|June 15 2017, 7:59 PM |
"Not required at AAFTA matches but there there are a number of benefits to using them."
When they become common at AAFTA matches I will quit feeling sorry for myself about 12 power scopes.
Charter member of Over The Hill Gang
Re: Not required......
|June 15 2017, 9:22 PM |
They are common enough that I used them as bracketing features at my last three big matches. Though I still use the cinder blocks and targets more since that is what I'm familiar with. At the Nevada match, some of the signs flopped around so much in the wind that some were not all that helpful as a bracketing feature. Most were very useful.
But that is one of a number of benefits to using them - placate the 12x shooters (without resorting to higher power scopes in Hunter Division).
Easier to find targets
Target shooting order is given by the numbers
|June 16 2017, 8:26 AM |
This was discussed on another forum recently. Many years ago I tried numbering lanes and targets and it was a waste of effort. No benefit whatsoever and more confusing for shooters and more work for me. Now hunter division guys say they can use them to bracket. Next some will want us to give them all of the target distances! The scores for hunter, open, and WFTF at our matches are so close that it is obvious that the hunter guys seem to range just fine without the added confusion and work of more signage. If it is a big deal for anyone they can shoot in a different division or, if available shoot in unlimited class.
Let's not lump all in one bag, Rich...
|June 16 2017, 9:20 AM |
The OP is the only one asking for target numbering (and not currently shooting Hunter rifle, BTW). Instead, a larger number of Hunter division shooters simply prefer that scope magnification be sufficiently scaled (more mag) to focus range find through-out the limits of the game.
Offering it, not asking for it.
|June 16 2017, 2:38 PM |
I made the print file available in my post. I asked for nothing in this thread.
|June 16 2017, 11:40 AM |
|This message has been edited by BradVanpool on Jun 16, 2017 11:31 PM|
|This message has been edited by Scotchmo1957 on Jun 16, 2017 11:55 PM|
|June 16 2017, 5:13 PM |
I really don't have an agenda. I am going to shoot whether there are signs or what the scope power limit is. I do use bracketing when possible (when the blocks are visible) on the long targets and the signs would make that easier.
So I do like your signs but but they will probably not improve my score.
Sorry if my first comment hijacked your thread.
Charter member of Over The Hill Gang
|June 16 2017, 11:44 AM |
I think it is funny that shooters that use 50x scopes that are capable of range finding to +- 12 inches at 55yds, who can click to hold their cross hairs dead center on the KZ every shot and can dial down the power to shoot are threatened by the possibility that the Hunter class may actually have a technique that allows them to range with some precision (+- 2-3yds) beyond 40yds. Even if we were given the target distances we still have to shoot at 12x and hold off. As is so often said in these type of discussions, what difference does it make, you are not competing against hunter class shooters anyway.
If anyone thinks bracketing is the answer, they should try it and see how effective it is. Scott is the only shooter I know that competes at the highest levels of the sport who effectively uses bracketing and he could and did compete at the same level before his interest in bracketing.
But to the real point of the post, target numbering. The last two matches I shot had numbered targets and I found them quite helpful. They clearly identify the shooting sequence of the targets, they are invaluable in allowing you to quickly locate the targets in a given lane and sometimes can allow you to glean wind information. All of which are pluses for "ALL" classes of shooters. Obviously the European FT shooters see some value in doing the same. As he pointed out the technique is not required and is up to the discretion of the MD. If you don't believe it adds value, don't use it.
I believe Scott was trying to pass on his experience with target numbering as opposed to some plot to allow the Hunter class some special advantage.
Jim in Sacramento
|Brad Vanpool |
|June 16 2017, 12:00 PM |
|This message has been edited by BradVanpool on Jun 16, 2017 10:25 PM|
Not directed at you Brad...
|June 16 2017, 6:14 PM |
we posted almost simultaneously. But in looking at your response I do have a couple of comments. You mention that Hunter class wins overall score a lot of the time. Our local experience is quite different even though we typically have 3 times as many Hunter shooters as Open/WFTF. A hunter class shooter has high overall score in perhaps 1 or 2 of about 21 local matches a year. I did look at some of your matches and I noticed that on average you have 10-15 Hunter shooters and 1-2 Open/WFTF shooters per match. Considering you have some of the top hunter shooters in the country participating in your matches I can understand why your Hunter shooters have many high overall scores in local matches.
I looked at the AAFTA Grand Prix scores since 2015 (when the hit % started to be indexed off the top score.) I found only 3 of 29 matches where a hunter class shooter shot or tied the highest score. Once by a shooter who has been banned from AAFTA competition for ethics issues and twice by your own Bob Dye at the ROT match where he had the highest score once and tied for highest score once. I think the perception that Hunter class is nipping at the heels of Open/WFTF shooters is somewhat exaggerated.
I do share your concern that continuing trends are causing matches to be set with higher and higher Troyer ratings, however I believe it is because of the advances in rifles and scopes in the open/WFTF classes. Who do you think was impacted most by the new AAFTA requirement that 30% of all targets in GP matches must be set at 40 or more yards, Hunter Class or Open/WFTF?
Jim in Sacramento
Not directed at you
|June 16 2017, 8:54 PM |
Hey Jim if you don't mind email me at firstname.lastname@example.org when I click your login it doesn't show yours. Thanks
|This message has been edited by BradVanpool on Jun 16, 2017 10:27 PM|
Jim, thanks for the thoughtful analysis...
|June 16 2017, 9:44 PM |
You're right to point out that the "classes" that shoot "High Score" vary wildly around the country. Indeed, we have a preponderance of Hunter Div. shooters in Texas.
Oddly, we have only a single regular Open PCP shooter, and just a couple WFTF PCP shooters, and one of them (nationally known) is having severe back issues at present... hasn't shot in nearly a year now. Both these situations are rare by comparison with other areas of the country, where Hunter shooters are the minority is some cases.
One of the benefits for me in travelling to Regional GPS in other areas, is the opportunity to watch -- and shoot with -- excellent shooters in the other divisions, since I see so little of it locally.
I fondly remember shooting Nats last year with Don Carkhuff and Vlad Berchanskiy, both OPEN Class shooters. Watching these friends and their shooting styles was a delight. Among other things, it convinces me that it is beyond pointless
to compare scores among the three divisions, as if they compete with each other. They don't, IMO.
Vlad and I
|June 17 2017, 5:01 PM |
Also fondly remember having the sincere pleasure of shooting with you too Bob. It was called a Fun day. I enjoy our sport immensely because it's so much fun and ya get to meet such nice folk.
Thank you for making the signage available to anyone that wants it. Your efforts are greatly appreciated.
|June 16 2017, 2:29 PM |
You said: "it was a waste of effort" ... "No benefit whatsoever" ... "more confusing for shooters" ... "more work for me" -
The first three claims are untrue. More work for you is true. Running a GP match is a huge amount of work. I don't mind a little extra work. If you want to go less, why don't you skip the lane signs as well. It would save you some more work. Less to "confuse" the shooters. NOT.
"Next some will want us to give them all of the target distances!"
Slippery slope? It's interesting how logical fallacies are presented so often in these arguments. To me, it's an indication the presenter is short on valid arguments.
"If it is a big deal for anyone they can shoot in a different division..." - No, they can't. And what does Division have to do with signs?
I'm guessing that you think signs are ALL about ranging. It's not. Telling the high scorer at a big GP match they lost because they shot the wrong target order. That's not fun. I'd gladly put in the extra work up front, rather than deal with target order instructions, and protests, and any resentment from competitors. Shoot the targets in their numbered order. Confusing? - NOT.
Are you concerned about the ranging aspect of providing signs? True, it will make bracketing easier for shooters. But they will still need to learn the skill to do it effectively. More shooters will probably take up the skill. Outside of AAFTA, range finding by means other than focusing is the norm for all HFT games. The match director can do a little bit of work to encourage Hunter shooters to learn a new skill that is directly related to the HFT game. I'm willing to put in a little extra effort.
If you really don't like signs, don't use them. I already put the work in, so I decided to share and make my solution available to others.
|June 16 2017, 4:59 PM |
Charter member of Over The Hill Gang
|This message has been edited by TerryVanpool on Jun 20, 2017 4:48 PM|
Interesting Topic ......................
|June 16 2017, 9:52 PM |
In this game (Field Target) Many have said that the game is typically won or lost on the positional lanes. The Open and WFTF classes can use shooting jackets. These benefit their standing and kneeling shots significantly. Maybe not every shooter that wears them but the ones that want to be in the top group of shooters will put the time in to be successful when wearing them. If the hunter class were allowed to use high power scopes they would still be much more disadvantaged just by the fore mentioned classes optional equipment they are allowed to use. Rarely does a Hunter shooter ever come in with the highest score and that is how the game was designed. Remember, The Hunter class was started to be a feeder class for the Open class. The bucket and bipods attracted many of the older shooters that just can't get up and down like many of the Open and WFTF have to. So saying "If you don't like Hunter class than change classes" isn't a option for that many Hunter class members. At this point in my life I've been beaten down enough over some these issues by special interests that I don't care anymore. I'm resolved to comply with the rules our Bog allows us to use and keep my blood pressure down. It is nice to adlib once in a while though!
Scott signs would benefit everyone and from one that's be known to shoot the wrong target on occasion I like the idea.
|This message has been edited by dayjd2 on Jun 16, 2017 9:57 PM|
I've grown to like them. They give the Match Director more "colors" on the pallet.
|June 16 2017, 3:12 PM |
Left to Right or Near to Far is okay, but numbers really give the MD more options to make the shooters pay attention. Paying attention is a very important part of shooting a gun. We all need to learn it to it's fullest. There is really no excuse for shooting the wrong number target, other than you were not paying attention.
The limit of a 12x scope in Hunter has many limitations that aren't addressed by the use of bracketing. Seeing where you hit on a miss is most important in my opinion. That is why I quit Hunter class after trying it, before I shot any GP matches. I could "carpenter guess" the distant close enough when the scope was mounted real low to the barrel... all targets were within one and a half mil dots... BUT,
Wind reading and holding steady are the main factors as far as I can tell in this game... So, I'm for the sign markers and making them all the same format.... for those MDs that want to use em.
MD, Ashland Air Rifle Range
|June 16 2017, 4:40 PM |
Behind the signs in Nevada was simple, anyone who shot Nevada last year can tell you target acquisition was incredibly challenging in that terrain, most people spent a solid minute or two just trying to find the target, pulling strings that lead to sage bushes offering little help. After seeing the pictures from Temecula I figured the target signs would solve that problem and I think they did just that. Scott your signs look great and I hope to see them become a staple at GPs and even local matches.