I've been cogitating on this joke diorama for a coupla years and I've finally got all the pieces together. Probably take me all of Winter to get it done, but it should be fun.
Gotta convert a Furman Tiger II to a Henschell turret, as I'm gonna use tha Porsche turret for Dr. Porsche's Tiger II on Bandai's Elefant chassis (another project)....now where waz I.

Scenario: Gen. Patton and his driver round a bldg. corner and run slam into a Tiger II reloading ammo.......Georgie jumps up, points to tha rear and screams at his driver..."RETREAT!!!" Driver slams Jeep's tranny into reverse and smokes those rear tires.... toying with tha idea of painting tha seat of Georgie's cavalry pants brown and running down tha backside of his laigs...Oh yeah, Georgie has his pearl handled revolver in his left hand, mighty small peashooter up agin' an 88mm Tank Killer gun....would make Swiss Cheese outa that Jeep.

Then a Jagdtiger II would be a BIGGER GUN, but then I'd need 2 Tiger II kits (to make tha chassis longer) and where in tha world would I find a 12.5 cm Gun.....hmmmm

So what do yall think of this diorama scenario, eh?

have screamed retreat or had brown stains running down his britches........other than that carry on

He also never would have carried a pearl handled revolver. (They were ivory.) Hell, he probably would have captured the crew and their tank!

In 1916 1st Lieutenant (his rank at the time IIRC) George Patton drove into a small town in northern Mexico while participating in the Punitive Expedition being led by Black Jack Pershing on a scouting mission. Walking into the Cantina, he bumped into a band of Villistas, bristling with guns and blood up on Tequila. He single handedly gunned down a top Villa commander and two of his body guards with a Colt .45 revolver in an actual throw down, jerk leather gunfight. George dropped one from the back oh his horse as he ran by. Even as a General, George Patton always carried two loaded .45 pistols in open top holsters and was a dead shot. If history is any indication, out in the open that tank crew would have been in deep trouble if they did not surrender without a fight.

Konrad

... especially the brown pants part. I think that diorama would dishonor the memory of Gen. Patton.

Also sounds like someone has a quasi Nazi armor fetish.

Why not show any number of Shermans driving past the blown hulk of a Tiger (II or otherwise)?

That really did happen, on numerous occasions.

I'm paraphrasing, but a German tank commander once said: "Our tanks could handle 3-4 Shermans at a time. However, the Americans seemed to always have that fifth one ... and a sixth one ... and a seventh ..."

I'm not sating you shouldn't build it. But I am saying I don't like the idea as it was stated.

I agree with Jonathan in all respects, and sometimes wonder what in God's name spawns these silly ideas.
Patton was never one of my favourites, but this is just plain poor taste.

George Bradford

According to Andy Rooney, he did not much care about wasting his own men's lives with his mistakes...

Andy also despised him utterly, which speaks volumes to me, and this also corresponds to a lot of creepy speeches and undignified quotes from Patton himself...

Patton also wasted four months on the Rhine, getting absolutely no results, while Monty, in a better offensive position, begged Eseinhower for months for the oil ressources to take Berlin immediately and ahead of the Russians... "I'm not going to have the British Army walk into Berlin on an election year!" Eseinhower replied... (Something so parochial I can scarcely believe it myself, but apparently true nonetheless...)

So electoral considerations proved strategically decisive while Europe was being subjugated to Communist rule, and Patton got what he wanted for months on end until it all ended, to everyone's disbelief, with a massive German attack!

At the start of all this, in September, Montgomery, in desperation, tried to circumvent Eseinhower's refusal by using mostly his own limited means, resulting in the disaster of "Market Garden".

Also, more directly relevant to us, and more embarrassing to his proponents, Patton was not a supporter of bigger guns for the Sherman, and did nothing to hasten the introduction of "unnecessary" larger tanks like the Pershing... "We just love it when those King Tigers come on the field" is one of the many ridiculous quotes attributed to him...

Anyway, read some of his speeches, I doubt they will make you a fan of him...

Gaston

when this was a MODELING forum

So about the Ottawa Sens and their trouble with Heatley........

The question was what do I/we think of the diorama idea.

For myself, not much. But then, I don't particularly like Banksie, but my fair city has been plagued with hundreds of thousands of Banksie fans queueing for hours and hours to see 'dioramas' of live sausages and security guards riding wooden horses. So what do I know about art? Jack, apparently....

Tim

www.fighting48th.com

was that he knew the Russians were going to be given the area of Germany east of the Elbe, and he saw no reason to expend American or British lives taking territory that would go to the Russians after the war.

Robert Heinlein said, "Those that ignore history have neither a past nor a present." (to which I would add....) nor will they ever enjoy a future of their own.

One must remember, Gen. Patton was not a Soldier's General, Gen. Patton's sole interest was only in advancing his career at Command in Battle. When one looks at Gen. Patton's military career, soldiers were just pieces on the Chessboard, expendable Pawns.

One must also remember that Gen. Patton saw himself as a Roman Consul-General reincarnate ala the Caesarian mold, and in fact he was quoted as actually believing in this himself.

Gen. Patton ( I do Honor his rank, grew up as an Officer's brat in the USAF) spent a lot more American lives than most Generals, despite his military cunning.

My diorama is a satirical impression of Leading in the Front, one too many times.....a .45 cal. vs. a 8.8cm tank gun......who wins that gunfight?

Since there are other figures in Tamiya's famous generals set, why not have a showdown between Patton and Montgomery? Or Have Eisenhower having lunch with a 1/48 scale Kay Summersby?

I'd like to see Mark Clark waving to the cheering Italian crowds from his Jeep, while a squad of stormtroopers scurry across the road behind him, unnoticed.....

Tim

www.fighting48th.com

Hi:

I understand your attempt at satire, but I think the point is that Patton would have fought. He might have lost, but everything in Patton's record indicates he would have gone down fighting (assuming he lost - as was pointed out, given the right circumstances, he could have killed/taken prisoner the Tiger crew, thereby earning himself a nice war prize). Having Patton yell "retreat" with a stain in his pants seems quite disrespectful and likely at odds with Patton's personality. Now, his driver could certainly be throwing the jeep into reverse and have a stain in his pants, but Patton himself would likely be blazing away with his ivory-handled pistols.

I admit that I am not somebody who is overawed by the Germans in WWII, so I would be more likely to make a diorama like this with Patton actually winning. By the way, your scenario sounds a bit like that which led to the death of General Maurice Rose near the end of the war.

Cheers,

Scott

Scott Taylor
Thachweave Products
http://thachweave.tripod.com

I think the allocation of German territories east of the Elbe was decided during the Yalta conference, February 4-15 1945, so well after the events of the Fall of '44.

I agree a diorama trying to portray Patton in the way suggested is not representative, regardless of what would have happened...

But it is a fact he did not support better tanks despite the available information, and was considered wasteful of his men's lives. I also think he contributed indirectly to letting half of Europe fall under Communist rule for 40 years, something Montgomery desperately tried to avoid. (The Sherman's tendency to sink and drag its belly in soft ground didn't help either...)

It really was a race to Berlin, and I seriously doubt the Western allies were "holding back" to accomodate the Soviets...

Eisenhower's "interesting" quote came from an excellent show on the History Channel, which abundantly demonstrated, much to my surprise, that the expectation of the war ending by Christmas '44 was far from unrealistic, and that the extension of the war into 1945 was the results of a series of disastrous mistakes by the Western Allies, with consequences that are being keenly felt to this day...

Until that show, I was pretty much under the impression that, a few minor bumps excepted, everything had gone remarkably well for Ambrose's "Great Generation"...

Gaston

Many, many years ago...as in my 2nd decade,somewhere from 13 yrs. and older on into my 30s. My Dad retired from the USAF in 1962 and because of his last job as a pilot of a Martin modified Canberra RB57D in Operation Black Knight, his Security Clearance lasted well over ten years, after Retirement. Anyway that is the background of how I met some U.S. Army Vets who served under Gen. Patton through my Dad out on MacDill AFB in Tampa, Flawduh. These Vets I met talked "off the record" about Gen. Patton and they hated Gen. Patton as their CO. They said that Gen. Patton never led from the front when the lead Battalion was heading into unknown territory, they said he always led from behind the 2nd Battalion...irregardless of what the Press said. These Vets said that Gen. Patton "controlled" what was written about him from the combat fronts...and that most of it was just "hype." Made to make him look good. These Vets said, the Military controlled what was written in WW2. They still do.

Another "off the record" conversation was that they believed that some of the guys from Gen. Patton's Army had something to do with the accident that broke Gen. Patton's neck. That is just what they believed, but they also said if they had to speak on the record...."it was just an unfortunate accident." These guys would come out to my Dad's place, raised Palomino Appaloosas and drink cases of beer, course I'd just hang out and sneak a brewski every now and then....and listen intently as most of these guys were in Intelligence - Military, CIA,...Spooks,,,,neat stories.

Anyways, just some of my memories from growing up military, oh BTW, my Dad's younger brother Uncle Dick was a West Point grad...went into the Army Corps of Engineers. Uncle Jim landed in Normandy D+2, but he would never talk about his part in that action....he was Infantry. My Dad was an Ace in Guadalcanal 42-43, 5 Confirmed, 3 Probables .....then he developed Kidney Stones and they brought him back as a "War Hero" and had him flying unloaded guns in P-47s over Washington, DC - after he crashed Head-on into a Zeke over Guadal, took out a CPO, 18 kills Ace. Dad flew a Warhawk P40-F... just some of my memories...

Your dad sounds like a wonderful guy. I remember my dads friends reminiscing about their service, which was always fascinating. As a historian and a writer, dad had lots of interesting projects, including acting as one of the technical advisors on "Patton" at Twentieth Century Fox when I was a kid. I would be careful with the amount of weight you give to current interpretations of General Patton, as in the politically correct world we live in today his language and attitudes can seem far beyond the pale. Even for his day he was a bit of a polemicist, and loved to tweak the nose of his audience. On the other hand his military successes speak for themselves, and like him or not he was a successful general with a documented record of personal courage. As you can see from this thread there is still some heat in any discussion of his (or any generals) leadership. Boiling all this down to the diorama idea, it seems to me that it may get some to laugh, but some others may not react so well. The humor concept is great - what about something at the expense of the Germans?

Konrad

I also build in Braille Scale, 1/72nd and this dio is called "Gunfight at Breakfast (or High Noon)." Picture this....coming in at treetop level guns blazing either a B-25, B-26 or an A-26 Ground attack aeroplane bits and pieces coming offn tha plane ....but one German artillery gun blowing up, a Quad anti-air firing but getting all shot up.....and down front and center...tha Huns caught with their pants down, butts hanging over a tree limb at tha country latrine,,,,,,might even include a P-51 D in tha 6 o'clock position blasting away, tha Huns ducking and running for any kind of cover (kinda reminds me of Kelly's Heroes and those guys hiding next to tha Outhouse that took a mortor round) ..... so much for a peaceful morning, hehehe

A head-on collision between two fighters...closing speed of what? 400, maybe 500 mph? Guy walks away from that with nothing worse than kidney stones should buy a lottery ticket every day.

To wit, as was told to me by my Dad: Dad was not supposed to be flying CAP that day, but the Flight Leader had a toothache and Dad was asked to take the CAP mission. Now on that day, their CAP Patrol Area was to the West side of Guadal as the Nips rarely came down that way...they usually came down the Slot. So...they were stooging around at 30,000 feet with my Dad showing/ instructing the newbies ( 3 who were on their 1st mission) what they could and could not do vs. any Japanese Fighter. The P40-F used a license built Packard/Merlin V-12 which gave our guys a slight altitude advantage...so the mission profile in a dogfight was to get into a dive, flame a Zeke, pass thru then go into a climb back to altitude, Immelman and repeat the manoever.

Anyways, this is what Dad said, he looked North, saw a gaggle of Japanese (said that he never saw the them fly in formation), estimated tha force at over 30 aircraft, he only had 4 planes - his mission was to hold 'em up until those on the ground and the 2 other CAP patrol could vector in. He gave the Heading, told his Flight, "we're in it now boys," Gave a Tallyho and rolled into the fight. 1st pass he flamed a Zeke, passed thru climbed for altitude Immeled and began his 2nd pass.....mahaged a quik look around and realized that he was the only airplane with White Stars on his wings....started blasting away.... then realized that he was way too close, no time to duck, WHAMMM saw his prop chew threw the Zeke's cockpit , his canopy exploded and then he realized he was on fire...realized he had a mouthful of canopy, started spitting, then realized he had to abandon ship....only way out was to invert, then he fell out and his right knee caught on one of his elevators - dislocated his knee. He popped his chute, hit himself with a morphine syringe as the pain was getting to him. And he began to worry as the Japanese had a habit of shooting our guys while they were hanging from their chutes.....but Dad was burnt black down to his shoulders...so he figures that they couldn't tell if he was an American or an enemy. Extent of injuries, burned any part of his face that wasn't covered, really burnt off the outer layer of skin on both forearms. His nickname in Guadal was "Head-on Hank" - was how he got his 5 kills....but he never really intended to actually take out a Zeke this way. I have some pics, I'll see ifn I can load them here for yall. Oh the closing speed....Dad figures he was in -oh darn, what did they call it, darn old 60 years worth of stuff in my mind...Nuts to tha wall...well over 360 mph plus the Zeke's speed.....musta been one Hell of an impact!!

Dad back at Guadalcanal

Dad's P40-F

Dad with Gen. Kenney at the Cleveland Air Races/ Show....



and this is my Dad's last ride in the USAF, now stationed in Houston in NASA and don't look anything like it did back in 1959-62.


and this is a 1/72 model of my Dad's ride I built back in 1988 while recovering from my 1st hip surgery - the wings and engine nacelles are balsa...


coupla close-ups for yall...


and

four against thirty...Your dad's cojones (can you say that here?)----- must've been the size of grapefruits.

Actually, according to my Dad, it was more like 30 plus to one. The rookies said they never saw the Japanese and continued on CAP (headed away from the fight). They said they never heard my Dad's radio call and assumed that he was returning to base to get his radio fixed, but the other 2 CAP Patrols heard him as well as the 2 Fighter Strips on Guadal. According to my Dad, those rookies were grounded and shipped out ASAP...probably ended up in the worst armpit of the whole wide world. BTW my Dad gradded from Luke Field, Class 42-G...which meant 1942 and Dad never had a College Degree, but due to his abilities, intelligence and guts....started in the Pennsylvania National Guard, Cavalry - 1939...and Retired as a Lt. Col after 22 years, 13 years of which I grew up in. I was born in a civilian hospital in Omaha, Nebraska in 1949. Dad was the 1st Flying Safety Officer in Uncle Curtis' SAC/USAF...ah that is Gen. "Bomb 'em back to tha STONE AGE" Curtis LeMay. Man that guy smoked stinky ceegars.

Interesting story and cool pics!

And not that I give a darn about terms such as "Nips" and "Japs," but this is a board with a pretty big international following, including a Japanese or two.

Isamu

I was just using my Dad's words, since he was in that fight and I reckon he had that right. But I should also point out that he received an several Awards from Chiang Kai Scheck when he was TDY in Taiwan (1957) teaching Taiwanese Air Force pilots how to fly spy planes over China. As a matter of fact, Dad was one of the few American pilots who flew over China, including Chunking. You might find this amusing, my Dad sure did. In the mid 80's he leased a 3 Diamonds car ( a Mitsubishi), used to say...."I used to get paid to shoot Mitsubishis out of the sky."

I figured as much and that's why I said I don't give a darn. But, you know how some people are....

Love the story about the "Three Diamonds" car.

Isamu