leo charron (no login) from IP address 65.92.176.241
I appreciate and sympathise with your reticence to produce a product for a minority which will end up being too expensive to buy. It's a vicious circle that bites back! Would producing link and length tracks similar to Tamiya's cut the costs? Here's an idea that won't cost your first born, and won't put you out of business. May even be a big seller. A lot of us are Sherman builders - even multiple Sherman builders. Tamiya never included tow cable or cable ends with their kits. How about a set of resin cable ends, and maybe a length of something for the cable? Anyone with a Sherman will just have to have a set of these.
Hi Leo, yes, I absolutely agree! The tracks for the Crab are being done exactly that way, and of course I'll do them as a seperate set. The tow cables I prototyped a year or so ago, and couldn't get the moulds to fill reliably, so sort of shelved the project, but I can revisit it; maybe CNC machine a mould in delrin or similar, and inject the resin with a syringe rather than using vacuum. Anyone know the actual length of a real M4 tow cable, by the way? I'll post a pic or two when the battery on my camera is recharged!
Don't get me wrong, I'm as keen to see new stuff on the market as anybody, my previous comments were just to inject a bit of commercial realism into the discussion. I have been in the model accessory business one way or another since the mid-1980's, and I've seen an awful lot of enthusiastic dreams dashed on the rocks of commercial reality, my own hand-made ship "PP Models" being one, so if I have what appears to be a rather jaundiced view, I apologise, it isn't what I intended! But it is easy to let ones love of the subject and the hobby dull the senses when it comes to time and money, and I for one am not going down that road again. I will do what I can, when I can, and when I can afford it, not a moment sooner. My indulgence is to do what I want to do, rather than what might be commercial sure fire winners; otherwise I'd just be doing Whermacht subjects; and I'm never going to do that either!!
So, Crab, with the tracks and DV hull being available seperately are my current projects, with the tulip rockets and decals for NW Europe Brit tanks following on behind.
But thanks for your comments, all of you, fascinating discussion, just what this forum is best at doing!
Hi Tim! Am I to assume correctly that you will be doing the correct Commonwealth tracks (in link & length) for the Crab AND be selling them as a separate commodity?! That would be exactly what everyone who has been building these Shermans wants for Christmas!! Also, might I add that if, and only if, you are selling these as a separate item, you include a bonus straight section all the M4A4's et. al. that need the additional lengths! Pretty please, pretty please!
Ken, not only will you need the tracks for the tank suspensions, but so many British Shermans used vast quantities of spare track as extra armor, you'd need at least two sets of track for many of the British tanks you might want to model. I may have to sell one of the children.....
Amen to those British pattern tracks. Since I have restricted myself to British Shermans (in the hope of living long enough to complete them) I should need several sets. Although if the pound continues to skyrocket against the dollar I may have to give up my south of the border brews for a bit. When I left England as a mere lad the pound was worth five dollars... my father made 11 quid a week as a master moulder at the Sterling works in Coventry, and there was still rubble in the streets from the recent unpleasant business with Adolf.
OK, OK, you lot! Listen up!! I've CADded (is that a word? It is now...) up some more M4 track tread designs, hopefully turn them from digital to real models tomorrow, so I'll post some photos when the masters are done, but here is a render of the data as it stands. I've picked 4 of the miriad of track variants, if these work, AND SELL, I'll do some more.
Bear in mind the limits of the master making process, and the moulding/casting, I think these should look OK when done.
Watch this space...
I'll assemble these onto skimmed kit bits, and probably cast them in link-length of 12, 5, 4 and single links, with some of the singles with angled teeth so they go round the sprockets and idlers.
Please don't forget the venerable T51 monobloc plain rubber block tracks from the North African campaign, for all the early versions even of the Tamiya M4/M4A1. It's even simple to do.... I can assure you that should you actually engage in this insanity, I shall engage in mine: shoving large amounts of cash into your pockets and naming my first child after you....oh wait, bit late for that, but the money's good.....
Hi Bruce, the solid rubber block tread is essentially the 210 waffle pattern without the waffles, isn't it? Is so, yes I can add that one fairly easily! The types I did were ones I have been able to photograph at Bovington, so I am reasonably confident with the proportions. At this size though, even tiny variations in the primer paint, casting, even the sla process, can all conspire sometimes. I'll see just how these look and maybe tweak them a bit.
The T51 is the waffle track without the waffle..... Seriously, these tracks could be a real success for you and a boon to those trying to make the most accurate models possible. I have 3-4 sets of the Hard Corps Models 1/48 T49 3-bar steel track, which is articulated; it actually is 3D printed with all the working pins, etc., as one continuously linked set. Quite wonderful, but very pricey, and now out of production. Your inclusion of these tracks IS the answer to a maiden's prayer, since these were widely used in the Pacific and ETO. The W210 waffle tracks are also needed for the Grants and a lot of the British Lees. Since I am building some 60 Sherman gun tanks, plus two M12 SPG 155s and two M30 ammo carriers for the same, and at least a half dozen M10/M36/Achilles tank destroyers, I am going to be your best customer...I promise.....
Tim, it occurs to me that if you do produce the range of tracks we've seen here, and you can sell them for the best price your conscience and budget will allow, distribution would seem to me to be the main obstacle. If you can afford the discounts and want to move as much product as possible, enlisting at least a few major distributors (like Track48) would help get your tracks in the public eye.
Even though most modelers do not do "conversions", replacing one set of link and length track with another is basically like building a stock kit. Yes, there is the extra expense, but since Tamiya makes only the T48 rubber chevron track, modelers who want to duplicate a tank seen in a picture have to limit themselves to Shermans equipped only with T48 tracks. And, the extra Tamiya T48 track can be used on another model if desired (or an old Bandai kit, which would need the better tracks). Trust us, we have your best interests at heart.....
Wow, Mr. Perry...What I see, exceed by far, my wildest dream !
I hardly wait the moment, when I can order ALL OF THEM.
Greetings from Bucarest, and all the best !
Just a quick update, tread masters for 5 pattern masters prepared, just assembling them and making sure they locate together before making the first moulds. I wondered just how people went about assembling link and length tracks. I've seen several approaches, gluing them onto the running gear, or assembling them in runs so they can be painted seperately and so on. Would a jig of some sort be useful? Just a thought....
Wonderful news about your completed masters..... The method I'll use for most of the Shermans is to glue the track together from the front roadwheel around the idler and up to the rear edge of the drive sprocket. That gets the tracks as basically one assembly with an extra front section to fit over the drive sprocket and mate with the main part. I sincerely hope this is a breakthrough for you, Tim. I must applaud your entrepeneurship also in seeing a need and meeting it very quickly. I am currently printing out and collating my reference photos for the Sherman project, and will be doing about 60 models for the variety of subjects I want to do. At least half of those will require aftermarket tracks of some sort. I will need amounts of all the track types you have patterned.
Is there any chance at all that as a second tier effort, you could do some tracks with extended end connectors? I would be willing to pay upfront to support the prototyping. There are a number of track types that used EECs, but the most important would be the US rubber chevron (T48), the US steel chevron (T54E1), and the British rivetted steel chevron (T62). The US three-bar cleat steel track (T49) also had EECs, but was used less with EECs than the other types I've seen in photos. The problem of course, is that there were FOUR designs of the extended end connectors: the US pattern large square paddle, and three types produced in Europe, most of them narrower and often with the rolled edges seen on the GasoLine T54E1 tracks with EECs. If I were doing this, I'd stick with the big square ones and one of the narrower types, to keep things simpler.
The EEC tracks would require another set of printed prototypes, but you already have the track CAD done, so you'd just have to add the EEC portion to the files. I don't want to be the one who sucks you into the vortex, but if I don't do it, who will? Elderberry wine will help make your decision much easier. It's always worked for me......
Dave Reed (Login dave37167) Registered Users 74.165.140.146
Same thoughts....
December 4 2007, 3:17 PM
Bruce, We MUST stop this. Tim is going to think of us being in cahoots with each other. Mr. Perry read these very same words about 12 hours ago on his personal email....hmmmm, Tim, we really ARE only great minds thinking alike.....
But yes, we could use the EEC's on the different sets. Maybe just one style to test the waters.
I do think that Mr. Perry will be swamped with orders for these tracks when they come out. A new turret....or new tracks, are things that even an OOB builder might attempt. An easy way to get their "feet wet' in the AM world.I wish you the very best, Mr. Perry!!! Sell BUNCHES o' Dem Tracks !!!!
Tim, lad, about those tracks, have I got an idea for you.....
December 4 2007, 4:47 PM
Oh boy, when I get creative..... (Be afraid, be very afraid.....) Tim, sire, it occurs to me that it would be impossible for you to make all the known variations of Shermans tracks and make any sort of living or profit (but think of the warm glow in the cockles of your heart, especially at this Christmas season....God bless us, every one - but I digress). So, to make your Yuletide truly merry, I have formulated a plan, yes, a real plan, just for you! I know that you are making the normal Sherman tracks as complete links, and that's fine. But, for the tracks with extended end connectors, there would be 8-10 possible variations, and though you could mold that many, there'd be no end to the insanity. (Yes Virginia, there is a sanity clause....)
My truly evil suggestion would be to mold one set of track bases with the US square "paddle" EECs and one other set of track bases with the narrower "European" style of EECs. And what, you ask, are "track bases?" They are the Tamiya "skimmed" tracks you've already prepared by scraping down to half thickness so you could add your customized track faces. So now you have blank track bases with two types of EECs, and then you could simply mold the track faces separately and the modelers could order what track faces they needed and the track base with the EEC design they needed, and you would be a hero, a HERO, Tim. Think of it: the massed huzzahs ringing from every land, the torchlight parades (no, wait, someone tried that - very bad press), well you get the idea. I am passing this onto you free as a public service; that's the sort of folk we have here on Track48.
I know you'll be too choked up to thank me personally, but I know eager ears are waiting to hear.... What say, Tim - for England!
Going through the big file of pix I am printing as refs for the Sherman project, I've found at least three vehicles with T49 three-bar cleat tracks and EECs, so that's the last track type that'll need EECs too. I hate to impose, but......
Obviously Mr Perry, you're engaged in a conspiracy to bring back the British Empire by siphoning (sp?)away large sums of (largely worthless) American dollars...something which I will support both philosophically and financially. Not that it has a bloody thing to do with our hobby, but I read today that Jaguar and Land Rover are about to be sold off by Ford to an auto firm in India...I can't help but see the ultimate irony in that. So plunder on, Tim me boy. And did you make a passing reference to decals??
Colour me excited about these tracks. With regards to pre-assembled/jigs I personally like the Tamiya link-and-length approach, but this might be tricky so a jig might be the best.
Use a Spare Tamiya Lower Hull And Suspension as a Jig
December 5 2007, 11:32 AM
Tim,
I use the lower hull and suspension left over from an M10 (after poaching the engine deck, lower rear panel, exhaust, tracks, tools and accessories for an M4A2 conversion). I bet many here have a Sherman kit or two, stripped of various parts, they could dedicate to being an assembly jig. I wrapped the road and idler wheels in foil tape to keep the tracks from adhering during the gluing process (works against styrene glue, not against superglue if you use that for your tracks).
Good luck with the track sets. I would be interested in sets with the steel chevrons, both American and British.
Tim, lad, about those tracks - a little detail.....
December 5 2007, 10:25 AM
Love the audio, by the way.... It occurred to me that to make your patented Two Layer(TM) most excellent tracks (truly most excellent), it would help if there were a small ridge along both long sides of each track pad on your track bases, and then a small groove along both long edges of the track face pieces, so the track faces would just click into place, a touch of CA or your own magical sticky stuff, and the tracks are done - no muss, no fuss. Now, you don't have to thank me at all, another purely altruistic sacrifice for the cause.... And I know this is possible only if you do a CAD remake of the Tamiya tracks to thin down the Two Layer(TM) track bases, but I did see a bit of that in the CAD illustration above. Did I tell you I love the audio?
Watching at your CAD illustration, I've got an idea regarding the Sherman tracks. Why not simply make an injection mould with the different track patters as tiles? We should remove the crevron from the original Tamiya track and glue the selected pattern tile over the sanded link. This way, we could even combine different pattern links, as seen in some photos. A bit tedious, I know, but more affordable watching it from a production point of view.
Ain't no sanity clause!! Cracks me up every time....
Anyway..... Masters all done, just putting primer on them so I'll photograph them tomorrow before they go into rubber. (Ooh err.. following on the Benny Hill theme!)
Types done are, T51 plain rubber block, T62 curved cleat with three rivets, T47 sort with 3 bars, T54E1 and the British 210 waffle pattern. All have plain horns, ie no end connector extensions. Yet...
Now, I KNOW some of you are going to say why didn't I do this one, or that one, or this way, or that way, or in plastic, or metal, but I have to draw a line somewhere! So these are the types I (ME! Myself!!) need for my projects. If they work, and they SELL, I'll certainly do some more!
Design is very similar to the Tamiya kit bits, EXCEPT that there will be a bunch of 12-link pieces, and a load of single links, some with horns straight, some angled so they go around the wheels. I will of course include some instructions. There will be some spares, and the resin I use is very amenable to warming and bending; very hot (not boiling) water is ample heat, so forming them over turrets and hulls for suplimentary armour will be easy. You might need to cut a few of the 12 link parts down, but that is very simple to do. You might also have to cut the rear idler axle to allow the idler to 'float' into a position that matches the links. Just glue it back when that position is found.
Right, it's 2 am. Yawn. I'm off to bed.
Tim
www.fighting48th.com
This message has been edited by wunwinglow from IP address 82.33.107.79 on Dec 6, 2007 10:04 AM
No need to apologize; these patterns are those used by the overwhelming majority of M3/M4 medium tanks and the related vehicles. Those wishing to make T54E2 British curved chevron steel tracks have only to remove the rivets from the T62 type and they are home. I certainly hope these sell well, as I really HATE the thought of bending up literally thousands of PE EECs to do all the Shermans that will need them. Well done!
I'm still churning out sub-masters at the moment, so I haven't made a set of final production moulds quite yet, and until I know how long they take to cut, and of course how long they will last, I am a bit reluctant to quote an actual price yet. I am aiming to have them in the $12-$16 range, per set, however. The amount of resin used is fairly small, but with 'spiky' bits like this mould life can be relatively short, so replacing the moulds becomes much more significant in terms of the final cost of production. I should have the first moulds in production immediately after the Christmas holidays. Guess what I'll be doing while I'm supposed to be at home with the family! Hm, now, if I could get my kids interested in earning some more pocket money.....
Tim
Ain't no Sanity Clause.. Ha Ha! But I'll edit my message if it is getting on peoples nerves!
I don't mean to rush you along. I wanted to get this thread back onto the first page of the discussion group. I look forward to seeing the final result. Although I do like the Tamiya link and length tracks for the Sherman kits, I look forward to assembling something other than rubber chevron tracks (without major surgery).
yes, progress is definitely being made, all the sub-master parts have been cast and I am currently mounting them all on the main casting frames, prior to making the first set of moulds. Once these, and the Crab and Tulip sets are out of my hair (what little I have....) I'll crack on with the end connector types. Aiming to have the first track sets on sale mid january, probably releasing them sequentially; I don't think I can cast enough to do them all in one go! Oh, the M4A4 DV hull is also in production now, just building a stock of castings and waiting for the etchers to get back into the swing of things. I hope the snow in Scotlan isn't going to hinder them too much!
Hi Tim, I noticed something in looking at a bunch of Sherman photos - most of the US pattern tracks (T51, T54E1, T48, T49) appear to have had mainly the square paddle EECs made in the US; there were the European patterns of EECs used, but they were less common. The British pattern tracks (T54E2, T62) seem more often to use the narrower European type EECs, though again the US pattern EECs do appear on occasion. I don't know if this will help you at all, but it's something I ran into. We are all waiting to see what your magic machine and mold factory hath wrought.....
Until this discussion was part of Track 48 I had no idea how many variants of tracks for Shermans were out there . I congratulate you on the great job your doing to provide as many variants of tracks as you can while remaining in business. Surely we all can help out by making some tracks ourselves and sharing the more obscure variants so you don't go crazy. After all we are supposed to be an interest group so let's get into it!
