Kris may be one of the first to convert the 327Q to a standard intake manifold !!July 25 2013 at 8:52 AM
|Paul (no login)|
As we all basically know, the Q series of Chris-Craft marine engines went through an evolutionary phase of development and some things that were iron got changed, including the intake manifold and the routing of cooling water, etc. In reality the Q is a formidable unit, well designed, producing good power and very reliable. The Achillies heel of this system is the intake manifold, which has been known to rust out over time, and these are in short supply at high cost. The manifold is Q-specific, in otherwords, it is so specific to the way the engine is turned around and hooks to drive belts, cooling outlets, etc., that Q owners dont have the chance to swap to any number of other intake manifolds that would otherwise fit the small block Chevy. The Q intake is the only one that works for a Q motor. It has all the proper cooling ports and has a built in carb wedge that just makes it work so well.....if you can find one. Therefore anyone with a Q engine has the potential of being without much of a choice for a replacement, other than to look on the recycled motor circuit for one that may still be good.
The motor will run with an aftermarket intake, of course, and actually with some great improvement depending on the selection. The Edelbrock Performer RPM is a popular choice for small block V8 motors looking for an upgrade. The problem is dealing with all of the other issues like water flow, drive belts for water pumps and alternators, etc. Kris has done it.............here is his report!!
"327Q runs sooooo nice. One pump gas, starts right up and purrs at 700 RPM's,
advancing nicely thru 3800 so far. Pretty sure she will see 4200 at some
Custom intake,exhausts,Risers, and water system performs flawlessly...No hot
spots yet after 30 minute run time. Will run it thru the paces shortly.
I am now living proof that the 327Q does not require the original
Intake...It can be done.
In order to put the Q conversion concept into the proper perspective I am adding the photos below of my own projects, some of which I believe are more complex than putting an aftermarket intake on a Q motor and hooking up a thermostat. This is intended to disperse the myth and the fears that "only a Q intake can be used on a Q motor"
These projects use custom plumbing, which I see really no different to accomplish on a Q motor. That being said, I would fully expect to have to give a little blood perhaps in the area of knuckles to complete this task.
This was a relatively easy conversion of the 427 Standard Cooling System to accommodate the new DUI distributor. This was easy and very lucky because all I had to do was rotate the standard Chris-Craft T-fitting and replumb it.
This is a MUCH more complex operation, using a new 350 4-bolt main marine long block and hooking everything back up to flow like a 327F but with vertical discharge manifold (much easier said than done)
This is another rather complex conversion on my 427 project, and you can see I removed the entire recirculation pump system on the motor. This was done for simplification, physical fit reasons, to remove weight, and to avoid hanging that monster out on the end of an aluminum intake manifold. The result is a return to “old school” 427 setup similar to what was raced in the drag boat and flatbottom boat series in the early and mid 1960s, where the sea water pump did all the work.
These photos are presented to put the Q conversion project into perspective. It’s not an easy "bolt-on and go boating situation", but it certainly “can” be done and still use all of the Q recirculation and cooling features.
|This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Oct 16, 2016 7:20 AM|
|July 25 2013, 10:53 AM |
We are so gonna need more info than that!
|July 25 2013, 11:54 AM |
Been done here as well
|July 25 2013, 2:58 PM |
My old 327Q engine ran a single plane Edelbrock intake (I didn't like it) and new Q engine is running a Performer RPM. Just dynoed the new 350Q replacement last week at 403 HP and 396 ft. lbs. of torque. Very pleased with the results and can't wait to get it back in the boat. I had planned to use an earlier aluminum 327 flywheel forward intake but they as well as the iron Q intakes are so restrictive and inefficient compared to modern intakes that its worth going through the process of retrofitting a newer intake unless keeping bone stock for originality reasons.
|This message has been edited by Overkillphil on Jul 25, 2013 2:59 PM|
This thread has my undivided attention
|July 25 2013, 4:07 PM |
Please send more data (specifics).
'06 CC Launch 22
Re: This thread has my undivided attention
|July 26 2013, 8:45 AM |
I'm planning to start a separate thread for my 70 Corsair shortly and will post pictures and details of everything. I am also working out a closed cooling system for my new engine because I went with Edelbrock E-Tec aluminum heads and Glenwood Aluminum manifolds so salt water cooling is not an option for me.
Meanwhile, I too am awaiting each new piece of news from Kris on his awesome project!
Custom closed cooling system (Glenwood issues)
|July 26 2013, 3:49 PM |
Okay now you're talking my language.
Years ago I actually purchased two complete Glenwood systems for my 38 Express. Upon delivery of these beautiful castings it was evident that I had purchased something that would take more of a custom application than I was prepared for at the time. The aft end of the riser was in physical contact with a motor mount, it was not necessarily as high of a lift as the stock iron 427 risers, and the flow ports were VASTLY smaller and only one-way. Tt would have taken a complete re-engineering of the system to make those work on the cruiser.
Now 10 or more years later I finally found a use for one set of the logs, and I'm using them on a 427-powered Lancer project.
I can give you some pointers about the Glenwood system, and first off the bat is the fact that it is a one way system, not a "down and back" system like the iron Chris Craft systems. Water flow is also VERY REDUCED from the CC system which relies on velocity to keep from seeing spikes in temp.
Also, with the Glenwood, be sure you are feeding from the lowest point of the exhaust log to assure you are not creating an air bubble (that would be on the discharge end of the exhaust and not the front side). An air bubble in an aluminum exhaust can lead to melt-down.
I have taken specific measures to open up the system for higher flow for this very reason. Also, the use of the standard PRV (pressure regulator valve) is still recommended, because that valve servwes a purpose with the closed and standard systems, similar but not identical, one big issue being the priority feed to areas where air bubbles are not wanted. Your heat exchanger side will need a pressure bleed off capability to dump overpressure.
Ideally you will be modeling your aluminum system to a stock iron closed system, using some of the old components like the PRV. If not, then you will need to find some on ebay and still follow the concept. The Glenwood risers (if you are, in fact, even using risers and not down-pipe discharge ends) have multiple points of opportunity for that final pass through the system before it is dumped out the tailpipes.
Study the standard system diagrams carefully. I seriously do not think you are going to be able to run "all" the water through the exhaust logs so there may need to be some way of splitting up the flow. I'm interested in seeing what you come up with.
Now not to hijack the thread, back to your Q conversion. The routing of plumbing lines is a challenge when using all the stock iron components, but it is much bigger if you are going with the Glenwood exhaust. Never-the-less, it is doable. The Q intake is cast so a Chris-Craft Q type thermostat housing bolts to it. You will need an older style F-type thermostat housing to bolt to your aluminum intake.
Sounds like a fun project and a very cool motor you are working on.
Looking forward to seeing the photos and all.
Re: Custom closed cooling system (Glenwood issues)
|July 28 2013, 7:32 PM |
Excellent post Paul, all advice is quite valuable at this juncture.
Phil..........if you decide to drill and tap yours, call me. (Glenwood aluminum exhaust )
|July 29 2013, 11:34 AM |
I have the drill bit and the tap..........you can use em.
A tip from our machinest of the group, Glenn Feilhauer, is to use WD40 as a tapping lubricant.
WD40 may not have the best reputation for some functions, but it works well in this application.
Using care it can be done. It would have been better if I had found a way to build a plywood vise that would clamp the pieces securely so they could be placed under a drill tower and do it right, but I did mine by hand. It worked for me, but not without risk of cracking or otherwise boogering up a nice aluminum piece. Here are a couple more photos.
The Glenwood exhaust log is engine specific, but the parts that bolt to the log is a system of "one size fits all". In otherwords, you have two choices at the eventual final discharge point from aluminum to rubber hose. For smaller motors it is fine to use the appendage they give us, but for the 427 (and your hi-po motor?) I found it necessary to open it up.
Photos should be self-explanatory.....
Cutting the ends off is easy, reaming out the inner lip is the tough part, and be prepared to work on it for a while.
Now for the drill and tapping part.
I was so concerned about changing the CC system which is reliant on FLOW that I was determined to be sure my logs and
risers would not be the weak link in the system, so I put in larger size fittings.
These are still very small compared to the size of the stock CC system, so those PRV pods will likely get a workout at
higher rpm. Since there is only one water pass through the system, I am hopeful it will take the flame of a 427 howling
The large drill bit will follow the existing hole, but you can see the "drill bit chatter" here is due to the fact that it was hand
held and not done properly with a drill tower and a secure piece. If I were going to do this again, I would get some 2x12 or other
suitable wood pieces and use long bolts to clamp the piece at the angle I wanted, and then find a way to secure it under a drill tower.
That would give a nice smooth bit entry instead of the crude way I did it holding the piece between my knees on a bed of pillows and heavy
canvas cover to keep from scratching up the aluminum. Thankfully I had speed control on the drill bit and used extreme care, and it worked.
Going a little deeper here, exploratory drilling.
Finally opened up, naturally I was being very very careful
When it came time to tap, I lubed it up good and was VERY careful to work it back and forth without trying to cut it all
with one or two passes.
Interesting thing about the Glenwood risers, there are plenty of places to add another tap!
Lastly, when you select fittings you will have a choice of brass, stainless, or aluminum. I chose aluminum due to my running
in fresh water and a compatible expansion coefficient. In searching for fittings, and having some come in, returning them,
getting more in, returning those too, I eventually FOUND a brand (EARLS) that had a consistant inner flow. As you can see from
the photo, there are look-alike brands out there with the same finish on them, but they are not the same internally. I thought
"why would I drill and tap these pieces and NOT use the larger flow piece"? They are not inexpensive.
Photos below show the same 3/4" NPT threaded area, the fittings were both called 3/4" NPT but they obviously have a different outlet
size and differnt internal structure. I have a record of what I purchased in the event you or anyone else will ever need that. Since
you are going to be generating a lot more heat with your motor, you may (also) want to think about some of this. It's a great way to
get to know your riser up close and personal, and spend money on the boat too.
As you get into your small block Q conversion project, we'll start up a dedicated thread to this, as I know there are a lot of people in
North America and elsewhere who are going to be looking at this information very closely. They are going to need new intakes
eventually, and they may also be interested in the performance upgrade they can get by installing a Performer RPM
Thank you Paul!
|July 30 2013, 9:17 AM |
Very good info and photos! And ditto regarding Earls vs. "Brand X" stuff. I'm working on cleaning up/painting the bilge at the moment in order to pick up the engine/trans assembly (hopefully) in the next week or two. Once I have it back home I can start on the cooling system if everything goes as planned.
(Premier Login FEfinaticP)
The high-performance 427 will weigh considerably less than the small block motor
|October 1 2014, 4:49 PM |
From Wikipedia "The FE block was cast using a thinwall casting technique. Instead of relying on large quantities
of metal being poured into molds in unnecessary thicknesses, Ford engineers determined the proper amount of metal actually
needed and re-engineered the casting process to allow for consistent dimensional results pour after pour. This resulted in
less metal being used, lower cost of materials for Ford and lighter engines. A Ford FE from the factory weighed 650 lb
(295 kg) with all iron components. With an aluminum intake and aluminum water pump this weight could be reduced to under
600 lb (272 kg)."
Granted, the weights noted above are with transmissions and iron exhaust manifolds. Since I am using aluminum exhaust and
intakes, and the transmission I have weighs about 168 pounds, I'm still way under the weight of the stock 23 Lancer engine.
So with less weight and around 150 more horsepower, it will be fun finding a prop that will keep the rpm down to around 4000
Re: Kris may be one of the first to convert the 327Q to a standard intake manifold !!
|July 28 2013, 7:20 PM |
I am waiting for more information on this with baited breath! If I can replace my 350Q intake without digging up an old cast iron intake that would be great
Performer RPM on 350Q
|September 8 2013, 9:51 AM |
I was wondering if there was an update on this post? Maybe some ideas on putting the Performer intake on my 350Q. I can not find anyone willing to part with a 350Q intake so I am kind of stuck. Seems to me my only issue is getting the water flow redirected from the front to the back? No issue using the new location for the Performers t-stat location on the back side of the engine?
|October 1 2014, 5:47 PM |
Any updates on this? Would be some great info for the intakes on my newly purchased 307Qs went or if I wanted to upgrade the engine.
Okay guys..........it's time to follow through on the Q intake issues. Lets do it !!!
|October 2 2014, 10:36 AM |
This topic has been around for quite some time and we have not gotten an in-depth report on just how all of this works.
We do have two members here on THE FORUM who have done this so far and what we need is an in-depth "how to" pictorial we can share with Chris-Craft Antique Boat Club, ACBS members, and people throughout Europe with these engines too such as members of the Chris-Craft Catalina Club https://www.facebook.com/groups/chriscraftcatalinaclub/
There are hundreds (maybe thousands?) of boats out there in UK, Sweden, Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Switzerland, including North America too, that can benefit from this swap.
Therefore I think we need to make this an issue so we can publish it big-time, in deference to the entire antique and classic boating community because there are very many boats out there with Q intake manifolds, and the price of replacements is ridiculous, and the alternative aftermarket replacements actually provide better performance if you have the clearance in your engine compartment. Most cruisers with these engines have PLENTY of clearance.
Here is one such example of a FLYWHEEL FORWARD Q motor........our family 31 Commander with 327Q power (FLYWHEEL FORWARD INSTALLATION). These engines are turned around backwards and the front of the engine meets up with the transmission.
Now for comparison, here is the 327F series with FLYWHEEL AFT INSTALLATION (note the distributor and thermostat are on opposite sides of the motor).
Some of these are my photos, some are taken from the internet, in order to give us a good picture of what we have to contend with. Note.............the typical GM motor installation always has the distributor on the wrong end of the motor, way back near the firewall where you have to lean in to work on it. Therefore, all flywheel aft motors like the 327F and 350F and the K series, has the distributor on the flywheel end of the motor just like the automobile, with the water port on the other end. Note the Q intake (photos above) is FLYWHEEL FORWARD and has the distributor on the flywheel side, but also has the WATER PORT (thermostat and connection to the water pump) on the SAME end of the motor as the distributor. THIS is what makes the Q intake so special (and such an albatross for some).
FLYWHEEL AFT F series shown below...........what we want to make the Q look like, or similar to............
THE BIG PROBLEM:............ In order to solve the problem we have to identify the problem, and we have done that.
So now suppose we installed an aluminum Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold on a Q motor ? That would supposedly provide some significant power upgrade right by itself.
Here is one such image of the target intake we are looking for
So on the Q motor the distributor will go into the normal hole in the intake, but the water flow is going to have to be run from the one end of the intake back to the water pump location. The thermostat and all may bolt directly to the Edelbrock intake, but it still needs to be routed back to the water pump.
Gentlemen: this does NOT seem to be an insurmountable task. I think we can find some radiator hose shapes that are pre-formed to do a lot (or maybe all) of this task, maybe with some trimming.
Because the Q intake has a built in wedge, I would certainly consider adding a wedge (my choice for engines in the 4000 rpm and below range is ALWAYS a 4-hole spacer/wedge in phenolic).
Someone needs to step up and DO THIS......and report back with all the details and photos.
By doing so you are going to neutralize the $1200 rip-off market for old Q intakes, and provide a better running motor to many hundreds of boaters who are faced with this very limiting issue on an otherwise very fine engine. I will add, the Q motors run just fine.......very fine indeed, but they can benefit from a much better intake design. They are plagued with a custom unique intake design that was limted production and has a history of rusting out or being damaged by improper winterization.
Hopefully by working as a team here we can find a way to avoid the need for a Q intake on a Q motor.
Added note: due to experience with a recent conversion of a 327F to a higher performance package using a 350 4-bolt main long block and a DART air gap intake manifold, I can attest that you will need that seemingly simple but quite complex little iron casting (part #3) to bridge the gap between intake and standard F thermostat housing of you are using readily available F components.
From the 327F Parts Manual:
It is not known st this time if Q gasket #21 is the same bolt hole pattern as F gasket #2, and if this is true then it opens up a lot of options.
|This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Oct 16, 2016 6:24 AM|
|October 2 2014, 12:42 PM |
I'm just learning about the differences between the Q block and a standard block.
I thought there were more issues than just the intake? From what I understood, the cooling passages machined/built into the blocks were all different also? So does that mean new aftermarket heads wouldn't work either?
|October 2 2014, 1:02 PM |
...first of all I certainly don't profess to know-it-all, and secondly I subscribe to the concept that "there are no dumb questions" and if you don't know the answer to a question then by all means step up and ask!
To my knowledge the intake is the only issue, and the heads and blocks should be the same. I think we can proceed with this as a given unless someone corrects me on this. One thing about this place, if anyone finds ANY thread or tidbit of info that is bad, all they have to do is let me know and I will fix it so we don't pass on bad info.
The Ford 427 head gaskets have a water passage only on one end of the gasket. The heads and block, however, have passages at both ends, and it is imperative that the gasket be placed properly on the motor in order for it to cool properly. Since our Q-engine project is swapping things around, we will pay close attention to this issue as well, not knowing just now if this is an issue on the small block GM motor or not.
327Q Reference Photos
|October 2 2014, 1:21 PM |
Not sure If I'm looking at the photo's correctly....
|October 2 2014, 6:39 PM |
But on the Q manifold. The two cooling passages on the end are next to the distributor. On the performer manifold the cooling passages are on the opposite end. I know we were talking about the thermostat being on the wrong side, but isn't this another major hurdle. I'm not to in the know on GM blocks. But do those cooling passages go into the heads? And if so, does that mean heads would have to be replaced at the same time (assuming the coolant ports match up on the Q blocks).
I can take a closer look when my boat gets delivered Sunday.
|October 2 2014, 7:12 PM |
Mine is actually a 327QA. The QA is an aft-facing flywheel engine (V-drive). Maybe that's why the holes are on the opposite end?