Gaston Marty (Login Gaston1) from IP address 206.123.3.139
Hello Tim, thanks for your efforts.
I don't understand why you say a 1mm difference is the SAME when you didn't measure the angle differences of at least the lower plate. Note that the King Tiger's lower plate is actually 1 inch longer while being mated to a glacis plate that is two inches longer, which speaks volumes as to the difference in the sharpness of the leading edge. I don't think zimmerit will hide that...The angle of the lower plate is vastly different, as your pictures make abundantly clear, by as much as ten degrees, and the glacis may even compound this further.
I appreciate Malcom pointing out that I was closer to the truth than Panzer Tracts...
What happened to the Jagdpanther and Panther?
Just to avoid confusion, here is my wish list;
Jagdtiger King/Tiger hull depth, lower plate plus glacis angle.
Jagdpanther gun lenght from mantle. Superstructure depht to side ratio,
roof angle.Lower front/glacis plate angle.
Re: Jagtiger issue barely scratched (to Tim Perry)
March 14 2008, 5:49 PM
I forgot to add that it would be nice to have the glacis/lower front plate dimensions and angles of the Henshel Jagdtiger at Aberdeen as this is the one that convinced me.
As for the Tamiya King Tiger matching the plate dimensions of the real thing, I have to say that is quite a surprise to me, as it obviously looks much more like a Jagdtiger front hull than the other way around, as do all the modern large kits of the King Tiger.
I think this shows that an additional issue is probably that the Jagdtiger's hull is significantly deeper than the King Tiger's, and that could prove me wrong on at least one point; that the lower plate was changed to improve dirt slope crossing performance. It now appears that it could be a simple expedient to cover a deeper hull, but I am sure the above concern was never far from the designer's mind...
I still maintain that the front hull on all kits don't look at all like the real thing, as a good series of dead ahead photos would amply demonstrate if they could be matched in size.
For whatever it's worth, I agree totally with George, which is why this will be my only reply to anything posted by this mr. Marty.
Any/all discrepencies aside, I am currently building the Tamiya King Tiger, and I am most definitely NOT going to hack the hull apart over these variances.
Please Tim, don't waste any more of your time on this, I would really rather see you cast more of your lovely F48 products.
In case you're interested in what use this information is, in a few weeks/months you will see my Jagdtiger in the gallery, made from two Tamiya King Tiger hulls and one heavily modified Bandai superstructure, and in addition to the front hull issue it will look a lot closer than the King Tiger alone does with that awful turret, let me tell you! It is so poor I didn't even bother mentionning it.
Besides, I don't remember saying anything about what you should do with your kits.
Now let's see you bring us new information that is absent from all the best references...
Come on guys, Gaston raised an issue, I measured the real thing, as best I could, with the time a facilities I had, and I think I showed that there was indeed SOMETHING going on between the various hulls of these vehicles. They ARE different. How, and by how much, all I can say are the dimensions I was able to take, with my tape measure, on my own. With, I have to say, a few other things I had to do while I was there! Now, I will be returning to do some more research sometime, so if I can, I will happily try and get some more specific info, but I really would need another pair of hands, a tripod, TWO tape measures, a plumb-line, and permission from the museum to clamber all over there exhibits. I'm sure I can get a volunteer or two for the extra pair of hands, I can probably get permission, but at the moment I have a few more things to do with my time. Would you believe I am currently typing this up from my workplace, babysitting some processes so that a modelmaker can finish the part over the weekend and have the model couriered to Germany on Monday. I must be barking mad.... It is nearly midnight!
Anyway, they ARE different. I don't mind measuring a bit more next time I'm in the Museum, but if someone near Aberdeen wants to take up the baton, fine. I'd much rather spend my time on British and Commonwealth subjects, and as I won't ever be making any Wehrmacht-based products, I've got plenty to be getting on with.
But, please guys, give Gaston his due. He might have had an unfortunate way of phrasing his issues, but that is by the by. There is something up here, and someone ought to nail it, if only for historical consistancy.
Tim
www.fighting48th.com
This message has been edited by wunwinglow from IP address 62.173.118.6 on Mar 14, 2008 7:39 PM
If someone feels something is important to bring to the table, so be it. I think it is a good policy to let people have their say no matter whether we agree with them or not.
So let's keep it cordial gentlemen.
Garfield
The nature of freedom. In order to have free speech you have to have the freedom to be offended. I agree with you guys that this whole thing seems to be pointless. But then I am not into accuracy I just build for the sheer fun of it. (Wait till you see me scratch Pz IV-F1 based on the IVJ and you will see what I mean.) If you want the issue to go away, ignore it.
Thank you Garfield, point well made. My worry is that Martys original comments had an unfortunate, probably entirely unintentional edge to them, which put a few peoples backs up. I wonder if he had phrased it in a more approachable way, we would all be fascinated by the potential little 'scoop' he had thought he had uncovered, and I hope intrigued with the dimensions I turned up. But however it has arrisen, there is the best part of 200 tons of steel, 60-odd years old, sitting in a hangar in Dorsetshire, that has no interest in what we lot think about the situation; they are different, and that's that!!!
It appears that the Tamiya kit is cock-on for the Tiger II, which, considering Tamiya more than likely used Bovingtons vehicles to prepare their tooling data, is not in the least bit surprising. What is at issue here is, that if anyone wants to build an ACCURATE JagdTiger, using the Tamiya Tiger II hull as a basis is going to be SLIGHTLY wrong. How, and where, and even why, we don't know yet, unless there is some lurker out there laughing his socks of as us idiots all run around like headless chickens, while he sits on a full set of production drawings his grandfather squirreled away during the war.... But Marty was challenging the oft-repeated assumption that the hulls were the same. Just repeating an untruth lots of times doesn't make it any less untrue! And it is no good people getting hot under the collar about it, 'cos remember, the tanks DON'T CARE!
Anyway, I was just a bit concerned that for all his slightly spikey words, Marty had a point to make, which he did, and we, as a group, should thank him for that, even if we, individually, might have a different perspective on its proportional importance. It's a German tank, so frankly I couldn't give two hoots, for example. But I like to get things right, and I appreciate others who try to do the same. And if I can help them, I will try to do that.
Marty,
Thank you for this wonderful insight into the world of the differences between the King Tiger/Tiger II and the Jagd-Tiger hulls. But since only a few hundred Tiger 2 types were made and maybe 60 Jagd-Tigers from different manufacturers who were getting the hell bombed out of them, trying to train or replace skilled workers with slave labour, trying to procure scarce or non-existant materials, while trying to meet production demands. I'll not lose any sleep over differences in a 1/48 scale model. Now, give it up Lad! You have wasted too much of your time on what is a trivial subject. Go build some models! I promise not to be critical of any differences from the original, and neither will the rest of the group. This is supposed to be a forum where we share ideas and show off our work. And if I ever find time to finish a model I won't be worried about every plate size, angle or what the exact colour scheme of a particular vehicle was on the third Tuesday of Feruary at 9:00PM in moonlight in a rainstorm when the photo was taken by a drunk journalist with suspect quality film!
Let's get some perspective on what's happened. Nothing.
Mr. Marty can allege to have proven his point, but it has minimal impact on the 1/48 modeling community.
Tamiya does not make a 1/48 Jagdtiger. There can be no accuracy problems with something that doesn't exist.
Tim's examination of the Tiger II (albeit limited to this point) suggests that the Tamiya kit of this vehicle is VERY accurate.
Any differences that may exist between the two are so small as to be virtually indiscernable to the naked eye once scaled down to 1/48, so if somebody has a conversion in the works it's still no big deal.
Everybody can go back to building models now. (I know you were all waiting for my go-ahead)
PS - I agree with Tim that as a matter of interest in history some further objective investigation of this matter is necessary. As he says, it seems that there is SOMETHING going on. Curious.
Let me be the 'devil's advocate' and stir the pot a bit. I'll also be making a target of myself for this, but even though Mr. Marty is probably making a mountain out of a mole hill, a lot of people here were raising similar issues over the infamous HB Sherman discepencies scandal. (HB Shermans did have some merit: casting marks, weld seams, fine detail. etc.)
Aha, but what about temperature differences? Have we established whether a Pz III in the freezing cold in Russia is actually SMALLER than a Pz III in the Western Desert??? There could be a 70-80 degrees Centigrade difference in the temperature (-40 to +40), so the warm Pz IV would actually be slightly LARGER! Tamiya's Pz III kits are therefore USELESS as they do not take into consideration the potential difference! I'm giving up modelling altogether now since I feel I can not accurately represent the real world in an accurately scaled representation.
Dave Reed (Login dave37167) Registered Users 68.52.83.113
Your meds, Lad....
March 15 2008, 6:51 AM
Nik, Time to take your meds....and lie down. Everything will be okay in the morning. And there are Afrika decals on the horizon.....and maybe figures.......SEE!, It will be just fine......What?? Yes, Nurse Ratchett, I DO have the Elderberry Whine.......Why??
Bob, don't even think it! From what I understand, the glacis plate would be the very LEAST of your worries with that kit! You would be way better off starting from scratch and getting it all completely right. Then thems that don't care still won't care, but thems that do won't do the equivalent collective hatchet job that we have done on HobbyBoss' Sherman kits. We don't want you giving up because your next kit got a hammering from the Experten. Which is what HobbyBoss seem to have done....
Tim got the goods !!! Looks like Gaston was right ! ! ! It will be interesting to see if this discovery will make the transition into the literature and ultimately the scale modeling world.
Now, as Tim very rightly observes, if you are going to try and apply this discovery to correcting a Bandai Jadgtiger, at least you will have one set of dimensions correct on that puppy So far no one but the Amazing Steve Faxon has attempted that feat (go Steve !). Now it sounds like Gaston might have a lot more of them right on his ambitious Jadgtiger conversion project - hope he will share pictures with us all
Oh heck no Tim, wasn't thinking about Mastering it. Getting the Panther A correct is enough of a headache right now, don't need any more! I have a Tamiya King Tiger that is sitting here collecting dust and wanted a challenging, "just for fun" scratchbuilding project. I figured some of the Bandai kit parts might be worth using.
Bob
Bob and Steve
Top Gun Military/IRON DIVISON Resins
www.topgunmilitary.com
Nice looking or not, the Bandai's are notoriously wonky on scale and preportion Did you catch the post about the lower front deck on the Jadgtiger - that would push things around, now wouldn't it.
(HB Shermans did have some merit: casting marks, weld seams, fine detail. etc.)