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Seeing it is the slow season for many FT clubs .............

January 11 2017 at 1:19 PM
Bill Day  (Login dayjd2)
YF12

I would like to propose a question that I don't recall being asked before or have missed it if it has. When a important competition takes place like a GP or National, the shooting order for each squad is always that the Hunter class always is requested to shoot first. Does anyone know the motivation for this order? Just something I've always wondered and can't seem to make any sense of it. Years back when I use to play the Bowhuner 3D game we always rotated the squad shooters at each lane so the same shooter wouldn't have to go first on every lane. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that but just wondering why the Hunter class always is requested to shoot first?


    
This message has been edited by dayjd2 on Jan 11, 2017 1:21 PM


 
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SeanM
(Login smcdaniel8190)
YF12

so you can't "cheat"

January 11 2017, 1:25 PM 

Hunter has 12x limitation while wft doesn't. And if you are in hunter you can typically take advantage of the markings on WFT scopes to see where they are shooting.

 
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Bill Day
(Login dayjd2)
YF12

Shawn, that's a a fair explanation but

January 11 2017, 2:15 PM 

many Hunter setups include a 5" or 6" objective wheel. Is it ok for the WFTF or Open shooters to see what the Hunter shooter dials in or is it just natural for hunter shooters to push the envelope? Of course most shooters know that the Hunter shooter can't objectively dial in a good number on 12x over 40 yards so why bother. LOL!


    
This message has been edited by dayjd2 on Jan 11, 2017 5:55 PM


 
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Scott Hull
(Login Scotchmo1957)
YF

What matters is the hit or miss, not the 12x vs 40x

January 12 2017, 3:06 AM 

Another shooter could watch a Hunter set their scope to 50yds. If the Hunter knocks it down both times, the estimate was good. The other shooter just got some useful information.

Anyone so inclined can read those BIG scope wheels. Ultimately, if a shooter (Hunter/Open/WFTF) trusts someone else's dope more than their own, I would not worry too much about it.


 
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Louis Bigelow
(Login LouisBigelow)
YF12

well, I know of 2 12x scopes that DO range accurate past 40 yards. NT

January 14 2017, 10:46 PM 


 
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Billy Dick
(Login ocedummy)
YF12

Another reason to allow higher power scopes in hunter.

January 12 2017, 11:16 PM 

So they don't have to go first all the time.......

 
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Tom Holland
(Login xbowsniper)
YF12

Re: Seeing it is the slow season for many FT clubs .............

January 11 2017, 1:36 PM 

Bill,

The reason that certain classes are slated to go first or last lies upon the ranging. Meaning that if an Open shooter or a WFTF shooter (PCP or Springer) are allowed to go first, there might be some inclination for unscrupulous individuals to "peek" at the better ranging capabilities of the above mentioned classes. This is why Hunter class is always first.

Tom Holland
Assistant Match Director
Eastern Suffolk Competitive Airgunners Association
( ESCAA)
Long Island NY


    
This message has been edited by xbowsniper on Jan 11, 2017 1:38 PM


 
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Bill Day
(Login dayjd2)
YF12

Good point Tom ........................

January 11 2017, 2:21 PM 

But if you have a three man squad with one hunter shooter going first what is preventing the other two from peeking at each other. Of course only the shooter that shoots last would have the "peeker" advantage available to them.

 
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lhd
(Login lhd)
AR&P

That silly!

January 12 2017, 12:14 AM 

It well known only the hunter guys cheat.

 
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nced
(Login SpringerEd)
YF12

LOL......any shooter dumb enough to use my marks deserves what he gets.

January 12 2017, 9:39 AM 

[linked image][linked image]

Just trying to add some levity! wink.gif


    
This message has been edited by SpringerEd on Jan 12, 2017 9:39 AM


 
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dan_house
(Login dan_house)
YC

I was squadded with Wayne Burns on Day 2 or the NV state match at Battel Mountain

January 12 2017, 1:09 PM 

Learned a LOT that day from Wayne....

But his scope wheel is setup similar to yours, with some kinda hieroglyphics that indicate what do dial in.

I thinks its (mostly) a great idea to have the hold/clcik data on the wheel, as it removes the need for a dope sheet. Downside I can see is the need for angle or windage data too (and maybe wayne and Ed have that coded into the glyphs on the wheel)



 
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nced
(Login SpringerEd)
YF12

For a HFT shooter limited to 12x and can't "click", it works OK for me!

January 12 2017, 5:44 PM 

As you mentioned, the setup is simply a "dope sheet on the wheel" that I even use for squirrel hunting. The symbols relate directly to the sharp focus point at different distances. The two +s are simply the near and far zero, a . means hold one lower dot on the kz, a stacked .-> means hold between 1st and second lower dot on kz.....so on and so forth.

Pretty useless for a "clicker" but for hunter class at 12x max it works well for me since I do get a better "read" than I do "eyeballin' it". The downside is that the marks are only good for one setup because any change in gun, tune level, scope mount throws the marks "outta kilter"!

 
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FireMarshal
(Login FireMarshal)
YC

Re: LOL......any shooter dumb enough to use my marks deserves what he gets.

January 13 2017, 1:47 AM 

Ed,

Judging by my scores, I could say the same thing and I actually have the yardages marked on my wheel. Nobody would want to copy my numbers.

Pat

 
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Scott Hull
(Login Scotchmo1957)
YF

Re: Seeing it is the slow season for many FT clubs .............

January 11 2017, 1:37 PM 

I suspect it's to prevent a Hunter Division shooter from gleaning any information by reading a squad mates high power scope wheel.

If so, it's an insulting way to determine order. That said, I don't mind going first, whether shooting Hunter or not.

 
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Bill Day
(Login dayjd2)
YF12

Scott, I agree for I too volunteer to shoot first more than not ...........

January 11 2017, 2:35 PM 

But it seems if we rotated the hunter shooter(s) might not feel like we are shooting first because others think we might cheat. It isn't exactly good shooter etiquette to be standing close enough to see the opponents wheel anyway.


    
This message has been edited by dayjd2 on Jan 11, 2017 5:56 PM


 
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nced
(Login SpringerEd)
YF12

Same here, I couldn't care less what order I shoot! nt

January 12 2017, 9:41 AM 


 
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Scott S
(Login Namba963)
YF12

Yes as stated above ... ranging advantages THO ?

January 11 2017, 2:24 PM 

What I personally like to do when squad mates open minded ... 2 man squads only
Is play the round doing LEAP FROG ( What i call it anyways )

Match starts and someone shoots first ( Don't matter who )
Then the second in squad shoots as is typical ... But
Starts the next lane basically creating a situation where the shooter once in his MOJO gets to shoot 2 lanes in sequence.

Being the squad mate shoots second after this ... he now go's first on the next lane getting his 2 lanes in a row got my MOJO rollin too chance.

The entire match squad mates do this jump until match is finished.


No one is alway under pressure of shooting first the whole match, BOTH get longer rest between shooting each lane.

Always felt the Ying / Yang evened out the mental advantage / disadvantage of the game.

Done this at Club and GP matches time to time and never heard of if being against any AAFTA rules.

Scott S

 
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Bill Day
(Login dayjd2)
YF12

There can be a disadvantage by going first ...........

January 11 2017, 5:52 PM 

Duh! When I have gone first on occasion I have shot the wrong targets first and lost 4 points very quickly. I have also witnessed other shooters do the same thing. One shooter who has won several Nationals lost two Nationals by doing a similar stunt. The last time was last fall in paw paw which he shot kneeling targets sitting on his bucket. I didn't witness that time but word got around. So unless you stay real focused and on top of your game going first can put a hurt on you. I'm thinking wftf and open shooters already know this so that's why they don't go first. ;>)


    
This message has been edited by dayjd2 on Jan 11, 2017 6:01 PM


 
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Tyler Patner
(Login Tpatner412)
YC

Brain farts are totally the fault of the shooter

January 11 2017, 8:01 PM 

And usually have nothing to do with shooting order. I think I can speak for everyone in saying we have all had them. Whether it's forgetting to dial your turret for a shot, getting out a revolution on your elevation, or shooting a target out of order. I've done all three of the above, only the first two are unique to open/wftf. But in all instances, it didn't matter what order I was shooting in. I just lost my concentration, simple as that.

To say that someone lost shots because they went first is an excuse for not paying attention/concentrating...simple as that.
Has nothing to do with class, experience level, shooting ability. It all comes down to being focused and in the moment.


I don't really mind going first in any instance. The only real disadvantage it poses is that on a course where there is some walking involved, you may come to the next lane and have to take a few seconds to calm the heart rate. Then again, you can always walk your stuff down to the next lane after you shoot and go back to score your fellow squad mates, that way you save some physical stress right before you shoot.

 
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Bob D.
(Login MB-BOB)
YF

Tyler, you touch on a REAL issue...

January 11 2017, 8:58 PM 

Tyler, you wrote, "The only real disadvantage it poses is that on a course where there is some walking involved, you may come to the next lane and have to take a few seconds to calm the heart rate."

This is the real issue (if there is an issue). Not so much when walking from lane to lane, but when finishing the last lane on a course and then walking to the first lane (1/4-3/8 mile), the Hunter Class shooters are ALWAYS challenged, because they always are the first shooter after the long walk. Now, at National matches, there sometimes is a (welcome) wait for the previous squad to clear any lane (after short walk or long).

But, Open and WFTF shooters do not experience the (same) need to lower heart rates, because they are granted a one-shooter-within squad buffer... always. If you are an Open Class or WFTF shooter, ask yourself if it's sporting -- not fair, just sporting -- to disadvantage an entire class of 20-30 shooters with this just to guard against one or two potential wandering eyes?

Further, given whatever pressure there is with timer use, I fully assume that some Open/WFTF shooters look at my large scope wheel to get preliminary readings, just to save time, especially in forced position lanes. (And I don't care if they do.)

As for walking ahead with your equipment... I was taught (and have witnessed and come to agree) that you keep your equipment with you at all times. Too many stories of shooters purposely tripping over fellow competitor's equipment left unattended. Mind game if nothing else.

Just me I suppose, but I like the rotational starting option noted above, where the "shooting conditions" (including heart rate challenges) are RANDOMLY shared among ALL shooters in the squad.
[linked image]
www.DallasFTclub.org


    
This message has been edited by MB-BOB on Jan 11, 2017 9:01 PM


 
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