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New engine update

August 12 2017 at 9:38 PM
Craig Wilson  (Login 6823)

As you know I've been working on the 23 Commander all summer and have finally made notable progress. Engine beds have been replaced and all glass repair in the bilge is done including the new shaft tube. Entire bilge bay is painted bright white.
New engine is complete and fired for the first time tonight. She fired right up with no issues, she ran just long enough to check timing and oil pressure. Tomorrow we hook up cooling and start break-in procedure. The new Edelbrock 1409 is awesome just like all the others that I have purchased, no tuning needed and awesome throttle response!I wish I could post pictures!
The sound of a brand new engine starting for the first time is better than sex!

Craig Wilson

 
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AuthorReply
Paul
(no login)

Congratulations !

August 13 2017, 4:00 AM 

Good news ! I will say, If you can do all THAT, you can also post photos ! lol

Regards,
Paul

 
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Craig Wilson
(Login 6823)

Engine timing anomily

September 6 2017, 7:56 PM 

Hi all,
I have about 4 hours on the new engine. She runs fantastic, I can't wait to get it in the boat and get out on the water.
I have encountered an interesting situation. While the engine starts and runs fantastic I have an interesting situation. The engine will not run unless the timing is set to aprox. 25-30 degrees BTDC.
I have tried all the things I know including changing distributor timing, I have checked cam timing and that checks out. I have swapped distributors, timing lights etc., etc., etc.
I don't understand how cam timing can be spot on and yet the engine will not run inside normal engine timing parameters.
I have checked with all the pros I know and tomorrow I will try to contact the engine supplier to pose these questions.
I've exhausted all the ideas I know from past experience, I've never seen this particular situation. I'm hoping someone here has seen this problem and knows hot to address it.


Craig Wilson

 
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Paul
(Premier Login FEfinaticP)
Owner

Timing question

September 6 2017, 9:18 PM 

Are you timing off the new front flywheel pulley or the Chris-Craft dimple on the flywheel ??

That dimple on the flywheel is probably around 10-degrees BTDC when the motor is spinning around 500-rpm or so.

What kind of distributor are you using, mechanical, vacuum, electronic, HEI style, etc.?

What series is the motor.............is it an updated "Vortec vintage" or earlier ??

You may have answered all of this in previous postings but it's always good to clarify the basis for the discussion at the first posting in a thread so everyone knows what we're trying to troubleshoot happy.gif

Regards,
Paul
"\"\""

 
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CraigWilson
(Login 6823)

Re: Timing question

September 7 2017, 7:07 AM 

Hi Paul, I knew you would be there for me.
I have been timing off the mark on the harmonic balancer but I have seen the dimple on the flywheel, it just won't run there.
I started with an aftermarket HEI distributor that has a mechanical tach drive. Just to see if that's where the problem was I replaced that distributor with a brand new ACCEL HEI distributor that I had on the shelf. Both are mechanical non-vacuum style.
Motor is pre-vortec style.

I have checked cam timing and TDC is spot-on the zero mark on the balancer.
I have pulled and reset the distributor multiple times checking the firing order each time.
I even went so far as to secure the flyweights under the cap to make sure I didn't have weak springs giving premature advance.
I contemplated the possibility that maybe the engine is not an opposite rotation engine but if that were the case it would only run 180 degrees off and that's just not the case. It only will run at a rock solid 30 degrees before.
I am hoping to find time to call the engine supplier today, maybe they have an answer.
Either way I'm stumped, I've never seen this before.

Craig Wilson

 
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Paul
(no login)

Let us know what the manufacturer says !!

September 7 2017, 9:44 AM 


A tip I saw....

"See what the timing is when you rev the engine up enough that the timing won't advance any more (probably around 2000- 3000 rpm or so). Should be set to somewhere around 34 degrees on a 350 with older design heads, maybe a bit less for the modern heads."

Should be around 8-10 degrees at idle

Regards,
Paul

 
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Craig Wilson
(Login 6823)

Not impressed

September 8 2017, 7:13 AM 

Well the timing at 2000-3000 rpm is so far off the scale it's only a guesstimate but it's probably 40-50 degrees.
Idle is 30. Engine supplier did not impress me with their lack of help. They are saying that the distributor is causing the problem, I certainly don't know everything but common sense tells me that this cannot be the case. That line of thinking does not explain why the engine runs at all at this extreme setting.
I keep thinking the cam is off a tooth even though the relationship between TDC and zero mark on the balancer seem correct.
I'm in uncharted waters here as I have never worked with an opposite rotation engine. I'm pretty sure of myself with automotive rotation and I'm trying to apply that knowledge to my current dilemma but I'm not coming up with the logical answers I thought I would.
I don't see where trying another distributor will be worth while since I have gotten the exact same results from two different brand new ones.
Any other thoughts before I pull the timing cover?

Craig Wilson

 
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Paul
(no login)

Opposite rotation

September 8 2017, 10:49 AM 

On the older style GM small block motors like the 327F, for instance, the distributors and distributor gear is the same on the standard rotation and the opposite rotation motor, so just about any GM distributor can be used for testing, and of course the marine units should be used for on the water running. The reverse and standard motor distributors spin the same direction. In 1986 that changed.

Always be sure you don't have a plug wire on the wrong plug.

If the valves are responding as they should to TDC, ans as you observe them while rotating the motor, then the cam should be on the right tooth.

Regards,
Paul


    
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Sep 8, 2017 1:09 PM


 
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Craig Wilson
(Login 6823)

Re: Opposite rotation

September 8 2017, 6:09 PM 

So in your opinion what should I do next? I have to find and fix the problem but it stands now I'm stuck. I don't know what to do or how to do it.

Craig

 
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Paul
(no login)

I have solicited help from some other Forum Members

September 8 2017, 6:37 PM 

I guess one thing I would do is to watch the distributor advance by watching the movement on the timing light, and then revving the motor to the point where the advance is "all in". That is normally, as you stated, in the 25 to 30 degree mark. Then I would back up about 30-degrees to the point where it should be TDC, and then move to a point where you are around 10-degrees before that mark. That, in the absence of good markings to time to on the graduated scale or dimple, should put you right about the same point you would normally be if you did get the proper reading on the dimple, while at idle.

If that is the same general location as the dimple, then you know you at least have a baseline to work with. From there, if that is not working, I think I would run some in-the-water tests and tune by ear. I'm not sure if the motor is actually running and the cam is activating the valves as it should, that you really have anything to gain by pulling the front timing cover, but I can assure you it would be A WHOLE LOT EASIER TO DO WITH THE MOTOR OUT OF THE BOAT. I made the mistake of installing before I checked for oil leaks and had to wrestle with a nasty little issue for weeks thereafter.

I posted your dilemma on another source of information and we'll see if anyone can give us some pointers. Stay tuned.

best,
Paul

 
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James G
(Premier Login FEfinaticP)
Owner

180-degrees out ?

September 8 2017, 8:51 PM 

I had similar issue with my build , was 180 deg out ... it ran but backfired like hell, I'm now having issues frying coils tho
"\"\""

 
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Larry C
(Premier Login FEfinaticP)
Owner

May need to re-mark the damper

September 8 2017, 8:52 PM 

Captain you have to pull # 1 spark plug and bring the piston to top dead center on the flywheel and check the mark on the damper ..if its off you will have to re-mark your mark could be off .that pulley is mounted in rubber and thay do slip ..and the pointer could be wrong for that engine ...good luck ......Zig Zag
"\"\""

 
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Andy R
(Premier Login FEfinaticP)
Owner

Damper slippage ?

September 8 2017, 9:01 PM 

Larry could be right. The dampeners will slip and make you a crazy person trying to set timing if it has slipped. My boat(327Q) is around 35-36 degrees BTDC at full advance.
"\"\""

 
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Rick N
(no login)

Plug wires ?

September 8 2017, 9:19 PM 

Swap number 1 plug wire with number 8 and let me know what happens.


Edit comment:
(This would click camshaft, now thought to be unnecessary)


    
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Sep 8, 2017 9:44 PM


 
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Paul
(Premier Login FEfinaticP)
Owner

Please confirm boat model and installation

September 8 2017, 9:36 PM 

If this is an inboard boat with flywheel aft it is considered opposite rotation or RH so the prop spins RH

If this is an outdrive boat and the motor is turned around backwards, CC will call it one thing due to their orientation in the boat, but in the shop a mechanic may call it something else

We need to confirm what model of boat

Paul
"\"\""

 
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Paul
(Premier Login FEfinaticP)
Owner

Is it a F, K, or Q motor ??????

September 8 2017, 9:42 PM 

Is it a F, K, or Q motor ??????

And is it inboard or outdrive, flywheel forward or reverse, and do you have a photo?

Paul
"\"\""

 
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Dean P
(no login)

Timing gear marks ??

September 8 2017, 10:04 PM 

Another thing comes to mind. The timing gears have marks on them that must align at top dead center. If the gears are one or two teeth off it could cause what you're describing

 
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Larry C
(no login)

TDC

September 8 2017, 10:21 PM 

With out taking the timing cover off to check for the marks being correct remove the # 1 spark plug and the valve cover on that side . Bring the # 1 piston to the tdc. And check to see if both lifters have no tension pushing on the rockers . Should be free If one has tension your gear marks are not aligned .

Or you could have a standard rotation cam shaft

....Zig Zag


 
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Craig Wilson
(Login 6823)

Great Information

September 9 2017, 8:34 AM 

Thank you so much for all the responses. I'm going to try to answer each one in this message.
The boat is a 1968 23' Commander hull #5. The engine I removed from the boat was an automotive 350 transplant but had a lot of the original "F" parts on it so I'm under the assumption the original engine was a 327F, I have not found any reason to believe otherwise.
The configuration is inboard, engine facing rearward running through a Paragon P-31 transmission and V-Drive so an opposite rotating engine (clockwise rotation facing the flywheel) passing through the V-Drive uses a right hand propeller.
Paul, the dimple on the flywheel agrees with the 0 mark on the harmonic balancer and yes you are correct about checking everything out before installing the engine in the boat. I am running the engine in my garage and that has allowed me to fix several little nagging problems easily.
Jim, I have experienced having timing off 180 and I know what you're saying about backfiring and such. That's not the case here. Strange about coils going bad...have you confirmed a good ground?
Larry and Randy, I suspected the damper myself. The timing tab that came on the engine is not correct, it is for a standard rotation but zero location should be the same either way. The damper slipping could be very real, I just don't know yet how to prove it.
Rick, I will try swapping the 1 and 8 wires and report back.
Dean, at this point I am strongly thinking in agreement with you although I have already done a preliminary check of cam timing and it seems correct. Does anyone know if the cam gear were off one tooth how many degrees of rotation that would equate to?
Larry, excellent suggestion. I had not thought of the pushrod idea. You are absolutely correct about there being no tension if it were truly at TDC with correct cam timing. How would I ever be able to confirm whether the cam is correct?


    
This message has been edited by 6823 on Sep 9, 2017 8:37 AM


 
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Paul
(no login)

Question !!

September 9 2017, 10:06 AM 

Craig....................What did you order from the motor shop ???

Did you order a reverse rotation motor ?????

I don't think the 23 Commander with V-drive takes a motor that spins opposite rotation, but by virtue of it being turned around backwards Chris Craft (and nobody else) called it a reverse rotation motor. We need to dig into that to see just what it is you got, and then we can take it from there.

When the motor is running, which way is the flywheel spinning when you are looking at it from behind? If it is spinning RH it's an opposite rotation motor. The identical situation from looking at the front for verification, if it is spinning LH when looking at the front timing damper, you have a RH (opposite rotation) motor.

Paul


    
This message has been edited by FEfinaticP on Sep 9, 2017 10:08 AM


 
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