on the list.

Working as a plumber I saw some really nasty white caulk jobs...this project as my last one will feature 3M marine stuff.

I have a jigsaw and a sawzall as far as wood cutting goes. I have a 1200 watt (continuous) inverter I'll be adding to my car for power.

'71 33' Catalina Coho Sedan under restoration

I am not questioning your workmanship, nor am i arguing, but I personally would never use CDX on a boat, encapsulated or otherwise. Water has a way of getting in, and deterioration in a non-marine rated product is a big risk to take. Personally, I would rather use the appropriate wood, than to try to make the poseur work by going to extra measures and taking a chance there is a screw hole somewhere admitting some moisture. You know the 1/2 fir based marine ply is good for planking on the bottom of a Chris Craft Sea Skiff, there would be NO WAY that I would ever use encapsulated CDX for that job, or any other job on a boat. If we used CDX on the bottom of a Sea Skiff it would only be a matter of time before the boat would sink. Go with the proper wood, don't waste your time trying to make the other stuff work, the delta in cost between the two is not that much and you know the good stuff will last a LONG time and you will never regret it.

Just my two cents.

Regards,

Paul

...its better than what Bayliner put in there haha. Counting that flotation foam from the factory was able to get in between the glass and the wood inside the stringers, and that they didn't use anything special, anything I put back is lightyears better.

BUT

The Coho will be receiving marine ply and other proper woods. I heard on another board that Menards has mahogany pretty cheap so I might check into that

'71 33' Catalina Coho Sedan under restoration

Dude, I saw the photo of the Bayliner, my heart sank for you, but hey I am sure it was a learning experience and well you have to start somewhere.
My advice now is to pull all your 401K money out of Europe, invest in classic Lancers, and lose the Bayliner like a cheap pink tie. My ties, by the
way may be pink, but they are not cheap.

Your friend and fellow boating enthusiast,

Don

I gutted the hull completely and glassed in a new deck and stringers, made my own interior, tore down the sterndrive...I've basically been there, done that with everything on it. Bayliner quality sucks, but hey, 19' caddy's at $500 are all pretty much the same lol

.......that was me by the way, sorry could not resist. All in good fun.

best,

Paul

I didn't get to do any real work but stopped by and let off a bug bumb...pretty much winter but spiders are still crawling and I don't like spiders...



and my girlfriend took this for me

At any rate, I put an Interlux barrier coat on my Bayliner last spring before bottom painting. Trailer boat all its life but kept it in a slip this season. How's a trailer boat get blisters...come on, Bayliner quality for you.

I've read that CC used excellent materials including resins, and our glass boats may not have blisters even after all these years. Mine doesn't. I'm not certain that it doesn't already have an epoxy carrier coat but do you guys suggest putting one on? I'm far from this stage of the restoration but it came to mind earlier today

'71 33' Catalina Coho Sedan under restoration
'85 Bayliner Capri 19' cuddy 3.0L OMC, new deck and stringers
'87 Kawasaki JS650SX
'70 Amphicat 6x6 AATV (future Coho tender)

'74 Buick LeSabre Luxus convertible, '07 Subaru Forester 5MT

Not inexpensive but no downside I know about to the boat. If it were me, I would probably use a couple coats of good bottom paint, leaving as much of the existing build on the boat. No need to remove perfectly good protective coating, only to replace it with a coat that is not even as thick.

I will probably be outvoted on this approach, as I have seen some of the boats here with bottoms as slick as new. Unless you are trying to break a speed record or impress the workers around the marina, spending that kind of time on the bottom is questionable to me.

Tom

I stopped by the Coho last Saturday and got a little done. The rotting cabin sole has sagged from where it sits on the port side stringer and heads towards the hull. Is there anything wrong with tabbing the new cabin sole to the side of the hull? The galley cabinets have followed the sole a bit but I figure it should be correctable with a new sole and top. I need to remove it to get to the sole and I'm removing allllll those bronze screws to remove the galley without getting the sawzall out. CC didn't skimp on making sure it was well anchored down. The mahogany of the cabinets is solid. Finish here is plastic veneer.

I didn't have my camera but I've been removing the plywood sides below the windows that extend out to underneath the side decks (is there a better term for this?). There's the holes to stick things back in there. Some of this plywood (and attached dimensional mahogany strips) are rotten and it's in the way of the sole so I've been hacking it out. Above this someone has stuck a PT 2x6 to reinforce the side decks with some type of adhesive. Might be PL, epoxy...dunno lol. I think I ought to get one of those oscillating electric things (think harbor freight) to get this out and properly fix the wood supporting the side decks. I want to call it the "core" but to me it isn't quite a core since it isn't encapsulated in glass.

Not much else new...haven't gotten far but I like replying to make sure you guys don't think I've given up lol



'71 33' Catalina Coho Sedan under restoration
'85 Bayliner Capri 19' cuddy 3.0L OMC, new deck and stringers
'87 Kawasaki JS650SX
'70 Amphicat 6x6 AATV (future Coho tender)

'74 Buick LeSabre Luxus convertible, '07 Subaru Forester 5MT

Paul, Philip and All:
Philip, it is usually a bad idea to glass the deck to the hull as I understand your description without leaving 3/4 inch gap between the two. The glass can act as a bridge across this gap. The reason is that if you hit something with the deck solid to the hull, a bulge with a dent below and above will be left where the deck material is. Using fiberglass as a bridge gives sufficient flexibility to the hull to retain its shape. Most bulkheads are crafted this way.

As much trouble as it is, I would try to remanufactor the issue as close to original as possible as this is what it was designed for. Some pictures would be helpful of course.

Keep up the good work. It is all fun! PS, I used to drive an Executive from rodeo to rodeo in my younger days. What a CAR! Yes, they CAN pull a boat.
Jerry

I understand you Commander owners don't really have wooden structural issues but I thought I'd share. I decided to look over things today...

First thing I've noticed is this crack along one of the chines about 2/3's of the way forward on the starboard side.



Then there's this small section in the hull about halfway between the keel and the outermost chine (sorry if I'm not using the best terms). I don't think this is that bad. Don't know how it happened but its fairly small. It goes into the glass strands but I don't think fixing this will be a big deal after doing stringers in my Bayliner. I figured that these two small issues may be part of a larger issue.



Anyway, theres been quite a bit of rain leaking into the salon due to the joint between the side decks and the vertical side of the cabin not being caulked. This has made some sections of the sole rot along with the supporting woo underneath the side decks. There's some visible sagging in them. In recent history someone has stuck some PT 2x6 up there in a vain effort to resupport the decks. This is all fairly accessible so I intend to rip out the bad wood and cobblejob (just a reminder lol).

The cabin sole is not supported past the outer stringers and is not tabbed to the hull. I figure that with the rot it has simple settled. Under the junk you can see that here in the rear



The problem is that I decided to "step back" and "take in the whole picture". It appears to me that the sole remains flat in the center as it sits on top of the center stringers but dips downward as it extends towards the sides of the hull. This has got me worried that the hull is suffering from some major deformation issues. I didn't suspect this could happen though due to the design of the box stringers and hull (the Commander forum guys portray the image of these early Chris Craft fiberglass boats as being indestructible and immune from the effects of neglect). I don't believe these really have bulkheads and that the hull is supposed to be "self supporting".

Note that for some reason I didn't take notice of the sole bridging between the inner and outer stringers. I should have done this...

I noticed this issue because the galley cabinets/counter on the port along with the cabinets and counter that house the fridge on the starboard side are definitely sloped downwards to the sides of the hull. I've been thinking that this is just because of the rotten sole but figured I need to ask people with more knowledge than I have.



Sorry this image is sideways (rotate it clockwise 90 degrees). The bulkhead is the walkway to the forward cabin and the other vertical edge is the lower helm station. You can see they definitely don't match.



You can see the tube that runs to the flybridge is not sitting properly on top of the lower helm. This surface is also noticeably sloped downwards to the side.



The boat appears to be pretty close to level as its blocked now and the location where it was picked up from. But notice the rust stains in the shower base...when standing in the shower you can definitely tell that its sloped down to the outside (port).



This has me pretty worried. I'm not sure what this is called in wooden boat terms but plywood is part of the cabinets on the starboard side but runs up and serves as a support for the flybridge.



Here's this view if it helps



NOTE: this is a shot from another Coho I googled just to better explain where this is...the wood in question is right behind the microwave on the starboard. I'm not certain how this wood is attached to anything but I was under the impression that it's tabbed to the sides of the hull.

What is the problem? Is it as bad as it might be? I still think it's because of the sole being rotten, and with it not because supported between the outer stringers and the hull (a good distance), and with it not touching the hull of being tabbed to it, it has simply succumbed to gravity and the weight of the cabinets or whatever on it. With the cabinets removed I can replace the sole, fix the flybridge supports and side deck supports, put the cabinets back, and everything will be square again.

Or is it something really bad, like the hull getting deformed after years of being supported on its keel rather than the chines (*shrug* but I heard Constellations don't like being supported that way) and the hull is a lot cause and I should strip it and send it to the dump.

'71 33' Catalina Coho Sedan under restoration
'85 Bayliner Capri 19' cuddy 3.0L OMC, new deck and stringers
'87 Kawasaki JS650SX
'70 Amphicat 6x6 AATV (future Coho tender)

'74 Buick LeSabre Luxus convertible, '07 Subaru Forester 5MT

First of all, good job with the photos, they are worth a thousand words for sure.

Secondly, I am not all that familiar with the Coho construction, and as I recall I think they were built in Asia to Chris Craft specs, but still need a refresher on this.

Some of the damage you see was probably done during handling. The crack along the chine should probably be drilled either completely or segmented if there is still good glass there, and completely filled with wet epoxy so as to assure saturation of the fibers and eliminate any water migration along the crack. I had a similar crack to fix due to a truck transport issue 15 years ago and I have never even been able to find the patch since. The nice thing about a drill hole in this medium, if you fill it with epoxy the epoxy will go through the hole and sag down and actually form a hook to hold it firm. It will form a plug that is impossible to pull out, co if you treat that crack with a linear plug, and glass it both sides, it will be fixed well. The drill holes filled with epoxy act like a rivet.


This one looks patched already, improperly, possibly with bondo.


Some of the decks that were exposed to the weather were pitched to the sides in order to drain. I don't think they did this on the interior. You can sight down the exterior of the hull to see if it has hogged, but I doubt it. I would think the hull was pretty much cast like a Commander and then wood was used to support the floors, etc. I would be suprised if there are structural bulkheads for the hull, but the bulkheads would provide structure for the floor and cabin interior.........that is my guess.


On runabouts they bonded wood nailers to the fiberglass like this, but I doubt if they also used this quick and dirty method on cruisers.


In this photo below CC literally hung the floor support from a piece of plywood, keeping the plywood up off the wet hull bottom assuming it would get wet at some time with bilge splash or whatever. While keeping it dry was one thing, I really did not want to entrust a couple of lateral screws to hold the weight of the big guys I have as friends, one of which is in the 250 pound range, so I shimmed the floor structure off the bottom of the hull just in case.


If the sides have sagged, as you contend and the photos suggest, then I would look at what provided the original support (as you are doing) and simply jack things back up to level and secure it there. I like the wedge and epoxy method of doing the final adjustments, you can just tap them where you need the adjustment, and when the epoxy cures up they are not going anywhere.



Regards,

Paul

I need to decode my HIN and get the mariner's museum data on my particular boat. I was thinking the 38' was made in asia (China I think) from some article I read online, somewhere, but the 33' was made in Pompano Beach. There's an old magazine review of it where it seems they picked it up from headquarters (assuming it was built there) and taking it to Cape Canaveral to watch Apollo 16 (I think it was 16).

The second hull crack truly does seem to be Bondo. I opened it up with my knife and a flat screwdriver before taking the pic. When I get to it I'll grind it down a bit to at least get the Bondo or w/e out. I've heard of drilling out the ends as you mentioned and it seems to work well. Since the sole will be out I can probably put a piece or two of glass behind it for good measure. When I gutted my Bayliner I made a couple "thru-hull" angle grinder cuts (whooops) so fixing this shouldn't be a big deal.

I can say with pretty good certainty that the Coho doesn't have any structural bulkheads aside from a small one ahead of the forward of the engines below the rear cabin bulkhead. I've stuck my head and a flashlight in the bilge and can't see any. Just those huge longitudinal boxed stringers. I can see how an early fiberglass CC hull could take WOT in a small craft advisory.

Without taking out the sole I'm not sure how its held up at the hull...with the condition of things I don't think there really was any. But, we shall see.

'71 33' Catalina Coho Sedan under restoration
'85 Bayliner Capri 19' cuddy 3.0L OMC, new deck and stringers
'87 Kawasaki JS650SX
'70 Amphicat 6x6 AATV (future Coho tender)

'74 Buick LeSabre Luxus convertible, '07 Subaru Forester 5MT

I spent a few hours out there this Saturday. Jeff, a friend at the marina with a 28' lapstrake Owens came out with me to check up on his boat and hang out.

We were able to remove the galley countertop and cabinets without damaging things too much. With it out of the way I can access the bad sole and the side decks supports.

For reference, the pix below are of plywood that's just forward of the dinette (in the nice Coho interior pic) that also serves as wall of the galley cabinets closest to the stern.



This is looking up showing how its attached to the wood underneath the side decks. This is not tabbed to the hull or attached to anywhere else and from what we can tell simply sits on the sole. Since the sole has softened this board has sagged, allowing the corresponding area of the side deck to sag as well as the galley cabinets.



Looking downwards. Doesn't show much but again it isn't even attached to the sole directly (though with all the "nailer" boards and all those silicon bronze screws, its pretty well attached to the cabinetry which itself is attached in a lot of other places in the boat).

It seems these boards do little to support the cabin superstructure and flybridge. We concluded that most of the support comes from the plywood planks (probably not the right term) inside...going back to the nice Coho interior pic, they're the boards behind the microwave on the starboard side, the curtain rods near the top, and if you look in the mirror above the galley, there's a lamp attached to the one on the port side.

I need to remove the cabinets on the starboard side opposite of the galley and will continue to proceed from there.

Behind the galley and underneath the side decks the backing boards were screwed from the outside inwards. Jeff suggested that when constructed that everything from the gunwales up was prefabricated and dropped into the hull...sound about right?

Were Commanders constructed in this fashion, even remotely?

'71 33' Catalina Coho Sedan under restoration
'85 Bayliner Capri 19' cuddy 3.0L OMC, new deck and stringers
'87 Kawasaki JS650SX
'70 Amphicat 6x6 AATV (future Coho tender)

'74 Buick LeSabre Luxus convertible, '07 Subaru Forester 5MT

I spent some time with the vessel today and got a little bit done. Worked at getting more of the cabinets out and picked up a new tarp to replace the mildew ridden, previous old one. a 20x40 wasn't enough.







When redoing interiors on later Commanders that came with veneer is it ok to use new veneer? Haha

Is there any way to make removing these easier? I can't decide whether a P1 or P2 bit fits them better. Chris Craft sure didn't skimp on attaching things together. The heads seem to quickly strip out on like half of them and drilling/prying/hammering is quite time consuming. The ones that have had plugs are worse

Not sure what they put in your models but CC still used Frearson/Reed & Prince in the Commanders. Phillips will chew them up. R&P has a much sharper bit/head and frankly works better than a Phillips.

I'm not familiar with that type of screw head and had to look it up. I'll try to find such a bit and see if things go any easier

You can get the bits at Jamestown. Years ago after I bought my CCC I called my mom, at the time in her early 80's, and said "mom do you still have those yellow handled screw drivers in dad's tool box?"
Her reply "you mean the Reed&Prince." All three sizes two for the #4-10 and a big dog for the 12-16 that are on the cleats ect. The nice thing about R&P is that even a large bit works in a small screw head because of the sharpness of the point.

Because of attacks by previous owners on the screws and machine screws of my 19SS I had to replace a number of them prior to chroming or bought new. Chrome oval heads machine screws are impossible to find so save those. For most, phillips are a better replacement unless you are doing a restoration.

Ordered a pair of Fasco #2 Frearson bits from my local WM at $3.99 each. Lowes, Home Depot, and Ace didn't have them. Hopefully those screws will come out easier with the right stuff. I've heard of heads other than flat and Phillips but wasn't aware of the Frearson/R-P.

Funny how the Phillips is designed to slip out

Paul, Phil, and All:
As I look back at all your posts, I am reminded that I am in the same boat, pardon the pun, with regards to many of the photos. Our commanders are not constructed the same way.

With regard to the screws, I know of no easy way other than to use the correct bit, and very carefully exert sufficient pressure on the drill to keep the bit in place. Also, use the SLOW setting on your drill driver. The fast drilling speed will rip the screws out in a second.

I often have to pry the board off the screw and then cut the screw off. Not a good solution, but a sufficient one. I also use a pair of vice grips and if I can get the screw head in them, then just twist them out.

If the outer board where the screw head is located will be scraficed, then I use a dremel cutoff disc to cut the head off, then twist the rest of the screw out with the vise grips.

Good luck,
Jerry

Hi guys,

I thought I would share the way Chris Wade handled a somewhat similar problem when he replaced his toe rail. The photos are self explanatory, might have some application to what you guys are doing.





Regards,

Paul

Saving at least some of the wood to make patterns from is the current goal lol

Paul, Chris, Phil and All:
Look closely at this photo that Paul posted. Do not let your eye be attracted to the toe rail activity, but instead look closely at the beer can next to the nail puller on the upper left of the picture. This particular brand is noted for getting one "greased" while not putting on extra pounds. From experience, if the fumes alone do not make the screws jump out of the wood, then after imbibing enough of the liquid, one can develop an attitude necessay for, and a clever idea for, doing whatever it takes! Gett'n er done!
Jerry

For the interior I plan on replacing the silicon bronze screws with stainless. I've saved the bronze screws that didn't receive any damage from stripping due to my use of a Phillips bit but there's not enough left.

I googled "silicon bronze vs. stainless" and found that there's quite a bit of science behind selecting screws. It sounds like stainless screws should not be used below the waterline on wooden boats due to corrosion from an "anaerobic" environment.

Being that this, along with most of the boats in question on this board are fiberglass, we don't have the issue of stainless screws below the waterline with wooden plugs over them. I've always thought stainless was good for attaching everything to a fiberglass boat below the waterline, unless I missed something that says otherwise. I mean, should I be using silicon bronze for my depth sounder?

If a screw will be in wood and covered with a plug or epoxy ABOVE the waterline, is it ok to use stainless? My best experience is with the iBoats board and no one ever mentioned using anything other than stainless to fasten decks to stringers. This is above the waterline (or at least not submerged) and those screws are countersunk and epoxied/glassed over. My cabin structure will have a lot of such screws.

Thanks guys.

Paul, Phil, and All:
Phil, stainless can oxidize if everything but air (we are talking nitrogen and oxygen here) is there. Silicon bronze is good when submerged in water, and will not oxidize in the absence of air. When I say oxidize with regard to stainless, I am talking years to have any effect. I have 40 year old stainless that has rust STAINS on the screw or bolt, but are otherwise like new. Stainless does not, in my experience, oxidize into nothingness as does black iron products. In salty conditions, stainless or bronze seem to work just fine. The difference is that the stainless is much stronger, as you know now from twisting many of the screws off!

Before you ask, (and you will), be careful about mixing metals, or using two different kinds touching each other. Salt water and environmental conditions will make the lessor galvanic metal corrode into a powder in no time. You must put a plastic barrier, or something, between them. The classic case is a stainless steel bolt and nut and an aluminum washer, or a black steel washer. The stainless steel will remain untouched, while the aluminum or steel will oxidize. Look for black iron lag bolts with stainless steel washers. In this case, the steel lag bolt, (possible holding down your engine) will oxidize.

In these days, most just go with stainless because of its strength and durability.
Jerry

Philip and all,

If you decide to use stainless screws make sure you use 316. It is not always the cheapest, but it is the best.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia;
Type 316the second most common grade (after 304); for food and surgical stainless steel uses; alloy addition of molybdenum prevents specific forms of corrosion. It is also known as marine grade stainless steel due to its increased resistance to chloride corrosion compared to type 304. 316 is often used for building nuclear reprocessing plants. 316L is an extra low carbon grade of 316, generally used in stainless steel watches and marine applications, as well exclusively in the fabrication of reactor pressure vessels for boiling water reactors, due to its high resistance to corrosion. Also referred to as "A4" in accordance with ISO 3506.[6] 316Ti includes titanium for heat resistance, therefore it is used in flexible chimney liners.

Glenn

Seems most of their hardware is "18-8" but there's also 316.

With 316 it says "Improved allow that resists corrosion and putting better than 18-8 stainless steel, 316 is truly "stainless." Works great below the waterline."

Sooooo...it sounds like 18-8 is fine for my depth sounder but 316 would be better if I boated in saltwater (which may happen in the next couple seasons, we shall see).

From what I gather from you guys here and elsewhere, the silicon bronze thing is for screws on a wooden boat, below the waterline, where the screws are wet due to the soaking of the wood but not oxygen (I'm guessing because the dissolved oxygen cannot get through the wood to the screw). In this application the stainless screw would be eaten away (eventually). I'm guessing saltwater would make this worse though a 316 screw would fair better than an 18-8 or 304 (not sure if those are interchangeable terms).

Though in my case, in using screws in wood but above the waterline in my cabin structure, stainless screws will be fine because they will be recessed and plugged but not exposed to water/moisture.

That's what I've concluded

'71 33' Catalina Coho Sedan under restoration
'85 Bayliner Capri 19' cuddy 3.0L OMC, new deck and stringers
'87 Kawasaki JS650SX
'70 Amphicat 6x6 AATV (future Coho tender)

'74 Buick LeSabre Luxus convertible, '07 Subaru Forester 5MT

My weekends the past while were tied up with family activities, getting my Bayliner ready for the season (I know, I know), and taking our 4 night vacation to Mackinac Island. The harbormaster seems to have noticed us staying with the 19' there the past 3 years and was like "you can't tell me you don't want to get a bigger boat"...I laughed and told him about the Coho project.

Anyway, being that my girlfriend and I spend most of our weekends at the marina, I'll be able to keep at it. Today I disconnected the wiring and control cables underneath the dash of the flybridge, carefully labeling everything that wasn't labeled already (did they come from the factory that way?). I also removed the aluminum trim covering the flybridge screws and removed all of them manually since my brother neglected to take my drill out of his car after using it. Hopefully I'll have it loose and can have it pulled off soon.

I'm still debating whether it's worth it to pay the extra storage cost and have it moved inside. I've been going over what the best strategy would be concerning replacing all the wood in question. We shall see.

Not that I'm giving it away, but all the screws, wiring, control cables, and some glass at the front attaching it to the upper deck have been removed, disconnected, or cut. Also pried it off the sealant between it and the deck. I've been talking about getting this thing off for months but it will seriously be lifted off soon. It's quite heavy just lifting a corner of it so I don't feel that getting a few able-bodied friends would be safe, plus I don't have a long cabin roof to set it on like your Commander owners do.

I would have had more done on it this week but the 100+ degree heat has been miserable. Size and brand aside, my Bayliner is still ready 24/7, and working on a rotten boat in awful heat doesn't win over a quick cruise upriver, dropping anchor, and jumping in the water. School has been a bit intensive as well but work continues.

I worked one year on a boat project during the hottest part of the summer, it was brutal and the only reason I did it was because of the haul-out schedule put me in that slot. It just keeps getting hotter until around 3:00 or 4:00, fans help and water is mandatory. You can only slug it out so long in heat like that. Obviously you know the danger and are taking precautions, hot weather and paint fumes don't mix well either.

As an update, are you intending to restore and re-install the flybridge?

regards,

Paul

What fun would it be without the 8x10 Command Bridge? lol

Theres a few spots that could use some filling and fairing, plus the dash where the controls are mounted seems to be a separate piece and it'# loose and sagging. The gelcoat should buff out from what I've read.

The deck of the flybridge isnt rotten but i can tell a couple beams under it are and the surface is cracking. The wood around the windows is bad so taking the bridge is off necessary to get to it all

I keep a cooler with plenty of water and hydrating drinks while at the marina though numerous applications of sunblock dont seem to keep me from getting toasted

.....but that has never stopped me in the past

I admire you for tackling the job, you'll have a lot of satisfaction when it is done, and you'll get a lot of fun from it too.

best,

Paul

well, in another thread there's a 27' getting its flybridge removed, so perhaps the question isn't dumb-dumb, but still, it's too cool to permanently remove from the Coho

got any pics
I am looking at one 4 sale in pretty poor shape to put the FB on my 37 roamer

I do not have any pix of it removed yet. I googled and found a Roamer with a flybridge stretching over the rear cockpit, which I suppose you could do. It's quite a bit longer than a typical Commander or Roamer Command Bridge.

I'll snap some good ones when I get back to the marina

CC certainly didn't skimp on those silicon bronze screws. I still can't believe how well the interior is held together.

No pix but I removed the "dashboard" today (wood between the windshields and the foward cabin), and a load of screws holding the head together. I've found it's worth it to use a knife and be sure that the screw heads are free of paint or the filler CC used over them if embedded in wood.

What do you do with old, stale gas? Tanks have a few inches in them. I was thinking of slowly mixing it in my car when I fill up with fresh gas. My other idea would be to give it to my "father in law" for his bonfires

I had a fair amount of stale gas in the 23, probably 20 gal or so, it was useful in incinerating a million ticks, fleas, and spiders around the farm during brush removel when it was wet enough to be safe to burn.

I wouldn't run it through anything, not even the tractor for fear it would gum up something, becuase it was more of a varnish than a quality fuel.

Regards,

Paul

Spent around 5 hours inside the beast today, sweating out most of the 3 bottles of water I chugged.

I was able to remove the port side "wardrobe" and gutted the head, countertop, cabinets, and shower pan (or whatever it should be called).

I found that the stringer underneath the head has detached from the hull. It seems the tabbing just failed. I truly didn't think that with all that heavy glass and those massive stringers that they could fail, but then again it's just the tabbing. When I get the rest of the sole up I'll be able to see how far back it goes. I don't think that fixing it will be a big deal and figure using a jack on the outside of the hull and tabbing it back with the gap closed will yield a good repair. Have any of you Commander guys come across a stringer failure like this?

I might go back and try to tackle getting the lower helm out tomorrow, and with that all of the wood under the gunwhales will be exposed. The 1/2'' plywood serving as the core for the side decks has varying degrees of rot, and a previous-someone put deck screws down from the outside, through the glass, through the rotten core, and into a new 1/2'' pressure treated strip. I've noticed in some places that they also used what seems to be construction adhesive or epoxy to hold it up there. It seems my best bet will be to remove all of the core and replace it, though I'm not certain as to how difficult it will be (I know I've talked about this plenty of times before, but as the time to actually remove it gets closer I keep wanting to bring the topic back up). The deck screws on the side decks are covered over...someone actually did a pretty good looking job of finishing over them and coating the side decks with a non-skid coating of sort (I believe DIY truck bed liner). What I am not looking forward to is having to remove the "cap" to get to the core, which in my case isn't that bad since my topside cabin structures need to be replaced anyway, but regardless this is a daunting job for me. I may be able to cut into the side decks but I suspect that the rub rail has screws going into the side deck core...I haven't looked yet.

Every time I remove a panel I go slow in fear that I'm going to find something that'll freak me out, like a long dead animal or a huge cluster of spiders, or something equally freaky...I'm definitely planning on painting the bilge and hull sides when everything is out, preferably in white instead of gray...if there's something in there i want to be able to see it easily lol.

Here's the stringer separation:



Underneath the side decks, in this case where the head cabinets usually are



And another, looking forward slightly. The mahogany block is where the blower for the head goes, but you guys probably new that. Do you guys have those steel plates? I'm very certain they're for side deck railing stantions. I've seen photos of Coho's with them but mine doesn't have them though I'm quite certain it did at some point

...I should have just bought a Commander...

You must be the most positive/patient person on earth.

I restored a 23 lancer. That sat in my garage all winter I had alot of help from my father in law. The boat need to be torn down and rebuilt from inside out. The project that you are undertaking is way more involved then I did. We worked on the boat in some fashion almost everyday and it still took 11 months. I read your last post then read your first post. So Im not going to discourage you. I thought when I purchased my Lancer for $1500 with a trailer that I stole it. Well my feeling now is a free boat is no bargain even a Chris Craft. I enjoyed almost the whole project and the feeling when It was launched after all the work was one of the best feelings. The first half of my project was tearing it down, alot of labor little $. Second half alot of labor alot of $. Good Luck but dont get into deep. Its not worth the stess or is it.

...and it needs to be fixed lol. While I saw my Bayliner as a massive project and never ending at the time, it's more like a weekend project compared to the Coho. While I've thought up plenty of awesome interior ideas and finishing touches, I'd like to have just the bad wood replaced and the drivetrain in good order by next season. It may be empty inside by then but with how extensive this project is I don't want to push myself too hard. Thank goodness for being able to find deals on marine plywood and having a best buddy work at a West Marine (with a rather generous employee discount he said I could abuse) but it won't be a world class, turnkey, long range cruiser for a while.

I think its helped having support groups too. There aren't any classic glass Chris Crafts at my marina but lots of the people here have done their own extensive repair work. I've talked with the owner of a 30' Trojan that had to completely gut the thing after sitting outside for around 15 years, and a 32' Carver owner that had to deal with rotten stringers. I'll make it through somehow, and will have a pretty sweet boat made to my own specifications.

You are complety right. Its yours every bolt, nut, and everything else will be the way you want it. I say the samething in reguards to the lancer. I could of bought a restored one. But Mine is Mine. I know everthing about the boat because I tore at it and build it up again. keep it up I enjoy reading your progess.

Got the lower helm out. I made sure everything was labeled though I'm certain hooking everything back up will be a nightmare anyway:



There's quite a bit of corrosion in the A/C boxes...I'm guessing that the system should be completely replace with modern stuff:



Starboard wardrobe out. The remaining plywood is glassed in and will be removed later:



I'm going to make a couple runs to store all the stuff in the boat. It was about empty when I started tearing things up. Looking on the port side:



Starboard:



Gotta love the castings



Forward cabin



Port wardrobe



While you may be enjoying your concourse-grade runabout, or cutting chop on the open Great Lakes or ocean, or sipping a cocktail on your flybridge, someone somewhere else is picking away the filler from the heads of bronze screws, hacking out plywood wet enough to grow mushrooms (true), and setting off bug bombs to get rid of the ants and spiders...

Good gawdahmitey Philip, that is a photo set to chill the most ardent restorers heart. you get double bonus points for just keeping your sanity. I'd be well down the street by now, with onlookers wondering what would cause a man to go running like that. Keep the faith and stay the course no matter what I say.
Cheers!
Craig L

Well you are definately in the tear-it-out mode, but that wiring may actually be tinned marine grade wire so take a good look at those boxes and the wiring, and it may be they (the boxes) just need to be cleaned up and or replaced. If you strip off a section of wire insulation and it is copper verdigris green, then you know you have issues, but if it is bright tin then that is some expensive wire that really can be kept in service. Easy for me to say from here, but just work a look.

The wiring on my 1966 38 is original and so are the boxes, but the boxes looked pretty bad. I pulled off the covers and prepped/primed and sprayed them with a coating of metallic rust preventative paint.



What I would not do is rewire the boat with residential grade wire, as it may not even meet US housing specs these days, let alone, marine specs.

On another note, your long term project is working for your time and place, many of us could not pull something like this off today, but you are apparently in a position near a marina, able to do the work, having fun, so just be sure you enjoy the fact that when you pull into the marina you are even able to be engaged in this kind of stuff. Many people would trade for that. Many people are stuck in a location where if they are caught with a little dirt under their fingernails they are reported to the club board of directors and put on a list, lol. Most clubs or marinas will not allow someone to be doing their own work like you are doing, so again, enjoy it while you can, there are less and less opportunities like this ever year thanks to insurance regulations and lawsuits, etc.

As Mike and some of the others have suggested, once you are done you will know the work was done right, and you will have shaved off many thousands of dollars over just going out and buying something expensive that would have soaked up interest and payments along the way. I built my house like this, basically out of pocket in phases, and it was paid off a long time ago. There is a lot to be said about sweat equity.

More power to ya, keep us posted, we'll help you any way we can.

Regards,

Paul

Craig and Paul,

The encouragement helps a lot. I've never been stuck in a project this big or extensive but I'm able to just take it in and do what it takes. Looking at my Bayliner as an empty tub when I gutted it it was intimidating to think that I had to put everything back, and this thing has two V8s, two stations, plumbing, shore power, closets, a kitchen (galley) sink. But it's going to be an awesome boat that I plan to keep for at least a long while. Originality isn't a big factor but I want to keep it true in spirit...does that make any sense?

I'll hold onto the wire and not can the Square D system. I'll take a look and see if it's tinned as well. I know it works but it still seems weird that those circuit breakers are used for 12V DC too, but hey, it worked.

Were 33' Coho's really made in Taiwan? The CC cabin lights are marked inside to be made in Taiwan, which seemed weird to me if they were made in the US (I figured a CC was almost entirely made from materials and parts from the US). On the inside hull sides I've seen marker writing in english though.

Paul, and everyone else: have there been any stringer separations here like the kind I've found?

Thanks again guys

Hi Philip,

I have not seen any internal delamination popping up here on The Forum from any of the box beam supports used on Commanders, longitudinal or transverse, perhaps there are some but it is not a rule by any means. These boats have all been handled, run hard, etc., and quite honestly if one is as old as the ones we have if there is ANY weakness someone along the way has found it one way or another. I would not stay up at night worrying about that stringer. You can drill some holes in it so you can get a good grip on it, as you know epoxy will slump into a hole and solitify like a rivet, and lay some glass over the stringer and bond everything back to the hull but degreasing is the issue. Therefore you should first degrease everything, use something like EASTWOOD PRE or Acetone (for God's sake wear a respirator and have GOOD ventilation as Acetone is a terrible fire hazard), and once the degreasing is fully done, then use a grinder and rough up the area you want to grip, use an epoxy, and it should be fine.

I actually had what was a structural failure of one of the box beam supports in my 1966 Sea Skiff, and I also had a broken pair of engine stringers, so I can only wonder what it was that caused that damage. I am sure it was a pretty EXPENSIVE sound when it happened, whatever happened.

Regards,

Paul

Thanks Paul. I didn't think that repairs would be difficult, and what you described is exactly what I had in mind.

From iBoats, before I started on my Bayliner, I learned that a P99 respirator and good ventilation are required for doing glass work. I added a tyvek suit for when glass grinding got really bad. When I get the interior as empty as possible I plan on hosing the hull with degreaser and hosing everything down. Getting water may be difficult though I figure I could use a portable 12V pump and get water from the nearby pond. Stripping the nasty looking paint on the glass is going to be a pain, though painting over it has not been ruled out yet.

With the sole out I'll see how far back the delamination is.

Phil,

I am in the middle of my 36' TF and loving every minute, call us crazy, most normal people don't understand us.

This was my bilge when I got it.


This is half way through.


This is now.



The further along we get, the better it get.

Labor of Love

Glenn

.......you are this month's Poster Boy for the Clean Bilge Club !

Great inspiration!

thanks,

Paul

That's a sharp looking bilge you've got there. Again I like the idea of white, so if it's down there, I'll see it.

Great Job