Talking to my mail order supplier in auckland which is about 600 miles from my home has informed me that the above brand is no longer availble.Which is aright pain as i haven't been able to get any of their t/34 's or enough m4,s to keep my chopping habit in order .Does anyone have any idea what's goin down .cheer,s wayne

I don't know if they are OOP, but HLJ in Japan has some on sale.

http://www.hlj.com/scripts/hljsalepage2/?Count=20&word2=&genre2=Mil&series2=All&type2=All&scale2=All&maker2=All&DisplayMode=images&randstr=a45y4yy1

Just scroll down the page.

Cheers

Hi All;

To my mind they just got tired of people like us griping about their poor
showing of their Sherman line. Let's see how critical we can be about the
NEXT injection armour manufacturer who enters TOTS.

GB

But there was also the excitement over their T-34 and KV range. I wonder if there was something more to their decision.

... there was something more. They simply did not sell enough to continue. Companies are formed for one purpose only, to make money for their owners or stockholders. If they don't sell a product, they will stop making it and try something else, or quit.
Excitement! Well, maybe here on this site but in the modelling world in general, likely not much.
How many regular contributors does this site include? Maybe 30, with at least that many lurkers? Hardly enough to support any company, especially if even this number doesn't step up and buy the product. Because we are enthusiasts, we tend to think our views are given some sort of special influence. I don't think that's the case. My gut feeling is that any company would rather sell 100 kits to unknown customers than get an excited letter from an enthusiast.
Smaller aftermarket producers such as myself are somewhat different. We tend to do this because we are interested in the subject and are not as profit-driven. We can and are influenced by enthusiast groups, because our total sales numbers are so small and we are always seeking niche markets.

I purchased more than a dozen Hobby Boss kits but I am just one person. Does this mean that the kits sitting on the shelf in hobby shops and available online will soon be collector's items?

Hobby Boss covers a lot of modeling arenas for such a new brand, and 1/48th armor was for them but one very small pot on the fire among many... In 1/48th armor they were basically alone up against Tamiya, and they could only take sales away from Tamiya by being perceived as of superior quality to them. For the quality reflection on the rest of their range, the word-of-mouth of soundly beating Tamiya (at the very low cost of adapting well-done Trumpeteer 1/35th-1/16 research) could by itself be worth the cost... (Hence the overkill of the T-34 interiors, and the unnecessary innovation of the moulded-in photo-etch grille: They seemed to aim at a significant publicity "coup"...)

This could explain the superior-to-Tamiya quality reflected in HB's Russian tanks, but they unfortunately overestimated the popularity of these subjects... (I don't think even Tamiya's 1/48th Russian tanks sold well, as they are themselves often on sale at Squadron even compared to all the other Tamiya 1/48th vehicle subjects)

When the Shermans started to bring them a bad noises, they quickly gave up on 1/48th armor (over two years ago), maybe just to avoid the tainted reputation by association. These "image" type of things can be critical to large ventures that are much larger than our scale... If on top of the market being small they get bad-mouthed, then they really need to get out of it...

The funny thing is, I have two Hobby Boss 76mm M4A1s, and with after-market tracks, gun barrel and modified hull side angles, I would pick these HB kits any day over any Sherman Tamiya has done...

This reminds me of the Perth Military Modeler 1/48th reviews, which I always found extremely useful, but then they suddenly stopped... Not enough interest, I thought...

But then, much later, I came across an old thread on ML, where the reviewer of PMMS justifiably exploded at getting some silly nit-picking criticism of his reviews. He said he did these for free at great personal effort, and he didn't see why he should keep on going with the kind of feedback he was getting...

Well I haven't seen any 1/48th armor reviews from him since...

As with the Shermans, if our criticism is not balanced, we will get what we deserve...

Gaston

I just got in the mail today the Aber PE lubricant boxes and round fuel tank holders for my KVs. I contacted Bill at WWII productions to inquire about resin lightweight tracks for the KV ( the fruilmodel ones are too expensive for me). He said he was working on them. If HB 1/48 kits are becoming scarce, get them while you can. Don't forget the AM, too. Its funny, I was never interested in Russian tanks until the KV came out. Now, that is what I am most interested in and I can't wait for the UM Models light tanks. I prefer the HB KV over the Tamiya one because of the better detail, separate fenders and separate engine access hatch

Which is drastically crushed on the Tamiya....

While on the glacis subject, you said awhile back that there was something wrong with the HB glacis for many of HB's KV kits regarding the depiction of the added front armor, but that HB's captured German KV-1 was OK.

I'm building a captured German KV-2, and I'm very anxious to understand what it is that you are referring to...

The only other flaw I was aware of on the HBs, was the full-width fenders which were usually not at full track width, but about 4-5 inch shy, though at least one late KV-2 photo(late multi-facet KV-2 turret) shows a full track width just like Hobby Boss... Note that the fender width drastically affects the size of the large fender-mounted boxes...

Also the Tamiya tracks have bigger track hinges, and so I will be using them remorselessly...

Is the German captured KV-2 glacis OK as is? Which HB variants are OK in the glacis straight from the box?

Gaston

Well bruce there is the new market ,if we cant get them then we,ll needed your one,s even more.Oh and gaston if hobbyboss had done the sherman,s right in the frist place then we would have brought more ,but the need to by a replacement hull as well as akit was apain greatfor after market manufactors but hard on my pocket. have fun guy,s wayne

Have HB a website or any way to contact them?...

Many thanks!

Roberto Flores
cartoonist & illustrator
http://www.robertoflores.com

The KV-2 did not have the glacis or hull applique armour added so it is no problem. Also The HB kits come with different fender widths: The early-production ones have the wide fenders and the late-production ones (cast turrets, simplified welded turret) have the narrower fender. Use the wide fenders that came with the kit. The storage boxes fit both fenders and there are pics of late production vehicles with these storage boxes on them. The engine access hatch for the HB KV-2 kit has the indent at the top. I can't find any pictures of KV-2s with this kind of hatch. All the pics show a smooth domed access hatch. I trimmed the edge and filled in the indent with putty when I worked on mine.

I used the Tamiya KV-2 turret on a HB KV-1 hull to make my late-production KV-2. Pictures of the famous captures KV-2 with German cupola show that it has the mantlet manufactured in 1940. The mantlet of the HB kit is the spring 1941 mantlet, as it is on the Tamiya kit.

Bill at WWII productions told me he will work on the KV-1 lightweight track this weekend. These can be used on the HB cast turret (both kinds)and simplified welded turret kits.

Oh yes, gaston, while we are on the subject, I have used the Tamiya glacis applique armour on a HB kit. I see no difference in dimension between the two.

Hello Marlowe,

Where did you get confomation for the early wide fender issue compared with the later narrow fenders? Do you have any photos?

JohnO

After becoming besotted with the KV-1, I acquired 7 of the HB KV-1s. In support of that I purchased some research material: Stalin's giants, the two tankograd publications, KV-1 early variants and KV-1 late variants, and the Polsih language WP publications vols I/II and vol. III (fortunately with English subtitles for the pictures). If I could read Polish I would be an expert on KV production. I can't answer the question about the narrow fenders since I don't know when they were introduced or whether the differences in fender width were the result of different suppliers. A simple rule-of-thumb seems to be the early variants had the wider fender and the later ones, say from Oct. 1941 onward had the narrower ones. The early variant KVs from HB have the wider fenders with the three large storage boxes. The ligthweight cast turret, heavy cast turret and simplified welded turret kits have the narrow fenders with the new longer, thin storage box. Pictures show some late model KVs with both types of boxes.

Bill at WWII Productions (Australia) has promised to do the lightweight tracks for the later model KVs and so I hope I am not the only one to purchase a set. I've asked him to sell them through Track48.

Another mystery conerning the KV-1 and 2 is the shape of the grills over the side engine vents. There seems to be no rhyme or reason as to which model or variant has the tapered ones or the semi-circled ones.

What would be really nice is a good set of T34 tracks. The ones that come with the Tamiya kits have those huge sink holes in them. Any thoughts on anyone/anywhere one could procure a set??

I too am a BIG KV fan ever since the HB kits came out...

The full-width fenders seemed very rare to me, but I will look into the issue.

The full domed hatch is extremely useful info....

Are you saying the Tamiya KV-2 mantlet is better than the HB for the German captured KV-2?

The upper glacis makes the Tamiya hull unuseable in my opinion, and Tamiya's KV-1 turret is also very poor in overall shape (far too much rear overhang if I remember correctly). The Tamiya KV-2 turret is excellent but almost identical to the HB anyway...

This upper glacis issue is the one reason I would never use the Tamiya KV hull...

Compare the depth of the upper glacis in these two photos:







Thanks for all the info!

Gaston

Neither the Tamiya or HB KV-2 turrets can be used for the famous captured one. Both companies' kits have the 1941 mantlet. Note that the mantlet on the cpatured version with the cupola does not have the cuts in the side (one on the right, two on the left) for the bolts. The 1941 mantlets had these cuts for the bolts.

Look at the pics here and note the mantlet.

http://beute.narod.ru/Beutepanzer/su/kv/kv-2/kv-2.htm:


Compare it to the mantlets in the HB and Tamiya KV-2 kits. (note that HB also makes an early-war pre-production KV-2 kit)


KV-1
Comparing both turrets visually and holding them up a side-by-side, etc. the Tamiya Kv-1 turret and HB are as as close to identical as it can get. Having "too much" overhang is the look you want in a KV-1 model 1940 turret. Keep mind that you have to note which kind of turret you are looking at when viewing photos. The reinforced welded turret of later 1941 extended the sides of the turret to cover the turret race and so they look like they have a short rear overhang. However, this turret is not available to us in 1/48.

I did a quick measure of both glacis plates and found no discernible difference

The HB kits have the episcope covers with screws and so are more accurate than Tamiya which have the flange but no holes for the screws. I used HB episcope covers for my KV-2.

had some great kits, and some not so great kits. The 1/48 LCM-3 landing craft had a number of errors too, but as Marlowe says, it was poor sales that made them go away. I sincerely doubt any criticism found on the web changed their minds. And for what it's worth, they brought on their own troubles with the Shermans themselves. China has Shermans they captured from the Nationalists in the civil war, and from the US and South Korea during the "police action." They had no excuse for making so many mistakes, and the maddening thing is, they'd get something right in one kit and wrong in all the others.

To some extent, HB was a victim of the slow growth of 1/48 armor modeling, and they were not willing to give the scale more time. Please note that the Chinese (mainland China) are in this only for the money, and they are not as wedded to quality as the Japanese. If they make a mistake and botch an order, they still demand to be paid; fixing the mistake will cost you extra. And there are plenty of US and European manufacturers in a variety of disciplines who will confirm this. At least so far, we haven't caught them cutting the styrene with melamine....

If Hobby Boss had done the research, the Shermans would have established them as the BEST manufacturer of 1/48 armor kits in terms of fidelity and accuracy. And if sales hadn't met their expectations, they would have bugged out anyway. That might have made it even worse to lose them.

Italeri is going to release four new kits in 2010, and three are completely new; they introduce lines that are not currently available in plastic. Only the Opel Blitz fuel tanker is based on an existing kit, and it will have the Einheits cab. The SdKfz 234/2 Puma armored car gives us four new vehicles, with the inevitable aftermarket conversions, or Italeri doing the whole '234 series as they did in 1/35.

As for Phoenix48, any new stuff will be priced at a reasonable level. It is a pain to have to buy a correction set, but then this is almost expected in 1/35 anyway. We have holes in our kit choices of subject, but so do the 1/35 folks, even with hundreds of kits available. The point is, if the correction stuff is not too pricey, a flawed kit is still affordable. That's the way to go. We ain't dead yet, even if the Wizard sleeps.....

Well, if HobbyBoss had got their family of M4s essentially right, I for one would have bought at least a couple of dozen, probably more, even if I left out the Easy 8 versions (no Brit ones, you see). They would have provided maybe 3/4s of the work for my 'dream' Commonwealth collection of AFVs. Now multiply that up for all the US Army fans, the Marines fans, the Poles, the Czechs, the French, even the Beute fans who would have put crosses all over them, I reckon they could have sold several thousand more kits than they did. And that might have made the difference.

As it is, I can't understand why Tamiya haven't rung the changes with their cast M4 hull, just two or three more hull variants, maybe with a different style of track in each (shoots himself in foot with that one...) and again, I'd be buying then in 3's and 6's.

Don't tell me I'm the only one!

Tim

www.fighting48th.com

Tim

You are not the only one. I have four of the HB Shermans in the stash.Hopefully I can get a few more before(if) they are no longer made.

Chad

Yes tim your so right all they need to do is acouple of upper hull's and we'd all be happy .Why can they not take aleaf out of dragon's book and do all the variants ,they must be hammering tamiya in the 35th stakes at the moment,but i'll take any thing new at that is not modern [that will make me unpopular] have fun guy,s wayne

Sorry Marlowe, what I meant by the "upper glacis" was the DRIVER's VISOR plate...

HB's has a space under the center slit visor's "frame": Tamiya doesn't, though pictures do not seem back HB on this small minor issue! Still, the real OVERALL driver's visor hull plate was more tall (or narrower) just like the HB. The applique armor part may muddle the issue, but the Tamiya front hull looks nothing like the real KV front hull view, in my opinion...

NONE of the 1/48th KV-1 turrets I know of, either HB or Tamiya (but Bandai unknown!), look to me like the real thing, but maybe ONLY because of the gun on the HB cast turret. This is why I only recommend and build the HB KV-2.

Amazingly enough, we have THREE different 1/48th KV-2 turrets, two HB and one Tamiya, and ALL are excellent in overall shape and gun tube proportions!

For the problem of the KV-1's welded-turret rear overhang, the issue could be one of the overall height of the turret... If the Tamiya/HB height is too short, it could cause the overhang to look "slim" and "long"... See the point here:







As I remembered it, neither Hobby Boss or Tamiya offered a good 1/48th KV-1 welded turret, even to the point of including the HB's late cast turret, for which I vaguely remember the 76mm gun lenght or slimness looking, in this latter case, very odd. This may be variable depending on the depth of the mantlet type surrounding it... In any case I only kept the German-captured cast-turret KV-1, because in my mind the well-done Pak 40 substitute gun could act as a fix for this gun problem...

All the KV-2 turrets are really flawless, and I cannot recommend enough Hauler's 152mm resin gun tube for them: It has the rifling moulded in! The best $5 I ever invested in resin, hands-down...

Gaston

Gaston, check here:
http://beute.narod.ru/Beutepanzer/su/kv/kv-1/kv-1ab/kv-1_early7.htm


This will give you an idea of how difficult it can be using pictures to make judgements. The first two pictures are of the rare welded turret with reinforced rear machine gun mount. This turret differs from the other welded turret but you would not be able to tell which kind of turret you are viewing unless you could see the rear. The third pivture is of the "simplified" welded turret, which was a later production than the "reinforced" welded turret. Both have the "shorter" overhang because the turret sides are extended back to cover the turret ring.

Gaston, keep in mind that different 76mm guns were used on the KVs. Model 1939 had the 76mm -11 gun, the Model 1940 had the 76mmF-32 and the later welded and cast turrets had the 76mm ZIS-5 guns. Kepp that in mind when looking at gun profiles.

When you say "both", do you mean both "reinforced" turrets referred to in the very same sentence? Or does "both" include the tanks in the first two pictures? (I think not, and the first two pictures do indeed seem to show a very long turret rear overhang, like the Tamiya: point taken)

What about the photo of the shot-up tank I provided? Is it not a non-reinforced turret? In that case is the apparently much-reduced rear turret overhang a photo distortion?

Again, the point is taken about the different 76mm gun types, but the more exposed cast turret guns are all presumably similar later 76mm guns, and the Hobby Boss guns are a bit skinny-looking to my eyes, but perhaps metal after-market guns can offer help...

You do see the point about the driver visor plate? It would be extremely difficult, near-impossible in fact, to correct this major Tamiya hull error...


Gaston

By both I mean the two late production turrets, the reinforced turret and the "lightweight" turret have shorter overhangs becahse the turret sides are extended to cover the turret race. The "lightweight" welded turret a "notch in the rear overhang at the sides. This can be seen in the third picture. the fourth pciture is unusual as foliagege obscures the rear of the turret.

Look at this picture: Note how the overhang reaches to just about the midway point of the domed engine access hatch. The Tamiya turret matches this.

...But I have to say in all my years of looking at KVs, I have never seen a photo of a KV-1 welded turret with the Tamiya gun-mantlet combination: Either the mantlet is shorter with a much longer-looking late gun, or the mantlet is longer with a much shorter-looking gun. I have to conclude Tamiya's gun-mantlet combination seems very atypical, and makes the kit look very unfamiliar...

Because of the variety of gun mantlet appearances on cast turret, I would have to revise my impression the HB gun was too skinny. In any case the HB cast turret did not look a terribly good match to the real thing: I look at mine again to refresh my memory...

I did note that applying the applique armor to the Tamiya kit driver's visor plate sort of "hides" the ugly shortfall in height appearance of that plate, so the Tamiya kit should definitely never be built without that hull applique armor... That being said, it's such a major unfixable flaw that I don't see any reason why the Hobby Boss should not be used instead, unless the applique armor is not offered by HB...

Gaston

I've checked and it does look OK against pictures. The gun remains to be checked, as all I have is the German pak 40-equipped version.

I still have yet to see a picture of the Tamiya KV-1 mantlet/gun combination anywhere...

Gaston

Gaston, these pics should help"

First pic: Model 1939 with L-11 gun



2nd pic: Model 1940 with F-32 gun and mantlet: this is a captured "up-armoured" or "screened" vehicle used by the Finns. So ignore the modifications the Finns made. Note the mantlet and gun. This is the kind you get with Tamiya and the two HB kits: "small turret" tank and "small turret" tank with extra armour.




3rd pic: model 1941, cast turret with ZiS gun. Note how the barrel tapers: This angle does note show the new mantlet used with the Zis 76mm gun but this angle gives you a good impression of how thin the barrel can look



Here is the same tank showing the mantlet: Note the new extended applique armour on the driver's glacis, extending up past the top of the episcope cover.

...Since I don't have one to compare, even in photo, so it could be quite right...

However, if the Tamiya barrel is supposed to be identical to the tank in your photo(seen here), then I would think there is definitely something wrong with the Tamiya gun barrel:



/750px-


Gaston

I think there is no way these could be in agreement...

Gaston