Risk Reward Scoring is a bad idea in my humble opinion as it is unfair, uncompetitive and basically rigged gambling the way I see it.
Risk Reward Scoring is where one can choose to shoot Off Hand at a target, as opposed to the normal seated position, and score 2 points if they drop the target whereas a Seated Shootter would only be awarded 1 point for the same target.
The Off Hand shooter gets all the Benefits of the RISK but if they MISS, they accept the SAME LOSS as a Seated Shooter would if they missed the target. I.e. the Off Hand shot is taken and they miss and all they get is a ZERO. As such, is there any REAL RISK in opting for the Off Hand Shot?!?! In my opinion, NO!!!
IF Risk Reward Scoring were to be FAIR and EQUITABLE to all shooters, the Off Hand Shot that is missed would get a -2 for having taken the Risk and Missed their shot. With Increased Risk comes Increased Rewards or Losses in the REAL WORLD.
As is, the concept is further flawed by the fact that it FAVORS the Off Hand Shooter Only! As proposed, there are no similar provisions for a Seated Shooter to earn 2 points off of a Seated Shot. As such is that Fair and Equitable to All Competitors? I think not! It basically "Loads the Deck"' for a group/subset of shooters to benefit from without any REAL RISK or DOWNSIDES for taking the "So Called Risk".
Operationally speaking it creates more issues for Match Directors. As is, in FT/HFT, Match Directors are busy enough with reconciling score cards utilizing the existing system which is quite simple by design where you either earn a zero or 1 point for every shot you take. Add in any reconcilliations for faulty targets to determine final scores for a shooter. Seems simple and easy but it's a process where I have seen shooters end up less than warm and fuzzy with the final adjustments.
Now let's consider the added complexity of Risk Reward Scoring. You're gonna have some competitors trying to keep tabs on what other people are shooting, causing traffic and noise on the course as the real competitive shooters might be calculating "well so and so is clean and I'm down 5, better start shooting off hand to close the gap..."
Then there's the situation of a shooter saying well my card is wrong, I shot these lanes off hand, it was marked incorrectly. Lastly, let's not forget that Creative Dual Scoring Systems have been tried in the past with bad results. In the 2010 Cajuns, a situation occurred, due to a unique target and scoring system, where a shooter who knocked down less targets beat a shooter that knocked down more targets.
By no means am I taking away from what the shooter that won accomplished in that match as they were playing by the rules of the game at hand and earned that win fair and square but there was quite a roar after that event over how that situation should not occur again in a match, where the shooter that knocks down the most targets loses.
In summary, it comes across more like a rigged gambling game than fair competition.
Just thinking out loud about a forum topic that came up a few weeks back. What do you think?
Maaaaan do i agree with u. getting tired of people tryin to recreate PFT.
June 24 2011, 2:36 PM
Certainly donot wish to see that type scoring at sanctioned matches. Wht u do locally is ur biz,but don't argue tht it is only fair to allow at a regional or national match. Ivesaod this before. If u want to shoot an offhand game its called SILHOUETTES.
I think pistol FT is a nuisance in general. Takes away from the "actual" game IMO. I come here and see all the spirited discussions and I think many have their own ideas and agendas on what it should be to the point of who cares.
Add to that extra points for this and that and double your score if you shoot it with your eyes closed etc...LOL
Tony, Sounds like you have all the angles .......................
June 24 2011, 3:26 PM
figured out!LOL! I say straight up off hand for everyone the way pistols were made to shot. Sitting on the groud with your body hunched, head between your legs looks kinda perverted to me. Especially those guys that wear those wide rim hats so we can't see what their really doin, but they ain't foolin us and I'm envious I can't get my head that far south. Sucks getting Old! ;>)
This message has been edited by dayjd on Jun 24, 2011 4:58 PM
LOL, so you don't support the idea of the Proposed Hunter PFT Class EDIT
June 24 2011, 3:29 PM
that is being discussed?!?!
Yeah, this "getting older thing does suck", was playing hoops last night with my daughter and it took a while to "warm up" and realized quickly, "wow, I used to have 4.2second 40 yard speed, where'd the wheels go...hmmm, can still jump up and grab a few inches up on the basketball net but can't quite touch backboard anymore?!?!"
Time to get back in shape and regain more flexibility, as best as can be, lol!!!
You didn't shoot your Ranchero Off Hand at 2009 Nationals did ya?
This message has been edited by Trojan1994 on Jun 24, 2011 3:36 PM
Nationals at yegua, and last year at the Nationlas at Diffta. Was doing pretty well until that darn bee stung me on the upper lip and closed up both eyes. This is what I looked like after my eyes finally open back up. mind you it was only after I found some predizone. Don't Laugh and I won't hurt you.
Risk Reward is simply a convoluted, back-door strategy to sneak an advantage to off-hand
June 24 2011, 3:35 PM
And obviously a unpopular strategy, at that! An offhand class or sub-class offends no-one; but this Risk Reward as the ONLY game reeks of special-interest lobbying so badly as to have the majority of FT shooters reaching for gas-masks!
I tend to agree with the dissension about FT offhand and extra points..
June 24 2011, 4:11 PM
the offhand shooters could hit half the shots and win over a shooter who misses ONE>. lol..
I think that if folks want to shoot offhand it would be wise for a club to just offer targets to shoot offhand at a set distance.. shoot the target say five times on one card and pick your best one to be scored that month.. end of year have a bar b que and some recognition.. or something like that.. there are folks who want to shoot something off hand either to practice or becuase they are proficient.. I would not stuff it into FT though..
Pistol FT I imagine the idea is because pistols are traditionally shot standing and at arm's length.. but pft has already begun with FT positions.. hft with pistols if it comes to pass will need to mimic HFT rifle.. so sticks and buckets.. or FT positions..
so upright off hand pistol.. might be called standing pistol target.. or something else creative like that..
I would like to see if there would be additional interest if after or before other matches there is a shoot for fun and recognition local only of ten meter offhand, or some other such shoot, keeping the scores for comparison later.
the real question is would you enjoy another shooting game that helped you with your offhand shots for FT ? or for hunting in the feild offhand shots etc.?? would you shoot a target a month over a year time and pick your best to submit ? FOR THE SAKE OF FUN ?
Just wondering. I think it would be fun and an extra thing to do, and a way for shooters great at offhand to show their stuff and those that need pracice to get it.
If a group wants to allow a beginner group to score different. and it is not a sanctioned match just a fun shoot and they want some extra gratification.. it is up to the local shooters and Match director.. if it helps get people started great.. I don't see the harm in any non sanctioned kind of scoring or match ever..
That is a LOGICAL approach that MAKES SENSE. Remember who we're dealing with. Amazing the effect one shrill, incessant voice can sometimes have... especially on those ill-oriented to the interests of the vast majority. To call It the vocal minority would be an extreme under-statement.
This thread reaks of conspiracy theory .....really
June 24 2011, 8:43 PM
"this is just a back door way of helping people that prefer standing"!?
I have my reasons for liking risk reward which I explained in the lower thread about crosman PFT rules update.
I'm in no ones camp and have no underling motives. I just think its a good idea. This is my opinion so I'm not wrong but you can diagree
ok Jerry a question please.. Let's say you opt to take the risk to gain extra points..
June 24 2011, 10:24 PM
Should thje risk carry over if you miss?.. What Im askin is if tyou shoot and hit you get two points, but if you miss should you lose a point for attempting to take a risk to gain more points. It has been said that you can gain twice as many point if you make the shot, but if you miss you get the same as the guy that elects to not take a risk. So if it is suggested that is you opt to take a risk there should be extra reward in it for you, but in the same turn if you missed then you should suffer a great loss for attempting to take a risk.
My problem with Risk Based is that this may be a scoring nightmare if not managed appropriately. There are some other issues but I dnt want to get in to those.. It Crosman's match they can do as they like But I really would care to see guy yellin that this type match need be allow at the Nats.. You want offhand shooting sillywets imo is the place to be.
should not carry over.
If you miss a 3 point shot you don't have points taken off? If you swing for the fences and miss you don't get 2 strikes. If you go for a 2 point conversion and don't make it you don't get points taken off the board.
That is, if the hit counts as "1+1" (1 extra bonus), then it makes sense that the miss should count as "0-1" (1 extra deduction)... Ummh, perhaps that logic will put a stop to the whole "risk/reward" debate.
This message has been edited by HookEm on Jun 26, 2011 8:49 AM
At DeSoto Airgunners Club in Florida we incorporate a Risk-Reward in an annual match we call " Golf Scored FT" As in golf... low score wins. Up to three shots are allowed in attempt to knock the target down. Miss all 3 shots at the target and you score a 4. Hit on your third shot, score a 3; hit on your second shot, score a 2; hit on your first shot, a "hole in one", you score it a 1..AND, you'll have the option of taking another shot at that same target. If you kill it again you are scored a "0" for that target. However, if you miss on that second shot, you score a 2 for that target. This risk - reward factor becomes a big part of the game. Knowing which target to "double up on" can sometimes be key to winning a golf scored FT match.
There are enough (apparently) "easy" targets that even the most conservative of shooters were tempted to take that second shot after a good first shot. As we all know even the simple ones are never a sure thing. There is agony across the face of shooters after missing a "gimme", specially when their score ballooned from a potential zero to a 2 when they missed their elected second shot. It's not gambling....It's a Ton of Fun. We always have a good laugh when its all over.
PS: This year Donovan Taylor had a match score of 0 thats zero !! He simply doubled down on every "hole" and nailed it.
This message has been edited by desotoairgunners on Jun 25, 2011 11:20 AM
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