Okay, I put my money where my mouth was and shot our local match UKAHFT style.
I tried to mimic it as best I could within what was set up for this months match. The course is currently a 30 TDF.
Here is where the course varied from the UK setup.
1) We had targets past 45 yards.
2) There were no "pegs" installed, I just shot on the pad or used support when available.
3) They have some specific rules regarding the number of supported standing and kneeling shots. I came close to this but only by accident. IIRC, I took 2 supported standing shots and 1 supported kneeling.
4) We had Kill Zones smaller that what is shot on a normal UKHFT course.
Here's what I did.
1) Shot a rifle at 12fpe.
2) Set my scope up at 6x with the parallax set for 30 yards and did not touch it. This provided a slightly fuzzy image at 16 yards and pretty blurry at 10 yards.
3) Shot prone where it worked, shot kneeling where it didn't.
4) Shot forced position as normal.
We had 24 targets at 2 shots per for a max score of 48. Initially, I thought about doubling my score and possible total since 2 points are awarded for a knockdown. This gave me a 66/96. But to be a bit more true to the UK standard of one shot per target, 2 points for a knockdown, one point for a faceplate hit and 0 for a miss, I only counted my first engagement with the target. So my score was 35/48.
My experience was very positive. I didn't find the lack of range finding to be as much of a handicap as I had envisioned. In the unsupported prone, I found the position to be very steady. Kneeling was also solid. Supported positions were the easiest, of course.
I can see that it will be very easy to set up a course within a course. The UKAHFT targets have to be painted yellow or white with black KZ's. Their KZ sizes and target distances would fit very nicely with difficulty factors maxing out at 40 TDF.
We've been currently running 24 targets per match but it's no problem to add or take away as needed. It should be no problem to set up 15 targets within the current setup that complies with the UK format. In order to get thirty shots, the shooting position could be varied a yard or two and also what was a first time out a supported kneeling, may be an unsupported kneeling 1 yard closer. The UKAHFT shooter in the squad would only have his/her shots count that are on the white/yellow target. They could shoot along with everyone else if they like. Not perfect, but workable I think.
What I was amazed by was how easy it was to shoot without range finding. My rifle is a Daystate Mk4. I switched the power from 18 fpe to 12 fpe last night. Ran the numbers on Chairgun and headed out this morning. I confirmed zero at 11 yards, 16 yards, 21, 35, 45 and 55 yards. And that was it. We've shot this same course for a few months now, so there was some remembering on my part, especially the near and far. But from 20 yards out to 50 yards, I was estimating. It wasn't too hard.
This may be what we've been looking for here in Heflin to encourage new folks to come out. And all it may take is some yellow paint and a few rules that differ from our norm. Amazing.
Map to the FT Park>http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=1150%20Evans%20Bridge%20Road%2C%20Heflin%2C%20AL%2036264
This message has been edited by libertyman777 on Aug 4, 2012 7:23 PM This message has been edited by libertyman777 on Aug 4, 2012 6:15 PM
If one NEEDS to steer folks AWAY from American Field Target by creating yet another different game, I guess that one can work. It will for SURE separate out the folks that cannot, or will not, kneel or shoot prone a lot.
I do not believe that Paul's intent is to steer people away from American Field Target.
Paul has done a great deal to further American Field Target. Before I came along, he secured local city government (Heflin, AL) support for a municipal field target venue. Now, he organizes monthly field target matches at Heflin's Park. He encourage participation of people new to the sport, and balances that with making things interesting for some very accomplished shooters.
Personally I probably would never have shot any field target if not for Paul's encouragement. I also am pretty happy with shooting "regular" American Field Target. I sure haven't been steered away from that by Paul trying out the British HFT rule set.
People like Paul, saying "Hey come out and shoot with us, its fun", and doing work to make it possible is about the best thing possible for American Field Target.
BUT, if the game he is discussing is pursued without bastardizing it's true spirit and the important differances it includes in comparison to FT, the EFFECT would be as I said.
Its not about "feelings", its about effects.
To repeat, the UK Hunter sport was created with the intent of splitting away from Field Target, and was designed to be different in as many ways as was practical and still be able to draw much of the FT shooter base away from conventional Field Target (which it did).
This message has been edited by lhd on Aug 5, 2012 1:40 PM
Paul has grown the the sport and really enjoys shooting. I know for a fact his intent was not to steer anyone away from anything. I would have never shot Field Target had I not met Paul! He simply said he wanted to TRY something, and of the match participants he was the only one that DID try it, BIG DEAL... SO WHAT!!!
....that the entire body of UK Hunter shooters were drawn from the ranks of FT shooters?
If that is the case, then it is obvious there were some problems with FT for their Hunter Class to have such an enthusiastic following.
But I that is not the case. While I'm sure there was some migration, I'd be willing to bet that the bulk of Hunter Class shooters in the UK is made up of those that may not have been involved at all.
This is not a zero sum game. What needs to happen is that the pie needs to be grown larger. The best way to do that, in my estimation, is to make it easier for those on the outside to participate with equipment they already own.
With FT being relatively unknown here in the US, it may very well be that there will be migration to other Classes from UK HFT.
I had so much fun yesterday, I think that it is within the realm of possibilities to have 20 more shooters here within a years time. That would be a 200% increase over what we see right now.
We are discussing apples and oranges, yet the confusion seems deliberate
August 5 2012, 3:04 PM
The UK Hunter game IS a different game that FT ... its clear you KNOW that. Yet you are saying by initiating the UK Hunter game here, it will grow FT?
The UK Hunter game DECIMATED the Field Target ranks in UK, as was the intent. This is fairly well known.
Also, you say its EQUIPMENT that is keeping new shooters away in large numbers, with the implication that the simple Sporter type guns many outsiders have would be perfect for UKHunter class yet somehow not usable for regular FT competition? I say Balderdash! The current USAHunter FT class was more carefully designed to integrate sporter guns into it, and with exception of very high powered guns, nearly any typical sporter a typical airgunner not currently competing would own could likely be a useful entry rig in the current USAHUNTER class. I say this is about the most serious flaw in the logic that UKHUNTER would bring in new shooters that would NOT be attracted to USAHUNTER.
It's obviously a different game. But since we're all using airguns and fall when hit targets, I don't see the problem.
I also did not say that equipment was keeping anyone away. What I said was, there are people out there with equipment that aren't coming out and shooting with it. The game, as played, doesn't seem to appeal to them. These guys and their sons and daughters are hunters and they know when something truly mimics hunting.
This class of shooting, with one shot per target, improvised shooting positions (unless forced) and a two minute time limit (when imposed) is more like hunting than anything I've down with air guns besides actually hunting.
We're going to introduce this locally and see if it gets traction.
I suggest you call it "Liberty-Hunter" or some other catchy name, as its really going to be your game, not the UK one, which seems to me a better thing, being customized to your own club's needs.
I guess I was also considering what you were saying a little while back about this same topic, when it seemed more clear you know UKHFT wasnt very compatible with US Field target?
"Now having said that, I would rather us shoot something much like the UKHFT. I believe the secret to there success is that the two different sports are actually "different". Different enough they are not easily migrated between. It makes HFT in the UK mean more than just being Field Target "lite".
This message has been edited by lhd on Aug 6, 2012 1:04 AM
We need to make as many opportunities as possible for folks to choose? Perhaps we need to look at what has worked in other places and not continue trying to reinvent the wheel?
This isn't a new game. According to their website, it's been around at least a decade. There is no plan afoot that I'm aware of to do away with any American form of Field Target.
But I do think an argument can be made that this game (UKAHFT) is a good vehicle to get folks that own airguns out and competing with them.
Has WFTF destroyed American Field Target? What about pistol FT? Did the establishment of American Hunter damage Open class in any way? The answer is a resounding NO. What these have done is offer folks vehicles for participation or to continue participating. I have spoken with two gentleman that have moved this year from Open class using straps to Hunter because of physical problems. Once anticipates returning to Open eventually, the other will be shooting American Hunter from here on out. We have also seen many Open class shooters migrate to WFT. They are physically able to shoot that game and choose to do so but it hasn't kept anyone else from shooting Open or Hunter. Neither will UKHFT where it is tried.
I'm not asking any other club or AAFTA to change anything, period. But what I am doing is giving this game a fair shake with regard to new shooters. We've got both kids and adults here in Heflin that own HFT capable equipment. 90% are break barrel spring guns with either a fixed power AO scope or a low power variable. All they need is their rifle, some pellets and a suitable venue, nothing else.
There is one variable in the problem of getting people involved that UK HFT handles nicely and many overlook it's significance. It has an established following. It is a game that stands on it's own merits and is internationally recognized with clubs in several different countries, including but not limited to: England, Poland, Norway, the Czech Republic and the Netherlands. There may be more.
Why is it that some feel threatened whenever another game is discussed? I feel that my previous post as purposefully taken out of context in order for foment discord among readers of this forum. I believe that I carefully spelled out my intent to try and incorporate this style of shooting into what is already being done here in Heflin.
I currently have a 30 TDF set up for FT. Most of our local participation is in PCP Hunter and WFTF. There is no way I'm going to do anything to discourage these folks. I want them to shoot and enjoy themselves. I also want new folks to come out and play. This is discussed several times a year with the folks over and parks and recreation.
It will cost me less than $5 for a couple of cans of yellow or white spray paint. All I have to do is spray 15 targets within the current course that is in the field right now. That is what they will shoot for record. I can drive some stakes in the ground near the shooting pads for pegs. I can print off a few sets of rules and point folks to the website(s) for UK HFT. I'm also considering cutting the match fees in half for anyone wanting to participate in UKHFT to encourage participation.
So this begs the question: What is the underlying motivation for resistance to this discussion?
If you would only STUDY what happened in UK, you would see there are essentially NO breakbarreled springers being used, and the guns are about every bit as specialized and expensive as the FT ones.
I guess MY issue is likely due to your not truly understanding the UK scene, and thus using their game name over here for what you want, when there is important baggage attached to it you are unwilling to recognize. Get rid of the baggage and its NOT UKHUNTER anymore, simple as that.
I'm not saying the UK game is bad or evil, its just NOT compatible with Field Target as we know it. I feel what YOU are doing (an experienced FT shooter trying a different wrinkle would be more common than any newbie adopting the new game, but switching doesn't promote growth. WFTF has NOT grown the game over here, it just moved shooters into a smaller class, with zero growth.
I understand you are not (yet) openly claiming to be advocating this type of move for other clubs, yet I'm still compelled to point out the fallacy of some basic premises, because I've already seen the erosion UKHUNTER did to UKFT.
Not growing the game is not an option as far as I'm concerned.
August 5 2012, 11:20 PM
But I wonder what is so threatening?
What if this game explodes in popularity and doubles participation in outdoor airgun competitions? Is that something that would please you?
How exactly is it not compatible?
I'm sure there are those that aren't interested in growing the FT and that's fine.
Perhaps UK Hunter did erode the ranks of UK FT. So what? Seems to me that there was a need that wasn't be fulfilled by UK FT. If it was a better game then UK Hunter would not be popular.
Here's what I see.
We have an "Open Class" for both PCP and Piston. It was first here in the US, correct?
Then came the era of the "Harness"?
There was obviously some level of discontent, because WFTF came to be here in the US. It's a harder game than Open Class.
Then came US Hunter?
I'm not a FT historian. But this is what's being shot right now. If US Open Class FT was the "End All" of competitive airgun shooting using fall when hit targets, then there would not have been the need for any of these other games.
I play a game I like, one I have supported in spirit and deed for decades. When I see a guy openly advocating the diminishment of that very game in the name of "growth", I have a problem. If the game is changed to a point where I can no longer participate in it competitively, all so YOU can feel better for taking it to a new and different level, I feel MY game is being threatened by you, esp if deception is used.
I cannot shoot prone ... period! I don't WANT to shoot at targets with a scope that is giving a blurry sight picture at many distances ... maybe YOU hunt this way ... I don't. I LIKE the idea I can sit and shoot ... ruining the game by disallowing ALL sitting shots is abhorrent to me. I see no point to awarding a point for "face hits" on targets only 8 yards away that are the size of pieplates. I have seen the one point/two point scoring system firsthand, we played that for quite awhile in the early days ... all it does is ACCENTUATE the scores of the better players needlessly against the lower scoring ones. I LIKE the freedom of body positions FT allowed, though its being eroded lately, and feel its BAD to standardize matches by dictating exactly the distance and number of offhand and kneeling shots the course MUST have to be acceptable.
Sure, I guess it would be fine if another airgun game started up here and became popular, but I would for sure resist attempts at it being done deliberately at the expense kicking old guys like me out of the of the current Field Target game, esp from within.
The same advice I've been given in the past applies to you as well.
"Shoot what you want to, it's your club."
I guess I can state that I'm not trying to do away with US Hunter till I'm blue in the face and I'll still be accused of "Deception". That's a strong word. You're implying that I am lying.
That's fine. But I feel that being up front and talking about what is being experienced here in Heflin is they way to go. And I welcome the opposite opinion but would prefer it be based on something other than emotion.
US Hunter is keeping more and more shooters in the game and that's outstanding as far as I'm concerned. But some of us would like a challenge.
One could argue that LD's match does not conform to the traditional FT format either:
- Targets out to 65 yards
- Bells, instead of fall-when-hit targets
- Having to touch a stake from the (sometimes awkward) shooting position
- shooting at your own pace, even breaking for lunch during the macth
Yet, a bunch of FT shooters enjoy it... as the match does not take away from our game, and it's challenging fun!
So, I don't see what Paul is doing as necessarily taking away from our game at all.
In fact, it may serve as a recruiting tool, to introduce new shooters to regular FT.
(like hey, if you enjoy this, you may also like this other game we play...)
It was always a bit "different", and many different things were tried over the dozen years I hosted it. but believe it or not the "difference" was NOT a difference in the GAME of field target as I felt the true spirit of the game should be ... it was a difference compared to the ever changing and ever tightening ruleset of the AAFTA org.
The TRUE concept of Field target allowed significant latitude in course structure, equipment variety and shooting position dictates, and it was this variety and imaginative course setting that kept challenge and interest high for many of the shooters that had the chance to experience one or more of those matches.
If you were to ask some of the guys that attended quite a few of them, they would tell you there were pretty significant differences at times, you you could always count on a fairly challenging course with something for everyone, and always lots of fun after the main events were over for the day.
And there was NEVER a move to try to infringe on CASA, the local club, but rather it was a chance to expand shooting opportunities for those club members up for a bit more challenge and a huge campout. I am proud to say my matches helped open up viewpoints and improve the courses of some local matches and even more distant matches, by showing the term "level playing field" is a BAD one if you mean the ACTUAL playing field!
Yes, there were some innovations in target design, only to improve functionality or pique interest, and yes some were a bit farther than 55yds, but few felt these features DETRACTED from the event. The event was MEANT to be a sort of EXTREME Field target match, and they usually were. It was an event where ALL could learn something, and ALL could have some fun.
But, times change, and people change I guess. I gave it a good hard go, and now I'm done. When I started it, there weren't any others doing it .... but this way, but after awhile a few folks I know started doing similar things, so I feel good in hopefully giving a little impetus.
I think some folks are missing what Paul is trying to accomplish. By offering the OPTION to shoot a slightly different style of FT at THE SAME TIME as all the other styles on the same range, participation will have a better chance of increasing. Paul is not looking at dropping anything to offer UK Hunter. Only adding it as an option. If we can now show up for our monthly shoot and have yet another option of what kind of shooting we want to do that day I say we are better off for it.
This is typical LD tactics. He spews this crap like he knows what he is talking about and cries "WOLF!!!" as loud as he can so folks will run to see what's happening. He has no idea about anything UK FT related since he has never been there and he certainly knows nothing about the politics or the back stories in the UK FT scene or UK HFT, but he would have everyone believe he does.
You keep doing your thing and new shooters will come You are an asset to the game.
It looks like some fun. I watched the you tube videos on this....and it looked like something fun. We don't see too many new faces at the big matches....or atleast the ones that I have been to. I see the same old familar mugs.
I like the low power and hold over and no range finding thing offered here.
If I had a regular shooting ft club...meaning monthly and free shooting on the weekends...I would try it just to change things up a bit.
Self proclaimed shootinist sumbitch...there ever was almost!!
Its hard bein shootinst sum bitch...welp not its not.
started @ 227 compressor fills in 6/22/08
180 compressor fills and I have broke even
And aaain't it grrreaaat to be livinnn in the USA.
I never whacked a pigeon, starling, or sparrow that didn't deserve it!!!
1544 and countin....on pigeons..
starling count started 14--
I was surprised at how much fun I had. The guys were actually making fun of me for having so much fun.
I was also surprised at how easy it was to knock down targets with no range finding with the scope.
I'm a big guy and don't find the seated position particularly comfortable. But the unsupported prone was very stable, as were the supported standing and kneeling. Unsupported kneeling and standing were just like we shoot right now.
If there is enough interest, I will squad and award a class for the Alabama State Championship. There only needs to be three shooters.
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