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Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

October 15 2016 at 3:26 PM
Dan  (Login hawkeye_wx)
Hummingbird lover 2009

Check out what just popped up in Monrovia's salvia catalog.

http://www.monrovia.com/plant-catalog/plants/5940/bodacious-rhythm-and-blues-salivia/
http://planthaven.com/plant/salvia-bodacious-rhythm-and-blues/

It is a new guaranitica hybrid being marketed as an improved 'black & blue'. It says the source is Kermit Carter.

Plant Description:

Gorgeous new hybrid blooms earlier than popular 'Black and Blue' sage, freely reflowering throughout the season. Tall spikes display saturated cobalt-blue flowers, each held by an elegant black whorl. Dark green foliage maintains rich color, cloaking a tighter growth habit than others. Striking color contrast for bright-flowering perennials. Herbaceous perennial.

History:

This new x guaranitica hybrid was developed by Salvia breeding specialist Kermit Carter, and was selected for improved attributes over similar varieties. In comparison to 'Black and Blue', this salvia exhibits: earlier blooming habit, tighter clumping form, and dark green foliage that does not tend to fade or become yellow.

I'd like to hear more about how it compares to both 'black & blue' and 'black & bloom'. Is it less brittle than 'black & bloom'? Are the blooms the same color as 'black & blue'? The few available photos appear a bit more purple, but I've seen 'black & blue' photos look purple as well.
East-central Iowa
Zone 5a


    
This message has been edited by hawkeye_wx on Oct 15, 2016 4:05 PM


 
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Dylan
(Login utahxericman)
Hummingbird Lover 2016

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

October 15 2016, 9:14 PM 

Dan, This Salvia was talked about by Kermit at the Salvia summit. It appears to be what is being published, Kermit was very high on this plant, but I will let him share more with you all about it as all I know was from a few power point slides from his presentation.

 
 
I love Hummingbirds
(Login kecarter)
Hummingbird lover 2011

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

October 15 2016, 9:45 PM 

I'll be posting a full description of this new plant soon. Briefly, it is not brittle like Black and Bloom, does not have the leaf drop or yellow leaves of Black & Blue; blooms earlier branches freely and has many more flowers that are generally larger than others of this species. It was tested countrywide this year and will be widely available in 20127.

More soon.
Kermit Carter
Flowers by the Sea
Elk, California
On the Pacific Coast, USDA Zones 8 & 9

 
 

Kathi and Michael Rock
(Login kathirock)
Hummingbird Member 2006

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

October 16 2016, 2:14 AM 

We will be very anxious to try it---it looks so beautiful. Congratulations Kermit on your development of this plant and I'm sure it will be in great demand.

I know it's asking too much, but I only wish a Salvia guaranitica could be developed that was hardy to zone 5!

[linked image]
Michael and Kathi Rock
Madison, WI
Zone 5

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by kathirock on Oct 16, 2016 2:17 AM


 
 
Ward Dasey
(Login WardDas)
Hummingbird Moderator 2005

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

October 17 2016, 11:39 AM 

Interesting, I remember Kermit saying he was working on a much improved version of Black & Blue. Having long ago reached a point of taking Black & Blue for granted and having tried many other guaranitica since including ones grown from seed it occurred to me that I hadn't realized what a fine plant it is: flower timing and particularly growth habit plus hardiness. The idea of an improved version has certainly got my attention. It also doesn't hurt that the breeder has been a helpful member of our forum for some time now.


    
This message has been edited by WardDas on Oct 17, 2016 11:41 AM


 
 
Indy Steve
(Login SteveWnindy)
Hummingbird lover 2007

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

October 17 2016, 1:44 PM 

In the photos the flowers also appear larger thicker than other guaraniticas.
Steve
Martinsville In.
Zone 6

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Kathi and Michael Rock
(Login kathirock)
Hummingbird Member 2006

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

October 17 2016, 3:44 PM 

I wonder how this form of Salvia guaranitica will compare to 'Black and Bloom'?

I will definitely be ordering 'Rhythm & Blues' from Flowers By The Sea.
Michael and Kathi Rock
Madison, WI
Zone 5

[linked image]

 
 
Robin
(Login Robinmid)
Hummingbird lover 2013

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

October 17 2016, 4:59 PM 

I am sceptical about this....

 
 
I love Hummingbirds
(Login kecarter)
Hummingbird lover 2011

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

October 17 2016, 9:01 PM 

Robin, you'll be able to see it at the HTA National Plant Show next June.
Kermit Carter
Flowers by the Sea
Elk, California
On the Pacific Coast, USDA Zones 8 & 9

 
 
Richard Dufresne
(Login RichDufresne)
Hummingbird lover 2013

Naming convention

October 18 2016, 10:17 PM 

Shouldn't it be Salvia guaranitica x or Salvia guaranitica var.? Or did the sponsoring nursery make that decision? I don't think you can use an already defined and committed species epithet for a defined hybrid like Salvia x jamensis = Salvia greggii x microphylla. I don't think either Kermit or PlantHaven necessarily have the last say on this issue. x jamensis is a committed hybrid name for crosses between greggii and microphylla.

If this new form is a cross between two guaraniticas, the x is unnecessary. If it is an open pollinated form, should the x not follow the species epithet?

The wrong name may make searching difficult. This looks like a major improvement for the species. I hope it works out better than Black and Bloom.

 
 

Cathy P (Downers Grove, IL Zone 5b)
(Login Bazuhi)
Hummingbird Lover 2014

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

October 23 2016, 8:00 PM 

Hmmm I like the earlier flowering point on this one..
I will have to keep my eyes open..
.
I do have an observation.. I have volunteer seedlings of Black and
Blue which I have moved to other areas, some of them I thought
where Ensign till they bloomed...dang it..
I have noticed one thing about these compared to my original
plants..the calyxes are actually huge, now I
am going to have to go out tomorrow and see if the flower size is
different and what color the calyxes are.
Can I assume these have reverted to a parent plant?
Cathy P
A Hummingbird Fan in Downers Grove, Illinois
Zone 5a
bazuhi@sbcglobal.net
See My Hummingbird Gardens and Plants
https://www.facebook.com/Cathy-Ps-Hummingbird-Gardens-885457968170727/photos_stream?tab=photos_albums
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Ilena Zone 5
(Login Cheddarchick)
Hummingbird Lover 2016

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

November 5 2016, 3:16 PM 

Hey Kermit can we preorder it for spring?
Ilena Zone 5 Elkhorn, WI

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I love Hummingbirds
(Login kecarter)
Hummingbird lover 2011

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

November 5 2016, 5:09 PM 

Sorry to take so long to get out the information about this plant. Nursery work can be all encompassing at times.

‘Rhythm and Blues’ was developed as an alternative to ‘Black & Blue’. For so many (including some of the nation’s major wholesale growers) ‘Black & Blue’ has been problematic: the foliage tends to yellow out and not persist, the plant habit is not branched and compact and the flower to foliage ratio is not at all good. Breakage and wind damage are common complaint as well when the plant is at the peak of its growth.

Over the course of several seasons we developed a plant that has glossy deep green persistent leaves, very good branching, a strong woody structure that is not prone to breakage and is exceptionally floriferous. The flowers are large and each inflorescence typically has 13 whorls of 6 to 12 flowers each. They are not a true clear blue, having a purplish tint, but look more blue than purple.

After our trials here in 2014, it was grown and evaluated all across the country in 2015 - in California, Georgia, Ohio, Illinois, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Michigan, Oregon, California, South Carolina and Florida. Several of the trial sites grew it in parallel with ‘Black & Blue’, ‘Black and Bloom’ and ‘Amistad’. In every case, it was faster growing, earlier to bloom and had greater “flower power” in standard sizes of retail containers than those it was being compared to. In every case the evaluations found it to be superior to ‘Black & Blue’ (from the point of view of the wholesale grower). As a result, it has been picked up by several of these growers this year. After the 2017 California Spring Trials we anticipate it becoming a standard variety in the US. European and Australian trials are scheduled for next year.

We have all the Salvia guaranitica type varieties we offer in our test gardens. The first one to come into bloom in the spring is ‘Rhythm & Blues’, and now in early November it is still putting out flowers, many weeks after all others have ceased blooming. The young hummingbirds that overwinter here are quite enamored with it. We’ve not done a brix test on the nectar, but there is a great deal of it and our hummingbirds are all over it.

We’ll have it available for pre-ordering on our site January 1st, for delivery starting in March. Vikki and I hope you and your bird friends enjoy it as much as we have.

I'll post a few more pictures soon. Photobucket is not working right now.

Kermit Carter
Flowers by the Sea
Elk, California
On the Pacific Coast, USDA Zones 8 & 9

 
 

Kathi and Michael Rock
(Login kathirock)
Hummingbird Member 2006

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

November 5 2016, 7:10 PM 

Thanks for this update Kermit. I can hardly wait to try it next spring. I guess it goes without saying that hummingbirds love it just as much as they do 'Black and Blue' and other forms of Salvia guaranitica.

[linked image]
Michael and Kathi Rock
Madison, WI
Zone 5

[linked image]

 
 
Dan
(Login hawkeye_wx)
Hummingbird lover 2009

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

November 5 2016, 8:25 PM 

Thanks for the update, Kermit.

I've seen it described as fast growing to 3 x 3 ft. Does it really just slam on the brakes at that size or does it ultimately become much larger than black & blue?
East-central Iowa
Zone 5a


    
This message has been edited by hawkeye_wx on Nov 5, 2016 8:46 PM


 
 
I love Hummingbirds
(Login kecarter)
Hummingbird lover 2011

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

November 5 2016, 9:05 PM 

Dan:

We've got it to 4 feet in a long growing season, but in the trials last year 3 feet was generally the max.
Kermit Carter
Flowers by the Sea
Elk, California
On the Pacific Coast, USDA Zones 8 & 9

 
 
Richard Dufresne
(Login RichDufresne)
Hummingbird lover 2013

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

November 6 2016, 9:20 AM 

Kermit. that's yet another positive trait. People want smaller, more compact plants. I hope it proves hardy to at least zone 6b in my subtropical climate. Now to make Salvias more adaptable to climate disruption.

This has become the week to move plants into my greenhouse.


    
This message has been edited by RichDufresne on Nov 10, 2016 11:24 AM


 
 

Kathi and Michael Rock
(Login kathirock)
Hummingbird Member 2006

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

November 6 2016, 12:04 PM 

We are still quite warm here in the Upper Midwest, so I am going to take advantage of it and give our tender plants a little more time outside. We still have not yet experienced a hard freeze in Madison, Wisconsin, which is unheard of for almost mid-November!

[linked image]
Michael and Kathi Rock
Madison, WI
Zone 5

[linked image]

 
 
Ilena Zone 5
(Login Cheddarchick)
Hummingbird Lover 2016

Re: Salvia x guaranitica 'rhythm and blues'

November 8 2016, 5:58 AM 

Fall has been wow here..Almost scary for when the other shoe drops....
Ilena Zone 5 Elkhorn, WI

Click for Forecast for 53121 from weatherUSA

 
 
Richard Dufresne
(Login RichDufresne)
Hummingbird lover 2013

Late busting out of Salvia blooms

November 10 2016, 11:28 AM 

I've got to get all my tender sages inside for Saturday night, but will not cut them back because almost all of the wither bloomers are developing flower spikes. Gotta go and move my babies inside now. I hope to upload a collage of the spikes in a few days.

 
 
 
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