OK Bruce...I think I have the facts on the Tamiya SdKfz 250
July 7 2008 at 3:58 PM
(Login Ken_Kolenovsky) Registered Users from IP address 142.165.62.112
As the title states, Bruce...I think I have this down now. If you will bear with me I'll elaborate.
The Tamiya 250/3 kit appears to be a mishmash of all 3 production versions (0-series, E and Z), but is predominantly the Z body style because of the angle of the backplate.
Other Z style features evident on this kit are:
1) Driver's visors with 2 slits
2) 4 lifting hooks on hood
3) Headlights mounted on sides
4) Visor in rear door
5) The proper angled (26 degree) back plate
However, if it is a true Z it is missing or is not quite right:
1) Driver's front plate is not slanted at the correct 21 degrees (it is more like the 0-series or E style set at 30 degrees)
2) Missing the 4 lifting hooks on the crew compartment
3) Missing the armour plug on the upper right rear
4) Missing finger latches on hood
5) The 2 holes in the raised circle on the Bugpanzerschild should be filled in
6) Tool placement is not quite right
7) NEW - I have just noticed that the driver's side visor is missing the rain guard above it
Also, in my research with the Panzertracts 15-1 book, I found a strange thing with the muffler heat guards. I can't quite figure out if they were switched in and out of the various models or not, but here is what I found in the book:
1) E style has 9 over 8 slits, left justified
2) Z style has perforated holes
3) 0-series has 10 over 9 staggered
4) 250/9 E has 9 over 8 left justified, but angled up
5) 250/1 Z has 7 over 6 right justifed
6) 250/7 E has 7 over 6 left justified
7) 250/9 Z has 7 over 6 right justified
and the Tamiya kit has 8 over 7 right justified.
Quite confusing don't you think?
Ken Kolenovsky
This message has been edited by Ken_Kolenovsky from IP address 24.66.94.142 on Jul 9, 2008 11:54 PM This message has been edited by Ken_Kolenovsky from IP address 142.165.62.112 on Jul 7, 2008 4:40 PM
this looks great! Thanks for the work of getting the references together. Interesting that Tamiya's muffler guard doesn't have any of the hole patterns you found in photos and plans. I'll be back - picking up my mother for a pool party with the grandkids.....her great-grandkids (she's 93; I could be harassing the rest of you for a LONG time... ).
Ken, this ought to be a "sticky" somewhere here, or a short article to explain the differences. Since it is a certainty that Tamiya will not put out a standard production body, those who want to do any of the vast majority of '250 variants accurately will have to do a bit of "liposuction" on the rear plate. Fortunately, in 1/48, it is more about achieving the appearance of the standard body rather than enduring days of work, as on larger scales. When the AFV Club SdKfz 251 shows up, there will be later type vision port covers to use as patterns for quicky castings for our '250s, and other parts that can help us mod the Tamiya kit. Basically, adjusting the driver's front plate angle and taking in the rear plate and reworking the lower rear body will cover most of the obvious large things. The mudguards will need changing, but this is adding the beading and changing some contours. The rest are details, important but relatively easy to do. (I know: define "easy.") A nice analysis of the Tamiya GREIF.
I thought this kit was saved by the 800 plus Hungarian production run!
Now there is this driver's visor plate angle issue, exactly what a demmanding and low-skill modeller like me doesn't need. How and why could such an error occur? Does Dragon give such a hard time to the already spoiled 1/35th crowd?
The other issues appear to be of a less severe nature, but tilting plates on such a diminutive subject does not appear particularly easy, or is it?
Unless someone tells me either the rear or front plate is easy, I'm inclined to fatten up my auction pile, I'm afraid... (See IPMS Ottawa for details of the Sept. 7 auction)
Hope you don't give up on your 250 Gaston - although there are lots of interesting details to consider on the 250 in this thread (and some great research work teasing them out of the reference books), I am not going to let this knowledge ruin my fun. I really encourage everyone to "just build it" to paraphrase the slogan. Remember, no mater what you do, all models are flawed. The fun is in trying to make them less flawed.
After all, it is such a cute little bugger, warts and all
No Problems with the Research if you Don't Want to Fix the 250
July 10 2008, 1:27 PM
I agree Konrad! My endeavour here was not to ruin anyone's fun in the build, but to give them the benefit of my knowledge gained with the Panzertract book in case they so choose to fix the 250. I will make some of the slightly easier modifications to make it a Z version, but I don't think I want to hack up the driver's plate just for the sake of 9 degrees. Having looked through the Panzertracts book, I think it will be really easy to convert one of my 250/3's to a 250/9 with the help of one of my ICM 222 turrets. The only hard part to scratchbuild will be the pedestal mount supporting the gun, but I think it will be doable!
Once again, don't let my research ruin anyone's fun for building the Tamiya 250. Fun is as fun does! (Thanks Forrest.)
I still will have fun with the SdKfz 250. I think all in all its a nice model (only really dislike the figures and the awful jerry cans) and would like to convert a 252 and a 250/9 from it in time.
Thanks for detailing the production differences.
Looking forward to the AFV Club 251. Wasn't that supposed to come out these days?
Fun, fun, fun 'til someone takes your T-Bird away!
July 10 2008, 2:45 PM
Your welcome Manfred! I know exactly what you mean about the figures and jerry cans! My list of fixes for the Z version of the Tamiya 250 is really quite easy to do - all except point number 1. As I said before, I don't feel the need to hack up the front plate for a mere 9 degrees, but the rest can be done in about 10 minutes. Not bad if you ask me! However, trying to convert the Tamiya kit to an E or 0-series version would be out of my league as the back end has to be forced out much more. I believe that would be in Bruce's domain! (and an ample supply of that Elderberry wine!)
Ken, the fix for the driver's plate angle is not hard, but many will not want to cut up the kit to do the fix. There are two approaches. First, you can use a razor saw and cut the driver's plate loose from the top and upper sides, raise it to the proper angle, and cement strip styrene to set it in place and fill the gaps. Or, you can cut a piece of .020" (.5mm) sheet plastic, bevel the bottom, place it over the kit driver's plate and shim it in place and fill with plastic stock or epoxy filler. Look on the bright side: the standard bodies were far more common and it's much easier to change the rear plate than the front, so in the long run, the Tamiya error here will save you work for most of your conversions..... piece of cookie (with apologies to Don Rickles). All those burning bridges.......
It seems to me that the rear body plate is larger, not moulded as a separate plate, with large contact surfaces with several other plates. I don't quite see how that could be easier to move than the driver's visor plate.
Perhaps you mean that in one case there is no material to add to obtain the new angle, while there is for the 9 degrees up front.
It seems also, but I am out my depth here, that there are more small (read hard-to-do) details that are inclined towards the Z body(253 type?)than towards the more common types.
To clarify, I would like a summary of the laziest possible way to get an accurate kit, regardless of how uncommon that sub-type was. This is generally not the type of subject that most modellers would make into an ambitious project, but it does make a nice size comparison to larger vehicles. Hence the minimizing of effort should play a large role in the description of at least one set of necessary modifications...
The Tamiya kit is supposed to represent the "Z" ('253) type body, as that is the body used for the GREIF. The driver's front plate error is unfortunate, but it is correct for the "E" type, the most common, standard type. So, you must decide which version you want to do. Service test examples of several versions of the '250 series were built on the "Z" body, so there are a few models you can do off the bat and apparently one armor fabricator continued to build the "Z" type body for some time, and these were delivered and incorporated into standard production lines, so IF you have the photos, you could model one of these rogue vehicles built using the original '253 type body. There were a lot more of them than we thought. Those methodical Germans.....
I forgot to answer Gaston's question. The simplest way to correct the Tamiya to get an accurate depiction of something is to do the driver's front plate correction. Since you get to use all the other Tamiya details, it's probably the easiest way to go. If you mod the hull to represent the "E" production version, then you need new drivers' visors, changed mudguards, and all the other detail changes. Ken's list is an excellent reference for laying out the tasks at hand whichever way you choose to go. Good luck.....
Sounds like correcting the diver's plate to the "Z" configuration is the easiest way to go to solve Gaston’s dilemma - as a point of order, do I correctly understand that the driver's plate is not quite vertical enough - e.g. that it needs to be laid back at 21 degrees from the vertical rather than 30 degrees (e.g. the top edge needs to move forward a smidge) ?
When this is the problem I have had success changing the exterior angle of a hull plate by cutting a styrene overlay and carefully sanding it to the necessary taper to correct the angle of the plate at issue - it can take a couple of tries, but when done you laminate it to the kit with liquid cement, let the cement cure and block sand the edges to finish - if the glue is fully cured usually there is no shrinkage and no filler is required.
that's exactly the easiest way to do it. I didn't explain it well in the post above. You'd start with measuring the angle difference and determining the gap at the upper edge. Use that thickness of sheet styrene and sand down until the lower side is a sharp edge. That will give you the needed part. I'd guess .030" or .040" sheet would do the job. Good tip. Oh, Konrad, I found the shots of the model SdKfz 223 interior. I'l have the bride scan them and I'll get them off to you this weekend.
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