I know that Im a lucky man, but recently, due to Zoes job loss and a few other things going on in my life, its become easy to forget at times just how lucky I really am., friends, family, etc.

I received the following letter from my friends daughter, Shelly. Ive known Shelly since she was still in the womb, and shes like the daughter I never had. Ive watched her daughter, Mckenzie (Kenzie) grow up too, though mostly in pictures as they live in the Twin Cities. And at the age of 11, she shouldnt have to learn the lesson that has unfolded before her eyes these last few months. Heres the email I receved today, Easter Sunday:

Hello everyone, and Happy Easter.

I email you all today with sad news and a heavy heart, Alexandria lost her battle and joined Jesus in Heaven this morning at about 10 am. They knew for a day or two that this was coming as she coded many times. Jessica and Jeff (Alexandria's parents) and Alexandria were all cuddled up together, and she was surrounded by other family members as well. I know people say that it's good that she is no longer in pain and I am so glad about that, but I guess we are just being selfish right now as we wanted more time with her here. Though I can imagine her in heaven, swimming of course, and playing with the animals, I bet she's found Ellie and they are playing together.

I have not spoken to Jessica yet, I spoke to Julie, Jessica's mom this morning at about 8am, then again after she passed, Jessica is planing on calling me later in the day. I can't imagine what my friends must be going through right now, and I ask that you say a prayer for them as they have a difficult journey ahead of them.

We are as you can imagine all pretty upset, It really hit us all pretty hard, though we have a distraction for a while as Ryan's parents are here, we haven't seen them since September, so we are trying to make the best of the holiday. Please also pray for Kenzie as she's lost her best friend at the age of 11, I can't imagine, and for Rylie as she's taking it all pretty hard as well.

Thank you to all of you who have been praying for Alexandria and her family with us, the donations and help for the benefits we had. You have all been amazing!

Happy Easter
-Shelley



Very few things bring me to tears, but the loss of an 11 year old little girl is one of them. I cant imagine what the parents are going through.

Sorry if this doesnt really belong here, and while its not really a "personal" loss, its a loss I never quite seem to understand why "HE" lets happen.
11 years old, on Easter Sunday, damn.
No need for anyone to respond.

Chuck, there's a book out right now called "The Shack". It deals somewhat with this very question (as well as quite a few others). I'd recommend it. I wouldn't call it a definitive treatment on how to deal with loss, but it's a start.

Having written about this topic myself after experiencing some tough losses, sometimes all we can do is express our out and out sorrow and outrage to God and anyone else who'll care enough to listen. There just aren't ANY answers sometimes, much less easy ones.

This is a difficult one. Friends at 11 are so much more open and sharing than most friendships made later in life. I have always been struck at how well Stephen King can capture the essence of this type of friendship. See "It", and "The Body" aka Stand by Me from "Different Seasons." These young friendships go so much deeper when they are for real. I was fortunate and made some of these types of frienships on up until I was about 27. I could probably still do so except that others often are too mistrustful to open themselves to others so completely. I lost one of these deep friends in 1998. He was the best friend that I had in this world. He died very badly. That death has never healed within me. That space in my soul has never filled. I nearly lost another to a suicide attempt a few weeks ago. I have saved her life twice. Unfortunately, I was not in any position to prevent this last attempt. She says that this last attempt has burned the self destructiveness out of her. I hate to say it, but I do not believe her.
So yes, I know well what that little girl must be experiencing. My heart goes out to her. She needs a 'reassuring space.' In other words let her grieve as she needs to, give her the space to come to terms with her loss, but be near enough to reach if needed. In many ways, children are more resilient than most adults.
I think of my departed friend right often. That is ok. I just wish I had been in a position to save him and also try to convince him to seek help. I wish I had done that when he was alive.

God bless the child.

A very sad thing indeed.

Gosh Chuck...I am at loss for words. My heart and prayers go out to the family of that young child. How devistating. Please know that her entire family is on my mind this day. And God bless you as well my friend.

_________________________
"The difference between perseverance and obstinacy is that one often
comes from a strong will, and the other from a strong won't."

Mark

I never know what to say at times like this.I offer my condolences and prayers to the family and friends,but I never know what to say to help comfort.I also have lost loved ones,all my grandparents,friends,Although never a close one or at a very young age,and a wife when in my mid twenties.But to lose a child,I don't think I can say I know what the parents are going through.No parent should ever have to face that.I feel for her friend and do hope that she can be let deal with it in her own time and way.

Shit crap Damn!

My Daughter is 11..... Her and I had a very hard and good cry this even because we spoke to her mother on the phone from Thailand, and about 20 minutes later, as my daughter is packing for her first ever camp trip with her school away form her family it struck hard, simply because she misses her mother so much, and she's only been gone for 4 months....

I'm tearing up all over again for this girl and her friends and family and what the coming months are going to be to them....




Happy Easter, HE is Risen, We are saved, good night.



FE

Alrighty then, discussing deep theological subjects on a discussion board is about like trying to help someone rebuild a motor over the telephone. With that said, here we go:

1. Greg, go back and re-read the parable. The seed is the word of God sown in our lives, not God sowing humanity onto rocky ground, etc. Some of us listen to what God has to say and accept it, integrate it into our lives. Others, not so much, or not at all.

2. Why the innocent suffer is an eternal question. The book of Job in the Old Testament tackles it head on, some say with mixed results, because it seems to give an answer none of us like, or at the very minimum, aren't particularly comfortable with: God is God and we're not. But let's look at that one a little deeper, shall we? Who of us as parents haven't said to our children, "Because I said so!" when the little knucklehead's incessant questions required an answer well out of their understanding? Maybe that's the key. Our very nature seek answers, sometimes justifiably, often rebelliously so. Yet if we got the answers we sought perhaps we'd be incapble of understanding them, on this side of eternity anyway. Even worse, sometimes there are no answers. Crap happens. The Scripture says the "rain falls on the just and the unjust."

3. Finally, Greg old pal, no offense taken. None given or intended as well, but yes, I'm afraid in the end, it really does require a bit of faith. Most of the time, it requires an awfully lot to get through this world with things like 11 years olds dying, tsunami's wiping out hundreds of thousands, madmen with guns killing children in schools, and pot bellied Koreans threatening World War 3 to get their jollies. I suppose in the end, when things like this happen, it can draw us closer to God, or it can anger us and drive us further away. Chuck, Greg, and everybody else: I guess you already know which side I'm pulling for.

The problem of pain is the number one intellectual stumbling block to faith. I enter this discussion with fear and trembling because it requires more thought than it will get in this limited space. Here are a few of my thoughts.

When faced with pain like Chuck and his friends face, I find that people are not really looking for intellectual answers. Mostly they need a listening ear and good friends. Chuck, I am willing to listen here, via email, or even in person if you would like. That said, I will take a couple of preliminary stabs at answers.

I believe pain, evil, and suffering are the necessary risks of allowing life. God knew full well the risk He was taking when he created humans, but he thought it was worth it. Life without at least the possibility of things going wrong is no life at all.

I will finish with my favorite quote on the subject:
"I could never myself believe in God, if it were not for the cross. The only God I believe in is the One Nietzche ridiculed as 'God on the cross'. In the real world of pain, how could one worship a God who was immune to it? I have entered many Buddhist temples in different Asian countries and stood respectfully before the statue of the Buddha, his legs crossed, arms folded, eyes closed, the ghost of a smile playing round his mouth, a remote look on his face, detached form the agonies of the world. But each time after a while I have had to turn away. And in imagination I have turned instead to that lonely, twisted, tortured figure on the cross, nails through hands and feet, back lacerated, limbs wrenched, brow bleeding from thorn pricks, mouth dry and intolerably thirsty, plunged in God-forsaken darkness. That is the God for me! He laid aside His immunity to pain. He entered our world of flesh and blood, tears and death. He suffered for us. Our sufferings become more manageable in the light of His. There is still a question mark against human suffering, but over it we boldly stamp another mark, the cross which symbolizes divine suffering. 'The cross of Christ. . .is Gods only self-justification in such a world' as ours."
John R. W. Stott, The Cross of Christ, pp. 335-336. Closing quotation from P.T. Forsyth, Justification of God, p. 32.

My sincere sympathies, Chuck. And, yes this is far too limited a forum to try to review the Christian doctrine.

However, read Romans 8 in the New International Version or the New Living Translation (More modern English) to get to a bit of an understanding of why all humans have to go through this kind of suffering. The passage gives comfort during the painful times like this one.

A link,
[url]http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=romans+8&version1=51 [\url]

Well,
Thank you all for the thoughts and kind words.
Special thanks to Tim. You have know idea what your offer means to me. I do realize that , while we dont understand the reason things happen, God has a plan.
I feel honored to be able to call most of you my friends, Id like to call ALL of you my friends, but Landen is kinda on the fence

You mean Landon's still on the fence? Jeez, I thought you pushed him off the fence a couple years ago...

I was gonna invite you down to Ky for a talk but the Mrs. got wind of it and nixed the whole idea. Apparently she'd gotten wind of the whole sleep over at Cook's/ax murderer debacle from a couple years back.

We love you bud. Got you and your friends on the prayer list, too.

Your confused Doug, I got Landen to come out of the closet. but hes still on the fence
And that whole killing people while they sleep thing seems to make most people a little hesitant to invite me over to their house

_________________________
"The difference between perseverance and obstinacy is that one often
comes from a strong will, and the other from a strong won't."

Mark