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Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

January 17 2012 at 11:10 PM
  (Login picaflor)
Hummingbird lover 2011

Dear all,

I gave cuttings of Salvia 'Amistad' to Steve Owens when he was in Argentina last December. I hope he can root it and sell it. It is the best salvia I have ever grown.

I really hope you can get this plant next Spring. It is a hummingbird magnet!

No PBR should apply to this plant. I found it in Argentina and I would like to share it with everybody. 'Amistad' is the Spanish word for friendship so.... share it with your friends!!

Rolando

www.salvias.com.ar


 
    
AuthorReply


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

January 17 2012, 11:15 PM 

I wish Steve was closer as I would definitely make the drive to get a cutting from his plant. I bet that JP will make the trip over to Steve's if he is succesful with the cuttings. Maybe Nancy can convince Rich Dufresne to make the trip and get cuttings propagated.

Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif

 
 

(Login Stevenindy)
Hummingbird lover 2007

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

January 18 2012, 12:21 AM 

For most of us who desire this plant Richard might be our best shot as Steve Owens is no longer in the mail order game.

Steve
Martinsville, In
Heat zone 6
Sunset zone 35

[linked image]




 
 

(Login costaricafinca)
Hummingbird Member 2006

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

January 18 2012, 8:01 AM 

The photos of this plant are beautiful.

 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

January 18 2012, 8:24 AM 

Sunset Magazine and Plant Development Services Inc. will make S. 'Amistad' available to the California growers and retailers in their distribution area in April. I have contacted them to see if there will be any online retailers that will have it available.

Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif


    
This message has been edited by Pennytoo on Jan 18, 2012 8:27 AM


 
 

(Login Naturelover68)
Hummingbird lover 2009

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

January 18 2012, 9:56 AM 

I hope it becomes available to online retailers this spring. I'm anxious to try out this salvia. Maybe it's the next big hummingbird attractor.
Rolando, thanks for your generosity in sharing this plant with the rest of us hummingbird and salvia lovers.

Gary
Napoleon, OH
Zone 5b/6a
Napoleon.gif

 
 

(Login hummymummy)
Hummingbird Member 2006

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

January 18 2012, 5:47 PM 

I wonder if it will EVER make it's way to Canada.

Cheri (aka hummymummy, vancouver, b.c. canada z8 -10 celcius and snowy)

 
 
I love Hummingbirds
(Login uksalvia)
Hummingbirders 2010

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

January 18 2012, 5:59 PM 

Rumour has it that this may be released in Canada/Australia later this year, or early 2013!

 
 


(Login Celtguy)
Brugmansia Moderator - Emeritus

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

January 18 2012, 6:04 PM 

And Cheri...you never know what will cross the border! [linked image]

Patrick
USDA Zone 8b
Heat Zone 3
Sunset Zone 5
SeaTac, WA...one cool place
[linked image]

 
 

(Login hummymummy)
Hummingbird Member 2006

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

January 18 2012, 6:28 PM 

Cool Robin... maybe in time for my new garden!! What enticing news!
Patrick if it crosses the border are you part of the deal :>) and ber the way are you still seeing Anna's, I've at least two regulars maybe more, it's quite the challenge keeping feeders defrosted and rotated out, poor Dh bless his heart has to get up at 6:15 so thankfully he can usually remember to get one warm one out.

Cheri (aka hummymummy, vancouver b.c. canada z8)

 
 

(Login kathijr)
Hummingbird Member 2006

Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

January 19 2012, 12:51 AM 

We are very anxious to try this new salvia and I've been looking around on the internet to see if any nursery will have it in stock this season, but no luck.

Anyhow, we will be visiting family in Oklahoma in early April and will be visiting a family member in the area of Bustani Plant Farm. If Steve can get this going, we definitely plan to visit Bustani (and may go there anyhow) and bring a Salvia 'Amistad' back with us on the plane. We will try and think of ways that we might be able to send a plant to interested Forum members. Frustrating that Bustani is no longer in the mail order game.

[linked image]

Kathi and Michael Rock
Madison, Wisconsin
Zone 4/5
[linked image]

 
 

(Login PucPuggy)
Butterfly Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

April 15 2012, 4:37 PM 

The pictures I've seen of this salvia on the internet look very much like S. guaranitica, just with a more purple flower, S. guaranitica being more blue. The leaves look very similar.
This would explain why it would be a hummingbird magnet, assuming it's closely related.
I'd sure like to order this beauty!

Sherry in Southeast Mississippi
[linked image]

 
 
I love Hummingbirds
(Login uksalvia)
Hummingbirders 2010

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

April 15 2012, 4:47 PM 

Seems like Salvia 'Amistad' may be released for sale very soon in California.

It is NOT a form of S. guaranitica, it is a hybrid, parentage unclear. Guaranitica obviously a parent.........other parent could be gesneriiflora or splendens, may have 3-4 parents!!!

Seems to be taking off BIG TIME in the UK this year.

Robin.

 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

April 15 2012, 4:52 PM 

I have been checking Calif. nurseries every few days but so far no luck. All the info online is indeed coming from the UK nurseries. We are all still waiting very impatiently.

Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6a
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif

 
 

(Login uksalvia)
Hummingbirders 2010

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

April 15 2012, 4:55 PM 

Sunset something?

 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

April 15 2012, 5:01 PM 

Sunset Western Gardens is the one I believe who did the US trials and will be distributing it only to California nurseries this year.

Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6a
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif


    
This message has been edited by Pennytoo on Apr 15, 2012 5:32 PM


 
 

(Login kecarter)
Hummingbird lover 2011

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

April 15 2012, 7:19 PM 

We have been working for months to get in on this game, with mostly frustration. I am visiting some of the licensed propagators this week to see first hand what is up. At this point, as far as I can tell from numerous telephone calls and emails, we will all be waiting a bit longer for this one. I suspect there is conflict in the plant patenting process.

Kermit Carter
Flowers by the Sea
Elk, California
On the Pacific Coast, USDA Zones 8 & 9

 
 

Michelle
(Login voodoobrew)
Hummingbird lover 2009

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

April 29 2012, 9:32 PM 

Cabrillo College has it listed on their inventory for the spring sale! [linked image] I guess I'll be there fighting with Kermit as soon as the sale starts in a couple of weeks... [linked image]

Bay Area, CA

 
 
Priya
(Login Priya_S)
Hummingbird Member 2006

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

April 29 2012, 9:57 PM 

Michelle,
You're so lucky! My folks will be visiting California in June, but this plant will likely be sold out by then.

Priya
Zone 7, Maryland

 
 

(Login kecarter)
Hummingbird lover 2011

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

April 30 2012, 8:41 PM 

I spoke last week directly with the patent holder, who will be enforcing his rights with vigor. We hope to be able to license and sell this plant this year, but will not violate the intellectual property rights of the holder. I am surprised Cabrillo College would take this risk. Aside from the moral issues, the legal liability doesn't balance against the potential gain. Selling this variety without proper licensing is not wise, IMHO.

Off of my pulpit now.

Kermit

 
 
Priya
(Login Priya_S)
Hummingbird Member 2006

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 1 2012, 12:59 AM 

Kermit,
I'm adding my name to your waiting list!

Priya
Zone 7, Maryland

 
 
Danita
(Login Danitagardens)
Hummingbird lover 2009

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 5 2012, 7:42 PM 

I stumbled upon this video last night:

http://www.greenhousegrower.com/video/c:72/varieties/1103/

It looks like 'Amistad' could be showing up at Orchard Supply Hardware stores any day now. Lucky Californians!!!

Also...Kermit, how is this plant being patented since the discoverer clearly doesn't want it to be? Do the rules change if the plant has to be imported from another country?

 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 5 2012, 8:52 PM 

I was wondering about patent rules and laws myself. Donald might have some insight on plant patents also.
Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6a
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif


    
This message has been edited by Pennytoo on May 5, 2012 8:57 PM
This message has been edited by Pennytoo on May 5, 2012 8:53 PM


 
 

Michelle
(Login voodoobrew)
Hummingbird lover 2009

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 15 2012, 12:01 AM 

Well, we made the drive all the way to Santa Cruz, to be told by the Cabrillo salvia propagator that about a week ago she was ordered to pull all Amistad plants off the sales floor. [linked image] Sigh. I guess I'll have to look out for it at Orchard Supply [I don't normally shop there].

I was somewhat annoyed, but I got plenty of other stuff on my wish list [some very unusual salvias!], and a nice Mother's Day weekend getaway.

Bay Area, CA

 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 15 2012, 6:22 AM 

Michelle
Why were they ordered to pull Amistad of the sales floor did they say?

Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6a
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif

 
 


(Login curlsihave)
Hummingbirder 2012

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 15 2012, 10:59 AM 

This is a beautiful salvia. Kermit do you have an offical waiting list?

Linsey
MN
USDA hardiness zone 4b
Heat zone 5
Sunset zone 43

 
 
Nancy T
(Login nancypdx8)
Hummingbirders 2010

Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 15 2012, 1:41 PM 

fwiw...

i have a friend who is travelling to folsom this week on business. so i called the orchard supply hardware that's in that area, and they didn't seem to know anything about the sunset plant collection or Salvia 'Amistad'.

i may try to call back again in a few weeks if the friend is going to be traveling again.

cheers,

nancy

 
 

(Login JoeSalvias)

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 19 2012, 1:01 AM 

Just picked up my salvia amistad today at orchard supply hardware in Fremont ca! Looking forward to watching the hummer action on this one.

 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 19 2012, 6:24 AM 

Would they consider doing mail order just for our forum members?

Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6a
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif

 
 

Michelle
(Login voodoobrew)
Hummingbird lover 2009

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 20 2012, 1:31 PM 

"Michelle, Why were they ordered to pull Amistad of the sales floor did they say?"

Kathy wasn't specific, but as I understood it, it was a patent problem. I felt bad... Cabrillo is a college trying to raise money for the horticulture dept., not a private nursery.

Anyhoo, I was just in Fremont, CA the other day! Looks like I'll be making a trip to Orchard Supply soon. I don't exactly need another salvia, but I want this one.

Kathy also said that the next Salvia Summit is confirmed for spring 2013 at the Huntington Botanical Garden. I told her I'd love an invitation. happy.gif It would be great to meet all the salvia-philes in person, after years of chatting on the internet! Plus, I've never visited the Huntington and it's on my wish list.

Bay Area, CA


    
This message has been edited by voodoobrew on May 20, 2012 1:32 PM


 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 20 2012, 1:45 PM 

Michelle you better hurry up and get out to Orchard Supply. If the word gets out that they have S. Amistad and are selling it everyone in Calif. will be heading that way. If it wasn't a 5 day trip and several hundred dollars in gas for the truck, I would be trying to talk my DH into driving out there.

Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6a
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif


    
This message has been edited by Pennytoo on May 20, 2012 2:07 PM


 
 
Robin
(Login uksalvia)
Hummingbirders 2010

Amistad

May 20 2012, 3:14 PM 

Just be patient, many dramas ongoing about Salvia 'Amistad. Wish I could help, but I cannot. Sure all will be resolved soon,

Robin.

 
 

linsey
(Login curlsihave)
Hummingbirder 2012

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 20 2012, 4:49 PM 

I think a nice forum member needs to buy them out and send them around the country to us! [linked image] I'd be willing to pay for what it costs. [linked image]

Linsey
MN
USDA hardiness zone 4b
Heat zone 5
Sunset zone 43

 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 20 2012, 5:09 PM 

Robin
You are too sweet! I think anyone who has become aware of Amistad here in the US is probably chomping at the bit waiting to get their hands on this plant...I know I am. If I thought it would survive the trip and get through customs, I would have my neice buy it for me from Sutton's and ship it over.

Linsey our forum members here are terrific but not rich [linked image]
Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6a
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif


    
This message has been edited by Pennytoo on May 20, 2012 5:11 PM


 
 


(Login curlsihave)
Hummingbirder 2012

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 20 2012, 5:26 PM 

Penny, I figured we'd pay this wonderful person back. It wouldn't cost them anything...well their time.

Linsey
MN
USDA hardiness zone 4b
Heat zone 5
Sunset zone 43

 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 20 2012, 5:54 PM 

Linsey
Now you have taken the fun out of it. I didn't plan on paying...just kidding folks!!!

Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6a
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif

 
 

(Login uksalvia)
Hummingbirders 2010

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 20 2012, 5:56 PM 

Sure cuttings would survive by mail, BUT...probably not USA Customs. I am not prepared to risk this, however, it does seem that it will be available soon!!! Over-wintered plants outside are slow to get going this year, as it has been really cold, and new sprouts are heaven for snails and slugs! But 70s forecast next week, hopefully some rapid growth!


 
 

(Login NLN)
Hummingbird Member 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 20 2012, 6:34 PM 

Robin said: "Sure cuttings would survive by mail, BUT...probably not USA Customs."

NLN: You are sooooo correct, Robin. And this is a big deal because once they put your name and address into their computer system every international package that arrives with your name or address will undergo extreme scrutiny. Been there.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nancy L Newfield
Casa Colibrí
Metairie, Louisiana USA
USDA Zone 9b
http://www.casacolibri.net/
[linked image]

 
 
Cheri
(Login hummymummy)
Hummingbird Member 2006

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 20 2012, 7:09 PM 

Theres a few of us chomping on the bit in Canada as well!

Cheri (aka hummymummy, vancouver, b.c. canada z8)

 
 

linsey
(Login curlsihave)
Hummingbirder 2012

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 20 2012, 7:12 PM 

oh, Penny. [linked image]

Linsey
MN
USDA hardiness zone 4b
Heat zone 5
Sunset zone 43

 
 

Michelle
(Login voodoobrew)
Hummingbird lover 2009

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 20 2012, 7:25 PM 

California has strict agricultural rules [we grow a lot of food for the country], so while I could send Amistad cuttings out, I'm not sure how easy it would be for me to make lots of forum trades. Though, I've received plants via eBay from other states without a problem.

But first I'd need to find this darn plant at Orchard. [linked image]

I'm still moving plants from my old place to the new one. GAH! Made a full car load today, plus filling the Thule box on top. What have I gotten myself into?? [linked image] I do believe I may have lost all my marbles! LOL. Definitely lost a bunch of plant tags (not to mention branches) during the plant move by the professionals, ugh!

Bay Area, CA


    
This message has been edited by voodoobrew on May 20, 2012 7:27 PM


 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 20 2012, 7:33 PM 

I know for a fact it would never make it through customs here. I have ordered seed from Canada that got sent back because the company didn't have the appropriate certificate and the Dept. of Agriculture sent me a nice little note. I wouldn't dare risk trying to get a plant in and get on the 'black list'. I will just wait impatiently like everyone else is having to do....or move to California LOL!

Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6a
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif

 
 
I love Hummingbirds
(no login)

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 26 2012, 9:37 PM 

Salvia Amistad is available at OSH for 10.97 in a pretty large pot from Sunset Gardens with the usual lifetime warranty. No tax this weekend on Memorial day.

 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 27 2012, 9:37 AM 

My brain isn't aw3ake yet...what is OSH

Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6a
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif

 
 

(Login Ornithophilous)
Hummingbird Member 2006

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 27 2012, 9:44 AM 

Orchard Supply Hardware--a large big-box hardware chain.

Zone 4 Red Wing MN

 
 


(Login curlsihave)
Hummingbirder 2012

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 27 2012, 10:24 AM 

Would it be likely that they actually have the true plant? Why are they selling it while no one else is? Does it have to do with ethics?

Linsey
MN
USDA hardiness zone 4b
Heat zone 5
Sunset zone 43

 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 27 2012, 11:21 AM 

Thank you Donald! well unfortunately Orchard Supply Hardware doesn't ship plants so that isn't an option for most of us.

Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6a
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif


    
This message has been edited by Pennytoo on May 27, 2012 11:28 AM


 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

June 10 2012, 7:27 AM 

I see that besides Orchard Supply, some of the Lowe's in California also has Amistad available now. Sadly, however, I think it is going to be another year or two at least before the rest of us are able to get our hands on 'Amistad'

Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6a
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif


    
This message has been edited by Pennytoo on Jun 10, 2012 7:29 AM


 
 
L
(no login)

Available in California

June 10 2012, 11:57 PM 

I can confirm that Lowe's does have it, at least in SV in Sunset branded containers. I got one today for $8.98, maybe 3 qt size. Pretty, habit very similar to my black & blue, but colors of course totally different. Nice, but I will hold out on judgement until I see if it is vigorous as some of my others. My hummingbirds seem to like them all, doubt this one will be better or worse - all seem good for that purpose.

 
 
Danita
(Login Danitagardens)
Hummingbird lover 2009

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

September 9 2012, 2:00 PM 

Guess what I just saw in the "New Introductions" of the 'Southern Living Plant Collection'!?!?

http://southernlivingplants.com/media_room/plant/amistad_salvia

That means there is a very good chance I'll find this locally next year! [linked image]

EDIT/UPDATE: I just called a local nursery and they said they had 'Amistad' on order and it should arrive in about 2 weeks! I'm keeping fingers crossed that they actually get them and I can snag one!


    
This message has been edited by Danitagardens on Sep 9, 2012 2:15 PM


 
 

(Login lcmacg79)
Hummingbirder 2012

Plant patents and Salvia 'Amistad'

September 9 2012, 5:17 PM 

I'm a hummingbird lover and a patent attorney. Whether or not you can get a patent on a plant that is "discovered" depends on the circumstances the plant was growing in when it was found. (Most patentable plants are the result of sports of known varieties or a breeder's efforts, not discovered without knowledge of parentage.) To be patentable in the U.S., a discovered plant must be growing in a cultivated state, not just found outside a garden. The inventor is the one who discovered it, and only the inventor or someone he/she sells all the rights to can file for patent. At the top of the column I read a post (sorry, forget the gentleman's name) from a man who says he found 'Amistad' in Argentina and wants to share it. It does not sound like he sold all the distribution and patenting rights (if it was found in a way that it could be patented.) You cannot take someone else's plant and patent it without their "assigning" all the rights for the plant to you. So (at least without a different set of facts than what was on this forum) it does not sound to me as though this is a patentable plant.
That would mean that the problem in getting it to growers/distributors in the U.S. is not around patents. I'm looking forward to hearing what you all find out about this plant, and eventually getting one of my own to try out in my New Hampshire garden, with many hungry hummers to feed!



Leslie (login lcmacg)
New London, NH
Zone 5b

 
 

(Login lcmacg79)
Hummingbirder 2012

Plant patents and Salvia 'Amistad'

September 9 2012, 5:27 PM 

I responded to a post in the middle of this discussion, and my reply appeared there, but am also putting it here at the end where it might be more visible to people who might be interested.

I'm a hummingbird lover and a patent attorney. Whether or not you can get a patent on a plant that is "discovered" depends on the circumstances the plant was growing in when it was found. (Most patentable plants are the result of sports of known varieties or a breeder's efforts, not discovered without knowledge of parentage.) To be patentable in the U.S., a discovered plant must be growing in a cultivated state, not just found outside a garden. The inventor is the one who discovered it, and only the inventor or someone he/she sells all the rights to can file for patent. At the top of the column I read a post (sorry, forget the gentleman's name) from a man who says he found 'Amistad' in Argentina and wants to share it. It does not sound like he sold all the distribution and patenting rights (if it was found in a way that it could be patented.) You cannot take someone else's plant and patent it without their "assigning" all the rights for the plant to you. So (at least without a different set of facts than what was on this forum) it does not sound to me as though this is a patentable plant.
That would mean that the problem in getting it to growers/distributors in the U.S. is not around patents. I'm looking forward to hearing what you all find out about this plant, and eventually getting one of my own to try out in my New Hampshire garden, with many hungry hummers to feed!




Leslie (login lcmacg)
New London, NH
Zone 5b

 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Plant patents and Salvia 'Amistad'

September 9 2012, 5:59 PM 

Hello Leslie and welcome.
Yes Rolando did discover Salvia 'Amistad' and if my memory serves me correctly he did supply one nursery owner in Oklahoma and another person in the UK with cuttings from this plant. I know it has been making the rounds of UK garden centers for a year or more but is just now being distributed to garden centers in the Los Angeles area through Sunset Western Gardens. I don't really know patent law in particular as it pertains to plants but it does seem odd that it can be distributed in the UK and not in the US and that once in the US only in Southern Calif. Of course I am one of many who doesn't live in the distribution area that has been checking online California based plant retailers all season long for a retailer that has it available and will ship.

Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6a
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif

 
 
Danita
(Login Danitagardens)
Hummingbird lover 2009

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

September 9 2012, 11:47 PM 

Penny,

The 'Southern Living Plant Collection' caters to the Southeastern U.S., so the variety seems to be moving beyond California-only distribution. I'm in Georgia and a local nursery said they have it on order this fall.

Leslie,

Thanks for the info! Something seems fishy with this case because the variety is marked "PPAF" here as well as "PBR" in Europe. I hate to think that a dishonest person is profiting off of Rolando's discovery and generosity.

 
 

(Login lcmacg79)
Hummingbirder 2012

PPAF and Amistad

September 10 2012, 4:51 PM 

I saw the Sunset website description of Salvia 'Amistad' with the notation PPAF, which means Plant Patent Applied For. I checked the US Patent Office site (uspto.gov) and it is not yet a published application. A patent application is published and available for the public to see 18 months after the application is filed. If something is wrong with what is said, a member of the public can send in the correct information for the examiner to consider. However, this is not available as an option for most Salvia applications, since they issue as patents in most cases before the 18 months from filing. For Salvia applications filed since 2007, only 12 have published as applications, meaning they were not allowed as patents by 18 months after initial filing. 9 of the 12 became patents shortly after the application published. For most Salvia applications, including 26 applications filed since 2007 that became patents within 18 months, they are issued as patents before the 18 months are up (in as little as 10 months!) so there is never a chance to tell the examiner something is wrong before the patent issues, after which it is very difficult to do anything about the patent, without spending a huge amount of money. For example, the application for 'Wendy's Wish' was filed at the end of 2009 and granted as a patent in April 2011, so the first publication you find on the US Patent Officce site is the issued patent. From the fact that Sunset is calling 'Amistad' PPAF, and it's not yet published, it seems that someone has filed an application for patent since January 2011, and it is likely that we'll see it on the PTO website as a patent before ever seeing it published as an application.

I agree, it seems that something is fishy here. If Rolando Uria gave cuttings away, intending for the plant to be freely distributed around the world, and he did not sign away his patent rights to someone who could then file on his behalf, noone should have been able to file for patent protection. Once the pending application is published, it has a section that requires the applicant to say how the plant was either found or bred. (For example, the following is from the patent for 'Wendy's Wish': "`WENDY'S WISH` was discovered by the inventor in 2005 as a chance seedling in a cultivated area of the inventor's Salvia enthusiast's garden." ) I'll watch for 'Amistad' to be published either as an application or more likely as a patent.

Leslie

Leslie (login lcmacg)
New London, NH
Zone 5b

 
 

(Login NLN)
Hummingbird Member 2005

Re: PPAF and Amistad

September 10 2012, 5:15 PM 

Leslie,

Thanks so much for this information. I have been very curious, especially insofar as Rolando told us that he intended it to be shared among Salviaphiles and Trochilidophiles. I don't mind paying a true discoverer for the use of the 'product', but I hate to think that someone without rights is usurping Rolando's prerogative.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nancy L Newfield
Casa Colibrí
Metairie, Louisiana USA
USDA Zone 9b
http://www.casacolibri.net/
[linked image]

 
 

(Login uksalvia)
Hummingbirders 2010

Re: PPAF and Amistad

September 10 2012, 6:21 PM 

I think that some people are becoming a bit too concerned about the release of the beautiful Salvia 'Amistad'. If you can get hold of it, do so, and enjoy it, you will!

A long story, which I won't bore you with, but Rolando discovered this plant, I brought it home to the UK where it has been an amazing success. I was talked into the PBR business...wish I had not...as this involves complicated procedures, which I did not understand. However, this has happened here, Europe, Australia, and the USA, different abbreviations in some countries. Had it not been for the party who talked me into this, Salvia Amistad would have not been distributed outside of Argentina and the UK.....the plant is sterile, and can only be propagated from cuttings, illegal to send abroad.

So, yes, there is a financial profit to be made from this plant. The "Party" which I mentioned has been responsible for world-wide distribution of this plant, undergoing many trials and quarantine-type restrictions, and will profit from this, even though they are NOT the breeders.....but nor am I nor Rolando, this is where the whole thing becomes nonsense. However...what is done is done. I have been informed that as I introduced this wonderful plant into the UK, and the fact that it is a great success world-wide, I will receive some royalty payments, not a lot, but trust me, every cent/penny will go to Rolando. I don't want anything.

I have a few new hybrids this year, 2 of which have great potential, but these will not be involved with PBR.

Huge message without one mention of hummers....if only...in England. Always adore the photos.

Robin.

 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: PPAF and Amistad

September 10 2012, 7:31 PM 

Robin,
Like Nan, I hate to see someone profit from Rolando's find but I do understand the situation. I think it is very commendable that you intend to give your share of the royalties to Rolando. The thing that bothers me is that Sunset Western Gardens is only going to distribute it in California and then add a few states each year after next year.

Danita mentioned that Southern Living plants collection will offer it next year to retailers within their area but that leaves the rest of us out of the loop and that just seems like those that have it are holding the plant hostage.

Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6a
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif

 
 

(Login greenmangardens)
Hummingbirder 2012

Re: PPAF and Amistad

September 11 2012, 12:55 AM 

Speaking as a nurseryman... if this is a plant that does not produce seed, and needs to be propagated vegetatively, it may well mean that they are having trouble producing enough plants to satisfy the demand in more than one region. Even tissue culture has its limits as to how many of a plant they can produce from a relatively small amount of stock. I don't know that this is the case, but the amount of time it has taken between Rolando's gift and the timing of the introduction in the US (assuming the plant had to be tested carefully for hardiness, seed production, diseases and all that) means that they may not have as much stock as they would like for a more general distribution.

I know you folks are hot to get the latest greatest thing, but be patient. The lack of the plant in other regions may simply mean that for once, the company in charge of its distribution is being careful not to unleash another invasive plant, or one that will be a disease vector. That's a good thing, even if it seems like torture for those who can't get it yet.

Anyone have any idea how well it does in relatively cool spring and summer conditions? I wouldn't mind trying one of these, but I have had rotten luck with most of the supposedly hardy Salvias. In general, they just never get going well here.

Brett Johnson
near Seattle
Washington 98040
USDA zone 8b


 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: PPAF and Amistad

September 11 2012, 10:18 AM 

Brett
Salvia 'Amistad' would probably do well in your area since it grows well for Robin in the UK but it probably wouldn't be hardy. Other than Salvia azurea, Salvia reptens the west Texas form, and some of the Salvia greggiis which have proven hardy in winters that aren't too severe, I don't even bother with the really hardy salvias as they are seldom used by hummers and end up taking over.

You might be right in the fact that the growers have not been able to produce enough plants since it does have to be reproduced vegetatively but it sure is frustrating possiblyhaving to wait a few more years for this plant to reach the eastern part of the country if we can get it at all. Most of us will have to search out online retailers that will ship.

Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6a
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif

 
 

(Login greenmangardens)
Hummingbirder 2012

Re: PPAF and Amistad

September 11 2012, 8:24 PM 

I've done ok with Salvia greggii in the past, but it doesn't seem to live too long here. It's pretty hit or miss hardiness wise in our wet springs. None of the other "hardy" salvias have liked my yard. Some like S. azurea even refused to flower. But, I like the blue, lol, so I might try it. Sounds like something to put in a pot and try and find room inside for it though... I wonder if it would grow with my agapanthus? lol.

Most people don't realize how difficult it is to ramp up production of something like this. At a guess, I would say the first year's production was used simply to get enough plants to provide material for the next year's production, especially for a plant they are advertizing as much as this. Depending on how they are handling the distribution, they may be holding onto production and not allowing others to license production themselves, which will mean an even tighter bottleneck where only a handful of wholesale outfits in California are actually producing the plants. It seems to me this may be the route they are going. It's a relatively slow way to do it. Often with these, the owner of the patent will accept contracts from around the country to grow and propagate the plants, but if they aren't doing that, it may be a while till you see them in other regions. Hmm, come to think of it, until the patent is issued, I don't think they can legally accept a contract to propagate it, so they may have to be doing all that in house.

Personally I think that is rather unethical, considering what Rolando said at the top about wanting everyone to have a crack at it, and it be free to produce. I would love to know the whole story there. I suspect someone is taking advantage of the situation... but then, if they are producing it so that it will get out to the whole country, it may be getting around faster than if just a few small local companies were propagating a few in house each year. Since Rolando has been silent about the whole thing, it does make you wonder.

I'm not a plant patent attorney, and I don't know what is going on here, but I do question how a plant that clearly was found in another country and even shared to nurserymen to produce it in Europe as well as in the US, could get a plant patent. From what I understood of plant patents, once the plant has exchanged hands, it can't be patented. For example, if you buy a variegated unnamed sport at the local nursery, you can't patent it. You can name it, propagate it and distribute it, but you didn't grow it from seed yourself so you don't have the right to patent it. Whether or not money changes hands in the passing of the plant as far as I know doesn't make any difference, it just makes it more difficult to track where the plant originated. But in this case there is a clear provenance for the plant and a public acknowledgment that the plant should remain open to propagation by the original owner of the plant. That being the case it makes me wonder how in the world any kind of plant patent can be applied to this cultivar.

On the other hand, just putting "patent pending" on things is almost as good as a patent until the legality of the patent is resolved, so maybe that is the angle the propagators are playing. Hard to say.

Brett Johnson
near Seattle
Washington 98040
USDA zone 8b


 
 
Danita
(Login Danitagardens)
Hummingbird lover 2009

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

September 11 2012, 11:55 PM 

Hi Robin,

Thanks for checking in and letting us know the gist of the situation. I'm sure we all understand that things don't always go as we intend, despite our best intentions. Hopefully those royalties will help support Rolando's gardening habit and wonderful website for a while. happy.gif

Like you mentioned, the one advantage is that 'Amistad' has been distributed world-wide in a timely manner. I'm looking forward to finding one to buy, hopefully in a few weeks time. I even have a purple pot waiting for it!

 
 


(Login Pennytoo)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

September 12 2012, 7:48 AM 

Well I am still checking online weekly for ANYONE who may be offering 'Amistad' via mail order.

Penny
NY
USDA hardiness zone 6a
Heat zone 4
Sunset zone 39
North_Tonawanda.gif

 
 

(Login RichDufresne)
Hummingbird lover 2013

Re: Salvia 'Amistad' UPDATES

May 8 2013, 12:01 AM 

For an update on Amistad, check Leslie's recent comment on GardenWeb

Interesting U.S. patent issued yesterday on 'Amistad' - PP23,578

Posted by lcmacg79 none (My Page) on Wed, May 1, 13 at 22:25

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/salvia/msg0522251030788.html?1

I wish I had found this thread (not lcmacg79's) sooner, because it would have answered almost all of my questions. What a complicated mess!


 
 
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