Hiya all

A question for those far more learned than I.
With the idea of converting a 250/3 to a 250/9 I wondered about what to do with the shell of my 222 and wondered about converting it to a 261 radio car.

Does anyone know if the antenna of the Grief is the same size as the one on the 261?

Any clues as to the layout of the radio inside the 261? Is it similar to the Grief?

Cheers
Peter M.

that's a good question and I have my books close by, after a very preliminary inspection of "photo's only" I would say you may be onto something. I am working on a 223 and can say for certain that the GRIEF antenae does not work for it, too narrow. I will be doing some more looking for you and get back as soon as I can.

I can not find any drawings of the 260/261 but from the photo's I have found it would appear to me that the 261 has the same antenae as the 223. That means that the GRIEF part is about a foot short and around 2 feet too narrow. The reference material I have also states that the length of the 260/261 is 30mm or 1.14 feet longer than the other 4 wheeled armored cars (221, 222 and 223) and 40mm or 1.40 feet wider. I have not figured out where the length/width differences are as yet. I have plans to use the GRIEF part and just splice in styrene rod to make the adjustments for my 223.

If you built the 260 or late 261 you could use a rod antenae........

The SdKfz 222, 223, 260, and 261 are all basically the same in major dimensions EXCEPT the early SdKfz 223s dod not have the extra armored cowl over the rear radiator grill in the rear, so they were shorter. However, the later models did have the cowl, and were the same size as the other members of the 4x4 armored car family. All the 4x4 armored cars with the rear cowl were 4.80m long.

I have found TWO photos of the interior of the '261, but they are very incomplete, and not enough to build a good interior. We need the Beladeplan (stowage diagram) or the illustrated parts list to show us what went into the beasts. Lotsa luck with that.....

A foot short and 2 feet too narrow...

So if I have my maths right...

1ft = 12" x 2.45 = 29.4cm = 294mm /48 = 6mm
2ft = 24" x 2.45 = 58.8cm = 588mm /48 = 12mm

10mm to short and about 12mm to narrow? Thats workable.

The interior (if I did one) would be basic only, though I understand the Bandai 251 seats are perfect and it just so happens I have a spare parts one on hand... If it gets too difficult I will just be lazy and use a tarp cover.

I wonder if theres an aftermarket interior for ICM's 1/72 scale....

P.

For the panzer tracts you scanned. They confirmed that the 261 uses the same radio as the Grief.

I found these shots athttp://www.afrikakorps.org/german.htm







I am guessing from the above shots that the radios are against the rear wall of the crew compartment. Thoughts?

P.

If you look at the bottom 2 photo's they show a wire going up to the Aerial on the front right pole...

Now look at the lower above shot, it shows a wire going up the pole. So I wonder if the radio set is in fact behind the driver in the centre of the car.

Check out that stowage! And we thought Black dog overloaded their 222...

P.

idea than guessing math. I measured the antenae drawings in Bradfords book and the width is 6 feet and the length is 8 feet nine inches, when in the erect position it was 7 feet 6 inches from the ground.

Is that for the 222 series or the 250/3?

P.

the armored car 223

behind the side door. I am not sure the radios here are on the back wall, as there was an opening to the engine compartment for cooling air (in the '222/223). On the back wall in the two pix shown (the only two interior photos I've seen) is a work table. Layouts of other German radio cars and trucks show different, and not always really efficient placement of the equipment. Sometimes the radios just had to be placed where they would fit inside the vehicle. Here I think the radios may in fact be on the far wall, as the case shown is similar to some radio equipment I've seen in photos. I do not think there is enough room for all the radios found in the GREIF, but sometimes the radios were duplicated, so a single installation would fit. The second soldier in one of the pix is sitting on the left side, so the radios wouldn't be there. Remember that these light armored cars were tiny inside, with very narrow floors. The driver sits in the center of the front floor and there is only a few feet of clear floor behind him. Besides the driver, the crew had a vehicle commander and two radio operators. I would GUESS the commander sat by one of the radio operators at the rear table, with the remaining radio operator sitting behind the driver. I'd love to see a loading diagram for these suckers.....

According to the panzer tracts excerpt Ken sent me the 261 had the following radios :

kl.pz.fu.Tr.d with Fu 10 SE 30 & Fu.Spr.Ger."a" (Fu 12 SE 80)

Knowing how big they were might help with how they were positioned.

P.

It could easily have fit along either side wall behind the driver's doors, and possibly along the rear wall, though that still would be crowded, especially since there were two radio operators.

there were two radio sets in the SdKfz 261, using different frequencies. The bizarre thing though is that though the Fu Spr Ger "a" required only the 1.4 meter rod antenna, all the other sets were intended to be used with the 8 meter crank-extended mast with the star antenna.The SdKfz 261 did not use the extendable mast antenna. In the later '261s, the Fu 10 was replaced by the Fu 12, which is why Fu 12 appeared in parentheses in the PanzerTracts data. Note that the only difference between these radios was the sender (transmitter). The receivers were the same (Torn.E. b). In some installations, two different radio sets did share components, such as the transmitter. The "kl. Pz. fu. Trp d" was also called Fu 22, which was very similar to the earlier Fu 10, using an improved transmitter of the same power. It gets complicated..... Still no idea how they arranged the sets inside or just where everyone sat.

The first picture of the 261 in Africa shows it with an extended star mast antenna as well as its square antenna.




Could those rods stored down the rear of the cars be the mast antenna stored?

Peter

try again..



P.

1.4-2 meter standard rod antenna. The extendable mast was several inches in diameter, as the sections telescoped inside one another, and the cables and antena leads had to fir in there also.

Peering into the stygian blackness of the two DAK interior pix, I see now that the radios are on the back wall. They may not be both the sets, but one of them is back there; you can see the microphone cables leading from the front panel. I'll try to see if I can find anything. Be back in about a week.....

Hi All
Please excuss the long winded reply. Its a little difficult to describe with out posting/illustrating photos.

Looking at the 2nd and 3rd photos. It shows the opened crew hatches. Note the locking bars that hold the hatch in the upright open position are on the left hand side as looking at the photo.

Note; this shows in the 3rd photo as a Y ( or a straight bar with a V attachment at the top)shaped bar fitted to the edge on the inside of the hatch

In the Ryton book Panzerspahwagen pages 41/66/67. Photos of Sdkfz 261.

It show the hatches open and the opening/locking bars fitted to the REAR part of the hatch.

If correct that means the photos 2 & 3 show us looking at the vehicle with the rear to the left and front to the right. The radio would then be fitted behind the driver as fitted in the sdkfz 223.


As always I could be wrong, but hope it helps.

Regards
andrew

PS Bruce did you received my email of august 19th ?

Excellent call, Andrew. Note on one of the photos at the upper edge, you can see the radio lead to the antenna, which fed into the forward support strut on the left side of the vehicle. I have been looking at this crate backwards. That does answer a lot of questions. I'd still love to see the loading plan for this thing, but now it's possible to fit the crew into place. I wonder if the crew of this particular beast got Black Dog to do the stowage for their vehicle.....

Yes, Andrew, I did get your email, and everything is fine. I understand your decision. I've talked with Rob Erwin and Tim Perry, and I am leaning toward outsourcing the casting. That would allow me to run the selling, packing, etc. and still have time for a life. I have looked at doing quick-time things that come up, and I might have to cast those myself due to the time constraints, but we'll see. I have some great ideas, if I can get the research done. I got many pix of a lot of subjects and realized not one had any measurements! So, if I can find measurements on the web or in a book, I'm good to go. Thank you for your interest.