Starting on the Firefly. The Tamiya instructions say XF-61 Dark Green, not Olive Drab. Its a very British looking color, but is it right?

Thanks

Scott

For a Firefly, the more likely color is plain Olive Drab (US. OD-9).
If is repainted after conversion, the color must be SCC-15, British Olive Drab.
For SCC15, I use Erik Liljegren mix for Tamiya acrylics:

SCC15 = XF-62 + XF-58 ( 5 : 4 )

HTH

Dragos

Some sources state that WWll British OD was very close to US OD, so that they would not have to repaint the Lend-Lease US vehicles. Post-war British green is usually called "Bronze-Green". With their WWll OD, after fading and weathering, it would probably be indistinguishable from US OD, although US OD did fade out to a slightly brownish color.

Hi mate;

Although much has been made of this, speaking strictly for myself, OD is OD is ODis OD......

There are two good choices, if, like me, you are using acrylics: Tamiya XF62 OD, or Gunze's #320 Olive Drab (II). Both are excellent choices for scale olive, but they are somewhat dark. I "fade" them to scale by adding Tamiya XF60(?) Dark Yellow.

I don't really distinguish between British and US Olive, to me they are basically the same.

Hope this helps, and Cheers, Pat

p.s. I hope we will be seeing another great model from you soon. P.

See Pat, you can say things like that on this forum. Try it on some others I could care to mention, and the Farbe Polizei would be down on you like a ton of bricks....

Tim

www.fighting48th.com

nobody will know or care what the original "out of the factory" color was..... It is probably true that many color standards did not change during the war (of course, others DID change), but what the paint manufacturers managed to make, given the shortages of materials and the resultant need to alter mixing formulas, were often only within spitting distance of the "standard" color chip. In 1943, the US removed Cadmium Green from the list of approved pigments because cadmium was desperately needed for metal treatment. Guess what one of the major components of OD was..... And, OD was one of the most unstable colors used by anyone in WW2. There would be no visible difference between US and British ODs after normal weathering. Period. The bride will tell you I'm a heretic..... Then there's always the letter from the German Air Ministry to paint manufacturers, sympathizing with their struggles to deal with shortages of pigments and binders, and asking them to "do the best that you can." Precise colors? Only one correct color shade? Feh!

I did a research paper on German color formulas in Africa. This is not the all inclusive list I found then....but just a few of what the Germans used to dilute the pigments supplied to the Panzer Armee Afrika........Paint thinner, gasoline, motor oil, antifreeze, good ol' water.....beer, liquor, wine, goats milk, seawater and urine. So the next time some know it all tells you that that is the "wrong shade".....tell him to take a hike!! And then....factor in the the captured stocks of any nation over there....automotive products.....house products. ANYTHING they could lay their hands on to dilute and apply it!! Wonder what Panzer yellow paste thinned with some wine, goats milk and piss...with some Citroen yellow thrown in....looked like?? Wow, I'l bet it smelled REALLY good in the hot Sun, too!!! Probably had the resident lizards in heat!!!
And you think there are problems with OD....?? !!!!

Amen (in spades) to all of the above. Those pristine Shermans landing in Normandy had already spent months in England's marvelous temperate climate...not to mention the tender loving care of tank crews clambering all over their chargers and carefully stowing gear!

I could tell you about the B-1 bomber sections LTV built that were so dirty from people walking on them and touching them with grease stained hands that they looked like interior green, instead of the yellow zinc chromate they were actually painted. They had to be taken to the paint shop and thoroughly cleaned before they could be painted again for shipment to North American/Boeing for final assembly. Planes waiting on the flight line for test flights were weathered by the time testing was done, and the paint around the Dzus fasteners and screws was really messed up. "Factory new" to a lot of people is "auto showroom new", but that didn't exist in the defense industry.

There is a noticable difference between the US and British Olive Drabs. According to the chaps I spoke to, the American colour was rather brown compared to the British shade which is a definite dark green. Having compared FS 33070 and SCC 15 this becomes very obvious. Even more so after weathering, not that tanks lasted too long in Normandy anyway.

A picture says a thousand words - two US vehicles; two colors

I was under the impression the British OD color was intended to make it possible to avoid repainting British Lend-Lease vehicles, but if these shades are so far apart, it would appear that most Fireflies probably would have been repainted in the SCC 15 green. The standard for OD #9 was greener than most of the model paints I've seen except the Tamiya acrylic OD. I have seen painted models in this color, but I use enamels and lacquers myself, so I can't comment on the Tamiya OD. There certainly is no olive green in SCC 15.

Do not put too much faith in the name of the British colour as being like the US shade. Prior to the adoption of SCC 15, British vehicles were SCC 2 (brown) basic. For convenience and a degree of common colouring the Brits were able to produce a green shade in sufficient quantities by the end of 1943 to adopt a new colour. The British had always prefered green as a camouflage colour, it was pre-war and again early war but severe chemical shortages forced the various Ministries to adopt brown as an interim colour pending the chemical industries' ability to find an alternative chemical substitute. A note I have says they did but it was not much used. Which begs the question, was it used in SCC 15 or by 1943 the progress of the war and shipping allowed chromium oxide to be used once more although perhaps in a more limited quantity? I have yet to find documents which give a commencement date for the production of SCC15 but tens of thousands of gallons would have been required fairly quickly too since paint scales allow an average of 1 gallon per vehicle.

Thank you for the insight. All paint manufacturers had problems meeting the relevant standards, primarily due to shortages of once-common pigments and binders. Since the SCC 2 brown was so common in the mid-war period, how many vehicles still,carried this brown shade during the campaign in Normandy and France? Obviously, this would seem to depend on supplies of the SCC 15 green paint. Do you have any documents that might hint at the camouflage situation in the mid-1944 time period?

I don't yet have any documents regarding colour status in mid-1944. Apparently the majority of vehicles intended for front line units were painted SCC 15 by D-Day. Some were new issues and some were unit workshop or civilian depot repaints. In addition numbers of vehicles of support and echelon units remained brown. You will see on many photographs that the bodywork is a single darkish colour whilst the canvas tilt is lighter with dark camouflage patterning, almost exclusively to MTP46 as it should be. The darker colour should have been SCC 14 black but many vehicles still had SCC 1A instead. This last looks lighter and is often described as faded black but it isn't that at all. Some units applied black or brown camo. to their green trucks after landing so camo. wasn't done away with immediately. The discontinuance of disruptive painting does not occur till an ACI of August 1944 and then only for Home Based vehicles in SCC 15. Those in brown were to continue using it until repainted. Replacement vehicles for Europe were not camouflaged so there was gradual shift away from camo'd. vehicles but again there were still thousands in Europe by May 1945 with camo. and some in brown. I have photographs of Bedford OX trucks at the Berlin airlift in full 'MM' camo.

Let's up the ante, just for confusion's sake - what color were Canadian vehicles???

Simple answer; same as British vehicles.

At least there is the possibility of having a few different camouflage schemes on British armour and trucks. Since I have a number of the Austin K5s from Bandai, this will give me a chance to build one or two in perhaps unique schemes. I haven't had much luck finding K5s in WW2 photos, but we keep trying.....

In 1943 go for SCC 2 brown basic with SCC 1A or SCC 14 black as in MTP46/4A patterning. In 1944 NWE try SCC 15 Olive Drab basic with dyed tilt or stick with the tilt as in 1943. Both would be correct. In Italy 1943 then Light Mud/ Black to the specific pattern for 3 ton trucks, now that is different with a roundel on the roof too.

I have all your WW2 British camouflage books, so I will look at the patterns and go from there. Just got "The New Breed" also; congratulations on a very useful and long needed book. I saw a propgram on the American Military Channel that showed the North African campaign in color motion picture footage, and they showed some of the Alamein Shermans: Light Stone base and the Dark Olive Green theatre color as the pattern. Really good stuff; amazing how much color film is making its way to the surface recently. Thanks again.....

Don't place too much faith in 60-odd year old color film - especially when taken in blindingly bright sumlight. Would be good for camo schemes, though.

No, you can't match paint colors, but the old color film can, in good conditions, tell you roughly what colors the equipment was painted. Usually, if the color film images are very contrasty or the color balance is way off, you can tell easily and make the necessary adjustments in your interpretation. Some of it is pretty badly washed out though. The Kodachrome that has been stored properly often looks like brand new photography. Anscochrome, another color film used in the Pacific, was very unstable and the dyes often faded until the image was completely gone. I've seen Ansco color transparencies in the National Archives that were as blank as color film leader - nothing there at all.

Maybe we should consult Mr. Marty on his opinion.

Bruce, since you bought those books, a long time research has found that the early Khaki Green and light and dark greens are wrong. BT White misled us all. I now have Khaki Green matched and provisional colours for the others. All the rest of the colours are correct for 1941 on.

should I be replacing, Mike? I bought all mine from John Rauscher a year or so ago, and I know there are newer versions out. My interests are primarily Africa, Sicily-Italy, and NW Europe. Come to think of it, that's the whole ball of wax, isn't it?

Hi Bruce, I have updated my books in bits and pieces over the years. As I obtain tidbits of gen I insert them on the basic PC copy then when the next very short print run needs doing I insert the new pages. The NWE book has corrected colours for BEF. Well one is, one is based on what was found on some dated parts and the other is somewhat speculative but based on what is the probable practice at the time. Also a larger section on vehicle markings with colour pages.

I now have a MEGO for the Light Mud/ black Italy scheme and a bit on the early use of Light Mud which seems to have been available as early as March 1943 to 26th A.B. in Tunisia.
The Caunter book now has a new section on A10 Cruisers of 3 RTR in Greece with a specific disruptive drawing based on literally dozens of photographs.

It turned out to be a busy 2007.