Why we left 1/35th scale, OR "are these guys nuts?"
April 4 2008 at 11:19 PM
(no login) from IP address 24.18.177.21
I go to this web site every week, for a brief look at what has been released onto the Japanese hobby market. I suggest each of you check out what has come out this week, and you will see just how insane the 1/35th guys have become. Firstly, there is a magnificently detailed, mostly resin, German machine gun. WOW, what detail. But then scroll down a bit, past the latest releases from Royal Models, until you get to the teeny tiny little "nuts", turned from brass, for the backs of Panzers. INSANE! But the mantra today seems to be, "produce it, and they will buy it"
Re: Why we left 1/35th scale, OR "are these guys nuts?"
April 5 2008, 5:07 AM
Never mind the 1/35 "nuts", what caught my attention was the item above them. A Japanese tank stowage set from MR. While the translated text listed it as 1/35 and only a 1/35 set appears on their site, the photo is clearly marked 1/48. Is this a simple mistake, or does MR know something we don't?
Re: Why we left 1/35th scale, OR "are these guys nuts?"
April 7 2008, 10:08 AM
I left 1/35 because modelers were getting too particular. If you built a kit OOB someone would comment why you didn't build the most recent company's much better version.
For example, "Why'd you build the Tamiya T-34, the DML kit is so much better."
Then if you built the newer kit they'd wonder why you didn't use PE or a barrel.
Then if you built the better kit and used Eduard PE and a barrel, they'd ask, "Why did you use the Eduard PE, the Aber PE is so much better." And "Why'd you use the Elefant barrel, the Model Point barrel is so much better."
And if you used the Aber PE they'd say, "I can't believe you built that kit with the Aber PE and didn't bother to replace the kit tracks with Fruilmodel!"
And when you build something with all the bells and whistles, they tell you the kit decals are wrong and you should have used Archer transfers.
I'm not sure where this latest generation is headed when they buy houses with money they don't have, and they buy kits and AM at prices that would raise the roof 20 years ago!!
George Bradford
AFV NEWS
This message has been edited by George_Bradford from IP address 65.93.143.120 on Apr 7, 2008 3:55 PM This message has been edited by George_Bradford from IP address 65.93.143.120 on Apr 7, 2008 3:54 PM
I may have said this before but..... here are a couple of definitions of an expert.
1. Ex as in 'has-been', and spurt, as in 'drip under pressure'.
2. Someone who knows more and more about less and less, until he know everything about nothing.
The guys who are usually worth listening to are the ones who explain how little they realise they know, rather than the ones who tell you how much they DO know. That streak of humility, and an understanding that no-one knows it all, so there is ALWAYS something to learn, is the mark of a true expert.
Rob is right on the money with his depiction of many 1/35th types, and Tim with "experts". The problem in the hobby is that rather than worrying about their own projects, many chose to put their noses into the business of others. We have a fellow in our local hobby club who delights in wandering up to you and your model on display, looking it over, and asking if you would like a "critique", and before you can say "no, thanks, really I don't" he is giving you one anyway. The fellow is very knowledgable, there is no doubting it, but he lacks a certain social grace, shall we say.
I used to build all my models very happily, thinking each and every one of them was very "cool". Then I joined a club, and suddenly discovered there were others who took the hobby to higher levels than I. However, rather than accepting that we are all different, "each to their own", and not ever man wants to build to higher and higher levels, I simply got an inferiority complex! And this fits in with what Rob has to say above. Many now are made to feel "inferior" if they aren't building the latest and greatest kit, with a ton of AM products, and taking their model to "award winning" standards.
I am now making a determined effort to look over each kit I decide to build, and taking things are far as I wish to, not as far as others might wish me to. I build for me, not the desires of others.
And I find that many so called "experts" don't build any more. But rather than give up the hobby, they reclassify themselves. From model builders, to model critics. They have spent years buying all the books, reading all the articles, visiting and photographing all the museum exhibits, and so they might as well put their material to use. Not to build better models themselves, but to criticise kits, and the models built by those still building.
Sooner or later someone will take this scale into the same lane as the 1/35 scale. I saw it happend fairly recently to 1/72 scale. When I started travelling a lot for my job in 2000, I started taking 1/72 scale kits in a small tackle box with basic model building supplies.
There wasn't a lot of aftermarket for 1/72 scale armor, just some old Eduard PE sets for Esci kits. Eventually, when the quality of 1/72 scale armor started to improve with Revell of Germany and Dragon kits, the aftermarket bug set in.
The 1/76-1/72 small scale categories were mainly comprised of OOB builds and a few resin conversions at area shows in 2002-2004. The last show I entered a kit in in 2005, the majority of the 1/72 scale models were no longer OOB. Although I entered several kits at that show, the only one to win an award was a Panther I converted into a Bergepanzer. My OOB kits looked naked along side the newer kits with PE parts and resin stowage.
This one one of my reasons for jumping onto the 1/48 scale bandwagon when it started up. That and the fact that I grew up on the old Aurora kits and loved the old Bandai kits.
See the Mig chapter on, "Is it really necessary in this world to have that class of people who always criticize the works of others but never do anything themselves?"
Man, this book has a lot of good tips!
Rob, you are quite correct, and the recent threads with Gaston Marty show the way it can go. Gaston is one who sets very high standards for his critical analysis, and others will follow. This is an inevitable part of the process of acceptance of a new scale in modeling, or a new facet of any human activity. We will (indeed we already have) see modelers winning contests with 1/48 stuff, and when that becomes a regular event, and not just a "fluke", the heavy hitters will climb aboard. This scale has many advantages, among them the fact that the kits so far don't have a lot of basic parts, which in turn means there will be more time for adding the detail and making the corrections so dear to the hearts of the "experten." We all have seen 1/48 models here or on M-L that are as good and convincing as any 1/35 model (of course, Steve Zaloga can do this in 1/76.... ). With better kits and more AM, this will become more common.
As folks age, they also will eventually be confronted with demographics: "I have 241 kits in the stash, I'm 53 years old, and I finish one 'Bruce Beamish masterwork' a year....." (Joke for the old IPMSers in the group). Some of them will be moved to go to a scale where they can finish more of the kits they want to build, in a more reasonable timeframe. That will mostly mean us. So, ready or not folks, they are coming - maybe not this year, maybe it'll be a couple of years yet, but they will be coming here. I have a really bad case of AMS myself, so in a sense, the pod people are here now.....
What to do. The best thing is to maintain the positive tone this site has always tried to maintain. If folks can just learn to ignore the trolls, most of them will go away. They want to pick fights and ruin other people's enjoyment, and if they can't do that, they'll go elsewhere. It can be very hard to resist; these clowns - like most sociopaths, for that is what they are - know how to get your goat, and for a time, until they go away, they will try harder and harder to cause discord. We've seen them ruin other sites, and they will most probably try here.
Even the best moderated sites have troll problems, and Garfield won't have the time with a full-time job to moderate this DG if things go south. That means much of the cleanup and discipline has to come from us. A site can be relatively troll-free if the members do not rise to the bait. Trolls are just like computer hackers: they will go where the return on investment is greatest. PCs have all sorts of malware problems because there are so many PCs in the world. Hacking Macs is much rarer because there are relatively few Macs compared to PCs: no payoff.
If we can keep this site positive, welcoming, and encouraging to modelers, we'll escape the worst of troll-dom. Personally, I think we can do it, as long as we recognize we have all sorts of modelers in the group: OOB builders only, detail hounds, people who use PE, people who don't, etc. If we allow room for all builders here, we'll do well. If not.....
we are just like the 1/35, just at a smaller scale.... sorry I could not resist.
as a newer modeler {I am 57 but, I just got back into modeling and airbrushing} I have been practicing various techniques { I get involved in the Fine Scale Modelers' group builds} and I might make some between the builds for finishing practice.
I hope I am getting better, I may not be at the level of you guys or FSM modelers, but I am looking to improve. An example is my Super Pershing, Steve commented on my first WIP, I was just adding his parts and NOT looking at the other changes I needed. His comment has changed my modeling, I am now trying to match the prototype as close as I can {and it is being built for a GB}
I enjoy seeing the builds with small PE parts, I won't be doing this anytime soon, but I do like seeing them. {like the almost complete body of the halftrack in PE eek!}
I am into 1/48 for three reasons:
1. same scale as airplanes for combined dioramas
2. smaller, takes up less space on the shelf
3. CHEAPER than most of the 1/35 kits
the main downside is lack of kits I want, but they seem to be coming {Tamiya, check out the prices on Bandai 1/48 kits, time to fill THAT need!}
When someone comments, I would like to see two things from them, first, they have THEIR builds posted to see their work, and second they SHARE their techniques especially if they are downgrading another modelers techniques.
As for kits missing prototype measurements, some we can deal with and some the kit manufactures need to deal with, but either way I am not gonna sweat it, if I am in a contest they are not going to nuke my build because I did not correct an error by the manufacturer {if they do I don't want to play with them anyway!}
I certainly do not want to exclude anyone who feels the need to buy all the latest 1/48 scale aftermarket items to add to their kit. I enjoy looking at the level of detail highly skilled modelers add to their builds.
I do not mind someone critiquing my build, pointing out any construction issues I may have missed, sloppy paint job, etc. What I don't like is somoeone with a condescending attitude who points out that I did not correct a manufacturer's flaw (i.e. the hull angle is wrong) or didn't use aftermarket parts (i.e. Aber makes a detail set that corrects the kit's flaw).
I enjoy building models. Right now 1/48 scale gives me plenty of joy, is relatively cheap and has a so-so selection (I like modern armor and there's not much mainstream out there). I post photos when I happen to get the camera out for some other reason. Lately I've been stockpiling built kits waiting for the spring weather to stabilize so I can airbrush a good number of them at once.
Just before I get lumped in with the rivet counters, I would just like to point out I don't put such a premium on accurate details, hinges, latches, clamps and tools as many are able to do even in our scale.
I insist mostly on accurate overall shape to within one mm because it seems to me it is a somewhat unexamined area in our hobby that would distinguish kits that are more satisfiying from those that will eventually be made obsolete by a new release, should it ever come...
I think most work in the gallery is superior to what I do, and my critiques are entirely aimed at manufacturers who condemn a lot of good work to eventual and undeserved obsolescence if put side by side with a newer release, which in my opinion doesn't really have to ever happen if the basic shapes are right.
You are absolutely right on this. While there may be instances where a company omits certain details because of cost considerations, there simply is no excuse for basic errors in accuracy in most models, and this is particularly true when the subject is still available for research. Think what Hobby Boss's reputation would have been if they had gotten the Shermans right; most of their other kits have been among the best ever done in 1/48. Small details can be added, and minor errors can be fixed, but if the basic shapes are wrong, it will require scratchbuilding a new model to correct. Your perceived height error in the Tamiya M4 is an example; it is very easy to fix by adding an .020" (.5mm) bottom piece under the hull and raising up the bolt strip on the transmission housing. These are fairly simple to do, and in the case of the hull bottom, it will also cover the open sponsons Tamiya has always given us for US tanks from the beginning. But there are other problems (the KT turret roof angles and cupola height) that will be harder for most people to correct. Some of us can do that, but there shouldn't be a NEED to do it.
We are fortunate that, overall, more of our 1/48 models are reasonably accurate than in any other scale. In part, that is because the push for greater accuracy came before Tamiya began the renaissance in 1/48, and so there was more accurate information available to do the 1/48 kits. There is a real difference between a kit that is produced to a lower standard of finesse but has an accurate overall shape, and one that has such basic errors in shape and major detail that the modeler must scratchbuild a new structure, or wait for an expensive aftermarket set just to have reasonable accuracy. Fortunately for 1/48, the models are small enough, and the AM community has been quick enough that, say, the HB Sherman errors are no longer really a problem, as there are inexpensive resin corrections/conversions for all the Sherman variants out there.
Most of the models so far have been of acceptable accuracy for most of us, and the older hands will do what it takes to get to the standards they want to achieve. We'll keep pushing for better accuracy and more consideration for the SCALE modelers here in 1/48; that will help all of us eventually.
Though this is not the subject of this thread, I would like to point out to you a slight misunderstanding about the Sherman issue before you cut any plastic!
I think that on Tim Perry's 3d computer graphic, which is excellent in its depiction of the error, you mistook the CORRECT line for the incorrect one and vice versa, because they were both the same color, and I confused the issue further by mistakenly stating that the Tamiya side armor was too shallow, untill I found out in my notes LATER that it was only an APPEARANCE of shallowness caused, strangely enough, by the Tamiya rear diagonal upper bevel being TOO DEEP, and therefore causing the upper HORIZONTAL portion of the Tamiya side armor to appear as a LESS of a peak.
This is compounded further by the REAL rear diagonal upper bevel reaching further FORWARD, making the horizontal upper edge about 4 inches SHORTER, and thus giving it an even more "peaky" appearance compared to the kit, despite BOTH having the exact SAME correct depth.
I am sorry that my raising the point from memory caused this confusion.
If only the Tamiya kit WAS too shallow in profile it would be indeed easy to fix it like you say, by raising the entire top hull higher. Unfortunately for us the Tamiya kit is TOO accurate in depth for our convenience, and I see no easy fix for this other than using the cast hull and loading the glacis with supplies or armor.
