In today's newspaper There's an article on hummingbirds

http://www.philly.com/philly/home/gardening/20090515__Flying_jewels_.html

sarah merion station, Pennsylvania zone 6B

I hope Nancy reads this article I would love to hear her opinion on it

sarah merion station, Pennsylvania zone 6B

I'm sure Nancy will comment. In my opinion, if someone who is not a recognized expert states something contrary to was has been established as to be true, they better have some proof. Since she is supposed to be a photographer who has been taking pictures for dozens of years, certainly she should have photographs to prove her claims.

Joan Garvey - Metairie, LA Zone 9

You are right Joan, there is a lot to swallow there. But to tell the truth I don't care that much about the legend and lore stuff because if it gets folks to have a greater appreciation of hummingbirds and their natural world then maybe it is to the good. Still, I am scratching my head at some of the statements that are made with such confidence and thinking perhaps there are two species of hummingbird nesting east of the Mississippi.

Hello Sarah,
Thanks for posting it.
Hmmmmmm, I quite enjoyed the article. I didn't really learn anything since I had learned a lot these past couple of years. Can someone point out the questionable info? I read the article twice and didn't see any discrepancies.
Here's a portion from the 1st paragraph...and I quote it...

"Now, hummingbird lovers in the Philadelphia area are enjoying the springtime return of the native ruby-throats, the only hummingbird species out of 339 that breeds east of the Mississippi River."

I haven't read of any other hummers other than the RT breeding east of the Mississippi yet...in this article or in any other...and only heard/read of rare sightings of "lost" migrants of other ones...not breeding though.
Guess I missed what's wrong with the article...

Susan Louise
from Branford CT/ live in Lincoln NE
Zone 5

Have been busy with other things today so this is my first chance to respond. The first 'error', which is on the part of the writer, is use of the term 'pregnant'. Birds do not become pregnant. Pregnancy is limited to mammals, which carry and nurture their young inside their bodies. A bird that is carrying an egg inside its body before laying [24-36 hour period] is said to be gravid. This same term can be used for a number of non-mammalian animals that carry developing embryos internally without that parent providing any nutrition.

The other problem area [on the part of the observer] is probably a result of anthropomorphic misinterpretation of activities of the male. As far as I know, males take no part in incubation, feeding, or raising the young. If the observer is a photographer, proof of such activity would be a giant step forward in learning about the biology of hummingbirds. As the old adage says: seeing is believing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nancy L Newfield
Casa Colibrí
Metairie, Louisiana USA
USDA Zone 9

Hello Nancy,

Well, I definately overlooked those points...
Thanks for pointing them out...

Susan Louise
from Branford CT/ live in Lincoln NE
Zone 5

The one comment in the article that stood out for me was the statement about the 'dad' helping the babies out of the nest and bringing them to feeders and flowers. Now I have seen the femaile do this and actually saw a female show one of her newly fledged young how to use a feeder. For the most part I have seen them bring the young to my garden and perch while the fledgling explores the different plants then they leave together. Never have I seen a male involved in any way of caring them.

Penny
Niagara Falls, NY
USDA zone 6a/6b
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39

Let's get this article in prospective, first of all, species of Hummers do act differently, ie,shape, location, size, materials used, and the Photographer in question maybe dosen't know this,I didn't know that pregnancy was the wrong term to use,so I understand that part. secondly I think it's quite possible that certain species of Male Hummers do make an attempt to take a part in raising the young, not that I've seen it, but Hey! it's not totally out of the question, plus to think that a photographer can supply a photo of the event is I think asking too much.

Alan~S Cal

Thank you all especially Nancy for commenting on this article. I sort of know this women very casually in 2001 we met at a local nature center (Riverbend) when they were discussing hummingbirds. we went to each others house and exchanged some hummingbird plants. Then last month I went to the Henry Foundation for Botanical research plant sale while there I asked one of the Henry niece's if they had seen any hummingbirds yet.Thier property is filled with red buckeyes and native azaleas so it's a hummer magnet The niece said no but their was a lecture going on in the dinning room given buy a hummingbird expert So I went in and listened as this women repeated exactly what she wrote in this article and she showed pictures she said were proof. I couldn't tell I only saw one juvenile hummingbird no male Then she mentioned having hummingbirds in December I asked her if she considered having them banded she said never that would hurt them.I could see my questions were annoying her so I kept quiet and left.But when I saw this article today It kind of annoyed me sorry for going on about it sarah merion station, Pennsylvania zone 6B

Hello Alan,

All great points! That's probably why I over looked some of it...like the "pregnancy" part...not really caring about whether it's the proper terminology. I knew what the individual meant. Learning the proper terminology is all well and good too, but for some it doesn't really matter. Overall, the article brings up the main point of the enjoyment that hummers can bring to us all...and isn't that what it's all about?
Again, great points...

Susan Louise
from Branford CT/ live in Lincoln NE
Zone 5

Sarah, I'm feeling like I agree with you. If someone is going to represent themselves as an expert and contradict what is known to be fact by people who are authorities they should be able to entertain questions at a lecture on the subject and have some evidence to support their claims. Like Nancy said, seeing is believing.

Joan Garvey - Metairie, LA Zone 9

I think that Nancy would agree that most EXPERTS have doubts about their opinions, and are open to other points of view.I don't think that anyone in this article was claiming to be an expert,it's just that I left the door open for discussion on the subject.

Alan~S Cal

The woman we are talking about was giving a lecture. That would make me think she would consider herself an expert. She doesn't seem to doubt her opinion. I wouldn't know if Nancy, who is an expert, doubts her opinions.
Of course, we can all be proven wrong. It would be nice to think that the male would have some part in raising the young, but so far I've been told by people who know a lot more than I do that there is no evidence to support this idea. When Nancy first started out, she commented on having Blcak-chinned hummingbirds in her yard and was called a liar. She proved herself to be right. I'm willing to believe this woman when she supports her claim in some way.

Joan Garvey - Metairie, LA Zone 9

Quote!
In one remarkable instance,however, an adult Male Anna's Hummingbird was observed feeding nestlings whose mother had disappeard.
Pg 26 Hummingbirds of North America ( Sheri L Williamson)
I guess there are exceptions to the rule, as was my first remark.

Alan~S Cal

Wow! Great catch Alan...I have that book too!!!

Susan Louise
from Branford CT/ live in Lincoln NE
Zone 5

Quote!

The woman we are talking about was giving a lecture. That would make me think she would consider herself an expert.

you thought she was an EXPERT, not the Lady in question. And there is no doubt in my mind that Nancy is very very knowledgeable about Hummingbirds.
Can we still beg to differ, Please!

Alan~S Cal

From what I just read of Sarah's latest encounter the lady who wrote the article was considered an expert and she was the one giving a lecture at the Henry Foundation for Botanical research plant sale. If this is correct then this lady should have been open to Sarah's or anyone else's questions. I have found a lot of times that people who consider themselves 'experts' do not like to be questioned or contradicted especially by someone else who does have some knowledge on the subject and will ignore the questions or pass over them quickly rather than give informed answers. It is possible that the male of a species would take over some of the duties normally performed by the female but perhaps it was a differnt species than the one normally found in the area and an untrained eye may not detect that at a glance. I think the whole point is or at least what I got from the article and discussion is that this person is a self proclaimed expert on Hummingbirds.

Penny
Niagara Falls, NY
USDA zone 6a/6b
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39

First, let me state that I don't consider myself an expert and I hope I refrain from using that term in describing myself. Second, in the 30+ years I've studied hummingbirds, I've concentrated on identification and on distributional matters. I've had a particular interest in flight displays as they relate to defining species limits. I have discovered quite a few nests, but have not had the opportunity to spend any length of time observing nesting behavior. When asked for help in my areas of learning, I usually start by stating my experience and qualifications. In cases where I have no experience, I have no difficulty in stating such.

In my years of study, I've relied on the published scientific literature as a pathway to truth, but still, I maintain a healthy skepticism about outrageous statements. Nevertheless, I have challenged accepted wisdom on a number of occasions but only when I can present incontrovertible evidence.

Alan's reference to the mention of an adult male Anna's Hummingbird feeding a nestling piqued my curiosity, so I backtracked and located http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Condor/files/issues/v074n01/p0102-p0102.pdf, the paper upon which Sheri Williamson's statement was made. The author is straightforward in her presentation of her observations yet she expressed some reservations about whether or not she was accurately interpreting the actions of the male hummer. Having read the paper a couple of times, I see reasons to suspect that the male was not [in fact] feeding the nestling. I don't doubt the sincerity of the author nor the accuracy of her reportage of the events, just that her interpretation might not be correct.

This does not address the matter of the newspaper article that Sarah posted. However, I suspect that the observer cited could well have misinterpreted the behavior she witnessed. If she or others consider her to be an expert, so be it. I remain skeptical.

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Nancy L Newfield
Casa Colibrí
Metairie, Louisiana USA
USDA Zone 9

It's sad that the writer had to dumb down the article by assuming readers wouldn't understand what gravid was, but sadly in truth, they may have made the right judgement call using the word. Back when I rehabbed raptors and mammals I actually had several different people say to me: "I thought a raptor was a dinosaur?"

Maryjane
W Ga
Zone 8a

The only point that I was making,was that all Hummers are different in, nests, habitat,location,excetra. I saw a Northern Cardinal in Southern California four years ago, and was ridiculed. but now I have evidence of a nesting pair. So anything is possible.as far as the Lady in question is concerned. Does it really Matter? Or are we stroaking egos? She did however bring the publics attention to Wildlife in general.Which in my mind is very inportant.

Alan~S Cal

I'm saying the following "in general" and not pointing fingers...

I'm one of those that although I haven't personally seen something, doesn't mean that I don't believe. I'm not one of those that needs proof for everything...guess I'm not from Missouri, as the saying goes.
With that said...I would have been one of the believers that you had seen Cardinals Alan.

I also believe in Ghosts and UFO's too (I seriously doubt we are the only planet in the entire universe that has "beings"). That is just MHO.
At the same time, I don't believe everything someone tells me either, and use my discression as most would. Just because I don't understand certain terminology doesn't make me or someone else less intelligent either. One may not be knowledgeable on a particular subject as another individual. I got through Calculus in college, but I don't expect everyone to be able to know Integrals either...and don't believe they are less intelligent.
I'm probably one of those that would have thought that term meant a dinosaur too...unless I took it upon myself to look it up in a dictionary like any other word or term I don't understand. I'll be doing that the rest of my life. I don't know of anyone that knows all words and terminology that exists.

Susan Louise
from Branford CT/ live in Lincoln NE
Zone 5

The fact that the term 'pregnant' was used instead of the word 'gravid' didn't seem as much of a problem to me as the fact that the woman claimed the photograph was of a pregnant (or gravid) hummingbird when I have been told this is not possible to discern from a photograph. I also read the article of the observation noted in Sheri's book. It was from a one-time sighting which was to have occurred in 1970. I agree that anything is possible. But I think that people who are in a position of educating the public, and I'm referring to the reporter or the lecturer, should not present an occurrence that may or may not have happened as the norm and dismiss proven observed behavior.

Joan Garvey - Metairie, LA Zone 9

Joan,
This conversation is getting beyoned my typing skills and education level, so I choose to leave.I respect your views, and sincerely hope, that you respect mine.

Alan~S Cal

Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they choose to believe. I respect that.

Joan Garvey - Metairie, LA Zone 9

I respect everyone's views here too.

Penny
Niagara Falls, NY
USDA zone 6a/6b
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39