OK, here's my current list: (I'm in zone 6A, southwestern PA)

Lonicera sempervirens--starting to get some normal blooms after a terrible aphid infestation.
Heuchera sanguinea--Getting past peak.
Aquilegia canadensis--one plant still going, rest have gone to seed.
Kniphofia
Manettia bicolor--Has been blooming ever since I got it from Almost Eden.
Callibrachoa--Purple in a hanging basket, and red in the ground, bought at the grocery store.
Penstemon eatonii--Still blooming towards the top of the stalk, but on the way out
Penstemon pinifolius--Flowers are orange, at peak bloom and putting out lots of new growth. Looks less "scraggly" than it did.
Mimulus cardinalis--Several blooms, but not at peak yet.
Torenia fournierii--Bought as hanging baskets, but put in ground
Fuchsia--I think it's Gartenmeister Bonstedt--found it at Lowe's, it's the first time I've seen it there. It's absolutely dripping with nectar.
Lilium 'Viva' Opening its first bloom. A deer bit off the biggest plant.
Monarda 'Jacob Kline'--is on the verge of blooming, but not just yet. This plant has been hummingbird candy in the past for me!
Impatiens walleriana--From the grocery store, still small but blooming nicely. Have only seen very occasional use of this.
Cuphea 'David Verity'--Have yet to see a hummingbird use this. They love Cuphea micropetala, but not 'David Verity,' or maybe I just wasn't looking!

Cuphea schumannii
Cuphea David Verity
Phygelius Cherry Ripe
Salvia darcyi
Salvia Cherry Chief
Salvia Black and Blue
Salvia sagitatta X macrophylla
Salvia Moonlight
Salvia Lady in Red
Salvia Hot Lips
Lantana
Million Bells
Red Geranium
Stachytarpheta
Justicia fulvicoma
Orange clock vine
Fuchsia gartenmeister
Monarda Jacob Cline
Coneflowers
Agastache Tutti Frutti and Apricot Sprite

And yet they go mainly to the feeders.

Priya
Zone 7, Maryland

Weigelia still blooming
Cuphea ignea
Salvia coccinea
Salvia greggii 'Pink Perfection'
Aquilegia canadensis still blooming
Dropmore scarlet finally has a scattered few normal blooms
Bleeding Heart one still has a few blooms
Coral Honeysuckle has one normal bloom cluster
Silene pendula 'Celine' still blooming
Rhododendorn still has a few tired blooms
Maltese Cross
Pestemon 'Elfin Pink'
Salvia stampede series unknow variety
Agastache Tutti frutti first bloom yesterday
Iris Fulva first bloom today
Hesperaloe parviflora
Stachytarpheta jamaicensis (Deep Blue)
Rosemary
Hamelia cuprea
Heuchera sanguinea still going strong

Penny
Niagara Falls, NY
USDA zone 6a/6b
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39

Kristin-- No way I can even imagine david verity not being used by hummers. Im trying monarda grand marshall again this year even though it mildewed and turned to mush last year, this year its full sun.

[zone 6 ]

coral honeysuckle - several normal new clusters
agastache cana
agastache rupistris
agastache orange flare
monarda grand marshall -almost ready
salvia-- lady in red
cuphea shumannii
tomato plants -- he he he!

my garden is basically behind what it has been in the past , but it will get there, eventually.

Steve
Martinsville, In
Heat zone 6
Sunset zone 35

My sand bed is ablaze with Penstemon bloom right now--I plan to post pictures when I finally figure out my new digital camera. One male hummer is defending the whole bed, and has visited flowers from all blooming plants, even within an inch of the ground to get the lower blooms of P. pinifolius:

Penstemon barbatus--smaller ones in full bloom, taller ones just beginning--one plant has 18 flower stalks!
P. eatonii--just finishing up
P. rostriflorus--lots of flowers very early--isn't supposed to bloom until July!
P. labrosus--ditto!
P. cardinalis--peak bloom
P. pseudospectabilis--peak bloom
P. murrayanus--peaking
P. pinifolius--one larger plant blooming nicely, others sparsely

Also blooming in the sand bed--Hesperaloe parviflora

Some plants in other beds are just beginning to bloom:
Salvia roemeriana--overwintered plants and new ones from seed just starting
S. 'Scarlet Spires'--one from cuttings just beginning
Agastache aurantiaca just starting
Salvia guaranitica 'Black and Blue' just beginning
Salvia guaranitica from seed--a few just beginning
Salvia microphylla 'Red Velvet' from seed--just beginning
Iris fulva--at peak
Mimulus cardinalis--sparse bloom on seed-grown plants
Mimulus eastwoodiae--still blooming
Mimulus aurantiacus--peak bloom in pot

Donald

Donald that is a very impressive list. My first Iris fulva has just bloomed and the one Salvia guaranitica black & blue is just now sending up inflorescenses. my one Salvia guaranitica that I grew from seed last year and overwintered inside is huge but nothing even resembling a bloom.

Penny
Niagara Falls, NY
USDA zone 6a/6b
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39

Donald,

Can't wait to see the pictures!

Quote: "My sand bed is ablaze with Penstemon bloom right now"

I thought Penstemons enjoyed a moist soil? That is where I have mine planted....????
Are your Penstemon's new this year or overwintered?

Pam NJ 6B

Zone 6A, southwestern PA..

Monarda 'Jacob Kline' has opened its first flowers today. I wish I had more time to take photographs today. I'm expecting the hummingbirds to be all over it.

As for Penstemons, there are so many different kinds that I'm not sure of the requirements for all of them. I don't remember reading about any that liked moist or wet soil, but maybe there are some. The two that I am growing are P. eatonii and P. pinifolius. Both are said to like poor, well-drained soil. I added lots of sand and gravelly material to my naturally rocky, clay soil and did manage to overwinter 3 out of 4 of those plants. Excessive moisture is definitely bad for those two species.

I think I read recently that there is at least one Penstemon that can handle moist soil but for the life of me I can't recall which one it is. The few that I have are all in drier well drained beds. In one case the soil drains almost too well.

Penny
Niagara Falls, NY
USDA zone 6a/6b
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39

Pam--

As a general rule, Penstemons, especially those native to the Western US (and most are from the Western US) like lean, well-drained soil and all day sun. There are a few exceptions; some grow in wet meadows.

Don

Zone 4 Red Wing MN

I grew two types of Penstemon from seed 2 years ago and they were labled Moist soil. Penstemon Barbatus Coccinea and Navigator Mix Penstemon. Some survived in my garden (moister spot) and received their first bloom and some were left in pots (drier winter) and forgotton about. They also bloomed this year, heavily.

I have also had Penstemon Digitalis Husker Red for many years survive in the boggiest of my gardens and the tag says "Well drained soil". I guess that is why I thought they liked wet feet.

Glad I saw your post cause I just added Penstemon Rubycunda (blooms the size of foglove, not sure if the hummer will appreciate) and it went into the boggy area, I guess it needs a new home after all.

Thanks all!!

Pam NJ 6B

Just one of my Silene regias, a 'Prairie Fire,' is blooming. It's one of the two I got this year as plants, the other being a plain species Silene regia that isn't blooming yet. I think 'Prairie Fire' blooms earlier than the plain species.

The others that overwintered (a mixture of 'Prairie Fire' and plain species) were looking fantastic this spring, and I guess the deer thought so, too. Every one was lopped off and has had to send up alternate shoots. None of these are blooming. So, I'm not sure if that new plant is early, or if all of these deer chewed plants are behind.

I'm in zone 6A, southwestern PA.

Kristen,

My seline Regia's haven't bloomed yet, but I'm not expecting them as this is their first year. But the Ruellia Elegans from your seed had its first bloom the other day. What a lovely and delicate looking flower. Can't wait for the rest of them to bloom too. What is the full name for this plant?

Thanks!

Pam NJ 6B

Pam, I'm so delighted to hear that the seeds were viable and that you were able to get plants. Although I collected the seed, I had overwintered the plants, so didn't need to plant any seeds. I'd love to see a picture of the plant and flowers, if you get a chance. I don't know if what I had was a hybrid or a species and whether it will come true from seed, or how much variability there will be among the seedlings. Let me know! No one else on this forum who had grown this plant had any luck with hummingbirds using it, but I did have some success. Not their favorite plant, but I've seen them on it on multiple occasions, visiting more than one flower, so they must have been getting something out of it. I think it's quite lovely, and I'm glad you like it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "full name." I think it's just "Ruellia elegans." I've gotten the plants from different sources, and I can't remember where that one came from that was the seed donor. I think one had a cultivar name of 'Brazilian Red." I think my other plants were just sold to me as "Ruellia elegans."

I have another species of Ruellia this year called Ruellia brevifolia. I'm looking forward to seeing how it does. If I can get seeds from it, I will, but it isn't blooming yet. Its flowers are swollen, bladder shaped, and bright red. I'm hoping that swollen shape holds lots of nectar for hungry hummingbirds. Here's a photo of it on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruellia_brevifolia

My Silene regias have had two rounds of munching by deer this year; once early, right after they came up, and once again within the last week just as it was beginning to look like they had recovered. I love this plant in bloom, but I wish the deer didn't love them as much as I do. Incidentally, the Silenes are adjacent to a bunch of Penstemons, which have been completely ignored by deer this year so far.

Donald

Zone 4 Red Wing MN

I had a very similar experience, Donald. My Silenes got chomped on two separate occasions, but they didn't chomp the same ones twice, thank goodness. They went for one group very early in the year, and a different group, later.

My penstemons are only about 2 or 3 feet away from one of my Silene groupings, but were never touched. I was terrified my single P. eatonii plant would also be eaten, but its foliage wasn't nearly as lush as the Silenes. Maybe it also has nasty resins, bad taste, or a bad smell to it. My nearby Salvia greggii were also spared, and those definitely have an odor. My largest plant in a grouping of 'Viva' lilies got bitten off, too. Perhaps it was dessert after eating the silenes.

I have some Lilium superbum that are getting buds for the first time, and I hope to goodness they don't eat those, too. I'll die! I'll have to leave instructions with my family to let the forum folks know of my early demise. Yup, apparently she went outside to look at her Lilium superbum and found it bitten off to the ground. She collapsed, right there, and that was the end of her. Maybe they could bury me in my garden and write "Darn deer!" on my tombstone.

That's a discouraging rule of thumb with deer, they seem most likely to eat the tallest, most lush and vigorous plants first.

First Salvia coccinea Forest Fire bloomed on June 21st as well as the first Salvia coccinea Coral Nymph

Penny
Niagara Falls, NY
USDA zone 6a/6b
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39

Veronicastrum Lavender Towers (mostly butterfly and beautiful)




Is this a Toadflax? Lost the tag, love the plant!






Salvia Marchino Cherry bloming its head off, very pretty!
Mexican Hat overwintered in ground
Panorama Mix Bee Balm o.w. in ground

Blooming from seed first year:
Slavia Praeclara
Salvia Subrotunda
Yvonnes Salvia
Coral Nymph and LIR
Blue Spires Salvia annual
Ruellia Elegans
Canary Climber Vine

Agastaches are starting to bloom, but big flush still awaits sunnier weather
Agastache Tutti Frutti
Agastache Salmon & Pink
Agastache Firebird
Agastache Alcapulco

Penny,

Teaxas sage is still very smallish and of course np blooms.

Pam NJ 6B

Pam I am very surprised that my cocinneas are starting to bloom already even though they are still rather small (6-8inches tall at most)

Penny
Niagara Falls, NY
USDA zone 6a/6b
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39

Zone 6A, southwestern PA:

Salvia guaranitica 'Kobalt'--One of my 6 plants started blooming yesterday. Flowers do seem more blue or, should I say, cobalt in color than the usual Salvia guaranitica, which are a bit more purplish blue. These were gotten as plants from Avant Gardens this spring. I have never succeeded in overwintering this plant outdoors. As the summer goes on, and they all come into bloom, I'll be curious to see if the hummingbirds like this one as much as the S. guaraniticas from Select Seed.

All of my Salvia coccinea seedlings died when they were brought indoors this cold, dreary spring. Fortunately, it's a great reseeder, and little seedlings continue to pop up everywhere. I've been moving them to one area and hoping they'll flower by July. I'd probably have blooms by now if my seedlings had survived. They're leaving a big hole in my garden, but growing steadily.

Mimulus cardinalis--In full glory. I think this is its 3rd or 4th year and I've never seen it so tall, lush, and floriferous! It must love all of the rain we've been getting, and that the temperatures have been staying in the 70's and low 80's. It seems we are and are going to be spared the worst of this current southeast/midwest heatwave.

Delphinium exaltatum, flower stalks forming, will soon be blooming.

My coccinea are also very small 8-10 inches maybe and flowering, the aphid infected coral honeysuckle flowering and opening, the latter being used along agastache cana. My monardas not yet opening.

Update: I just checked today and my monarda grand marshall bulbs are opening and the petite delight have bulbls, Im sorry I dont have a lot of faith im the grand marshall surviving after what happened to them last year, but they were so pretty for that short time. Also I saw my first dark red stalk of a flower on my cardinal climbers, not yet a trumpet but it will be.

Steve
Martinsville, In
Heat zone 6
Sunset zone 35

The recent three days of rain have made a big difference. I have several Salvia c. Coral Nymph and Forest Fires blooming today. Still a long way to go but at least I am seeing a little spotty color here and there finally.

Penny
Niagara Falls, NY
USDA zone 6a/6b
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39

zone 6 B southeast Pennsylvania

canada lily three stalks one about 8 feet tall.

beebalm (too much)

one spiglia marilandica

one trumpet vine

lots of greggis and guaraniticas

and a salvia chiapensis

Asclepias tuberosa and incarnata (butterflyweed and swamp milkweed)



sarah merion station, Pennsylvania zone 6B

Add to the list in zone 6A southwestern PA:

Campsis radicans 'Flava.'

This was taken with my video camera after sunset as it was getting dark. I always thought 'flava' should be yellow, but mine are peachy golden yellow. This is the plant that inspired me to garden for hummingbirds.

Salvia coccinea
Salvia coccinea 'Coral Nymph'
Salvia coccinea 'Forest Fire'
Salvia greggii Stampede Series Pink?
Salvia greggii 'Pink Perfection'
Agastache 'Tutti Frutti'
Coral Bells still going strong
Penstemon 'Elfin Pink'
Penstemon 'Husker Red'
Penstemon barbatus 'Coccinea' Just Starting
Red Hot Poker
Aquilegia Canadensis winding down
One cluster of blooms on Coral Honeysuckle
hesperalo parviflora
Maltese Cross
Iris fulva
Scuttelaria Scooter 'Scarlet'
Monarda 'Jacob's Cline' just starting
Nasturtiums started blooming today
Weigelia is still sending up a few blooms

Penny
Niagara Falls, NY
USDA zone 6a/6b
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39

Three more additions today: zone 6A southwestern PA

Cuphea llavea "Bat-faced Cuphea" -- Bought as plants from Avant Gardens this spring. My first year trying this.


Delphinium exaltatum--opening its first blooms at the base of flowering stalk. I saw hummingbirds using this last year.


Alcea rosea (Hollyhock) -- A couple self-sowers are blooming. I've never seen a hummingbird use this, but bumblebees are all over it.

I have looked at the Delphs many times at the nursery along with the Foxglove but have yet to add them. I love Hollyhocks but mine always get covered with rust and then those unmentionable beetles so I finally ripped them all out.

Penny
Niagara Falls, NY
USDA zone 6a/6b
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39

All this keeping up with what is blooming and when seems to be a big waste of time. It was much more interesting whe gardners just posted what was boomimg as it bloomed. What person decided that we need to list what was blooming of given days. Do we need that much organization? What happened to just enjoying the hummingbirds and the flowers and feeders they like to use

When did the group get to be so highbrow. When did we get to tossing away memebers who had been with us for years but suddenly they didn't fit in like the new ones in control think they should.

What started as a great idea several years ago has to to something this too rarified for the normal hummingbird loverl

Faye, if there is a thread that doesn't interest me, I just don't read it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nancy L Newfield
Casa Colibrí
Metairie, Louisiana USA
USDA Zone 9

I have been meaning to post here but my days have gotten away from me...But I do like to have this record for myself and to compare with others in similar zones at a certain time frame and year. Its so nice to look back to years past and see how my garden fares to the present...And I appreciate seeing everyone else's success!

So far this June in Zone 6 (along the coastline):

Salvia Guaranitica
S. B&B
S. Chiapensis

Cuphea schumannii
David verity
Stachytarpheta jamencis - deep blue
Stachytarpheta - smugglers vervain - purple
Dwarf Red compacta false vervain
Penstemon Elfin Pink
P. Pike Peaks Purple Mexcalli
P. Digitalis Husker Red - drooping now
P. Red rocks
Ecchinecia Purple coneflower
Malaviscus arboreus var. drummondii - Turks cap
Agastache Heather queen
Aquelia Candensis - only a couple of blooms left
Red Buckeye - only one bloom left
Red Prince Weiglia - one bloom left
Gartenmeister Fuchsia
Locinera semiverins - Blanche sandman and Alambama Crimson
Dropmere scarlet honeysuckle - Was lovely full bloom - now mildew from all the rain

A surpise bloom this year - My Siberian iris just came out yesterday! (Last year they were hiding and not blooming....)




Carol
Milford, CT
Zone 6

What Nancy said.

Priya
Zone 7, Maryland

I guess that would be me, Faye, who started this whole what's blooming and when thread. I find it to be a very useful reference in a lot of ways, and I'm very pleased that I started it a few years back. I hear you, I'm listening, but I guess I just don't get it.

In answer to some of your comments, more than once members have asked specific questions in other threads about bloom times, or simply how long I had had a certain plant. I was able to search back through the "What's blooming" threads and answer their questions. I never would have remembered on my own, and it would have been much harder to find that info if it had been spread around various threads. What's the harm in this sort of organization? I think this thread has also been just as enjoyable on a more basic level. I've frequently seen nice photos in the "What's Blooming" threads, or been introduced to plants that I had never grown before, and thought to myself "Gee, that plant would go perfectly in my garden, and it blooms at the same time as a certain other plant does." It's also been a nice personal record for me, and one that I refer back to on occasion.

I don't see how this is "highbrow" at all, or "rarefied," or what it has to do with pushing people off of the forum. Apparently some folks find it useful, or they wouldn't contribute to the thread in the numbers that they do. You are free to start your own threads that are more to your own liking. I find plenty of enjoyment of hummingbirds in the "What's Blooming" threads, and throughout the forum, but it is expressed in a variety of ways--some of interest to me, some not. I am convinced that there is room for a broad range of views and approaches, and there's no need to censor anything, as long as it is not mean or nasty. I truly believe that "OOh, what a pretty picture" is just as valid a comment as "I read an article in Scientific American where they did a study of hummingbird foraging strategies...." Either of these extremes, from the simple to the scholarly, is equally valid to me--and everything in between!

Then again, as Nancy expressed so succinctly, if it doesn't interest her, she doesn't read it.

I agree with Nancy, Priya and Krisitn. I tried to email you Faye but your email bounced. Like Kristin stated I don't see anything highbrow about the fourm or that anyone was pushed off because they didn't fit in. You are more than welcome to email me and elaborate more if you like.

This thread has also introduced me to some plants that I may not have considered before or was not familiar with, particularly spring perennials.

Penny
Niagara Falls, NY
USDA zone 6a/6b
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39

Faye, I totally agree also with Nancy, Penny, Kristin and Priya - This forum is the best and we all have varying opinions. I however do not see how we are being what you have termed 'highbrow' or 'rareified' either. So hopefully you can join in and take what you like and leave the rest....and hope you find many threads to enjoy!

Carol
Milford, CT
Zone 6

"Uncle". "I give". I am so sorry I make my stupid reply to the post. As Nancy says don't read the post if you don't want to. I don't have to be hit on the head with an anvil.

It stoped raining long enough to see the following have finally started to bloom:

FROM Seed
Salvia Guaranitica from seed
Salvia Black & Blue from seed
Morning Glory from seed
Ruellia Elegans
Purple Hyacynth Bean
Ipomoea Hederifora Var. Lutea
nicotina

overwintered
Agastache Rupestris Sunset Hyssop
Monarda, Monarda, Monarda
Mexican Hat
Border Ballet Red Hot Poker
Magnus Coneflower(echinachea)
Salvia Hotline Pink

Carol,

Was your Schumanni purchased this year or grown from seed? I'm patiently waiting for my seed grown plants to grow some buds & blooms. It would be helpful to me to know when yours bloomed at you live in a neighboring state to me.



Pam NJ 6B

Pam
If it is any help, my C. schumanni from seed haven't bloomed yet either. I will bring some in to overwinter so they will be bigger next year if they don't bloom this year.

Penny
Niagara Falls, NY
USDA zone 6a/6b
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39

Pam - My Cuphea schumannii was purchased this year from Bustani. I also tried to grow one from last years seed and nothing happened. But this year after I planted the cuphea one stem broke off. I put it in some water and it has rooted very nicely. I plan on rooting more cuttings to bring in for the winter later on. It seems to root as well as Dicliptera suberecta which is nice.

Carol
Milford, CT
Zone 6

Penny,

I have one plant that is 12 inches tall and still has no buds. Maybe by migration? Actually, Its only the end of JUne, thanks goodness I kept these in pots or they would be water logged in the garden. Everything there took longer to grow this year with out any sun. We've really had an odd season so far.

Another slow grower is Cuphea Micropetala. Its only about 3 or 4 inches tall....Its gonna e a crowded winter!

Pam NJ 6B

Thanks Carol, I was wondering if I did something wrong with this pplant,time will tell. The leaves are up to 3inches long on the plant, I presume it will get alot bigger than 12 inches tall.

Pam NJ 6B

A few things blooming now for me.

Tithonia

Firebush Salvia

Salvia and lavender

Mexican Flamevine


Marilyn
FL zone 9

Thanks for the photo of Mexican Flame Vine. I have been puzzling about this one. The book says it is twining but the plant says otherwise. Your photo tells me that once I get it to the top of the trellis I should just let it hang down and do its thing.

In bloom -
Salvia greggii Coral, Salvia Raspberry Delight, Salvia greggii White, Salvia microphylla X Ark Rd Pink, Salvia X Ark Rd 3, Salvia greggii Theresa, Salvia micrphylla X Clay Sutton, Salvia greggii Wild Things, Salvia greggii White Witch, Salvia Scarlet Spires, Salvia micrphylla unknow dark purple, Salvia coccinea Coral Nymph and Red, Abutilon Voodoo, Salvia dichlamys, Salvia microphylla La Trinidad Pink, Salvia microphilla 18th of March, Salvia microphylla San Carlos Festival, Cuphea schummanii, Cuphea David Verity, Cuphea David Verity X ignea, Turks Cap, Coral Honeysuckle Alabama, Salvia subrotunda, Nicotiana mutabilis, Salvia Cherry Queen, Cana glauca Panache, unknown dark red Salvia micrphylla, Salvia microphylla Neurepia, Salvia greggii Stampede pink, Salvia greggii X Navajo Bright Red, Salvia greggii Plum Wine, Salvia microphylla Hot Lip, Salvia X California Sunset, Salvia greggii Lipstick, Salvia greggii Big Pink, Salvia greggii X Navajo Purple, Salvia greggii Pink Preference, Nicotiana langsdorffii, Russellia equisitiformous, Salvia guaranitica Brazil, Salvia elegans Tangerine. There are probably a few disgruntled plants left out.

The Agastaches complained: Tuttii Fruttii, cana, aurantica, mearnsii, Desert Sunrise, Ava, various wild seeds, and one Pam gave me last year who's name escapes me.

And Coral Bells.

Ward,

The Mexican Flamevine is actually planted where it has a pole to climb if it wants too. So far it's just kind of bushed out instead of climbing.

Marilyn
FL zone 9

Zone 6, southwestern PA. Another addition today, the Monarda 'Dark Ponticum.' It has just opened its first couple of blooms. The flowers are smaller than 'Jacob Kline', maybe only about 2" across, whereas my 'Jacob Kline' are easily 3 or 4" across.

The color is sort of a pinkish violet--somewhat more violet than raspberry in hue. I'm sure this will look different on different screens, but here's a photo:



It's far too soon to know if the hummingbirds will take an interest. It's very near my feeders, and when more flowers begin to open, I'll train my video camera on it and see if I can catch them using it. Although the flowers are smaller than 'Jacob Kline', it looks like there will be a lot of them. They're very pretty, in a quiet sort of way.

It's nice to see those photos, Marilyn--and Pam, too!