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How about a little Openess, Inclusion, and .......

August 12 2017 at 5:27 PM
Bill Day  (Login dayjd2)
YF12

the vision to grow out game as apparently the BOG shared prior to bringing the Hunter class to a trial year in 2006. Most of the hunter class today came from new shooters. Then they created to WFTF class and most of that class came from the open class. Clubs around the country have undertaken what the Bog asked them to do about field testing a trial class that has no connection to AFFTA. Two years ago this was started at clubs around the country. In most cases without no guarantee of a real affilation the unlimited / free style class has done pretty well.

Last year many of the Minutemen clubs (I believe we had 11 clubs) had a meeting and discussed not joining AFFTA in 2017. This was after the 2016 Nationals meeting clamity. A Cooler mind prevailed and we were asked to stick it out another year. I believe similar dissatisfaction was evident on the west coast also. I have asked this question a number of times ... Why can't we have a trial class at 2017 Nationals? What would it hurt? No one has ever answered this question. All we hear is it's got to be discussed. A similar discussion was undertaken at last years annual meeting and a vote was taken. Then after the Chairmen heard about it, it went to the back burner. Just before the 2016 minuteman meeting I had started a poll on the AFFTA forum… See Poll request below

Calling all AFFTA Clubs!!! ........................
by Bill Day » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:40 pm
Looking for member clubs that would like to see a 2017 trial class run con-currently with the AFFTA FT Schedule for 2017. This new class would incorporate all aids/rules of the present Open PCP class combined with the those of Hunter PCP class and WFTF PCP. Two and half months before the 2017 Nationals we take a formal poll to see who would like to continue the class. If we can come up with 2/3 of the paid member clubs in favor we will submit the vote to the BOG to make it a full time AFFTA class. This must be done at least 2 months prior to the 2017 National so the proxy votes can be sent out to all clubs. The name can be submitted as we tentatively propose the new class to AFFTA. In the meantime please consider a new name like may be 'Prohunter, Open freestyle, ect; or any idea that member clubs have. We need to find out if we have 2/3 of clubs that would be in favor of it first. So if you would not have a problem with it please respond as a member club only. For AFFTA rules state we need to poll the clubs and not the members. Just post to this topic the name of your AFFTA member club and Yes if you are for the trial class for 2017 or No if you do not want it. Please poll you club members for what they want. You should have at least 50% of you membership for it or against it. Thanks and please do cast your vote to give us all the full pluse of our AFFTA member clubs. Please get the word out to all member clubs about this proposal, We will end this poll November 30, 2016 and by then we should know if there is enough interest to make a proposal. Thank You!
I believe the vote ended with 20 clubs casting votes. 14 were for the new class and 6 were against it.


Of the clubs that voted we had 66% (The bylaw requirement) to go forward with a new trial class that was yet to be named. Again the Chairman denies it because not all the clubs voted and if they had it may of not ended with 66% of all clubs in favor. All clubs had the opportunity to vote and almost a month to talk to their clubs and do it. Why should the majority of the clubs be penalized because some clubs didn't care enough to vote???
I have a strong feeling that the clubs that didn't vote ... don't attend GP's and Nationals. They send in their $25.00 and hold one shoot a year to maintain membership ... but their votes count as much as those of us that travel thousands of miles each year to attend Grand Prix matches and Nationals.

The only thing I can guarantee anyone that takes the time to read this BS is that if something don’t change my club will not be signing on to AFFTA membership next year. Maybe that will make for a better place for everyone! I’m sure you’re all fed up with hearing me bitch about Openness, Inclusion, and what I see as problems with our governing body! Believe it or not I don’t enjoy it either!




    
This message has been edited by dayjd2 on Aug 12, 2017 5:32 PM


 
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Brad Troyer
(Login bradtroyer)
YC

I have been out of the loop on

August 12 2017, 10:10 PM 

What the new unlimited class would be. Could you list what the new rules would be for the Unlimited class vs the current hunter class?


Brad Troyer,
brad@airguns.net
www.airguns.net


 
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Frank in Fairfield
(Login MRodDude)
YF12

I Am Not Sure But

August 13 2017, 9:09 AM 

From what I hear Brad the new class will allow:
Unlimited scope usage, power, clicking, etc.
Rangefinders.
Attached bi-pods for shooting.

Again, this is just rumors I have heard.

Do not quote me.

Stay safe

 
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Scott Hull
(Login Scotchmo1957)
YF

It's sorta like these:

August 13 2017, 1:27 PM 


 
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Richard Bassett
(Login rich177)
YF

Poor horse!

August 13 2017, 2:50 PM 

We are certainly beating it badly. Seriously though, we really need to identify what we are talking about. We are allowing an "unlimited" class at our matches. Basically it is everything that is permitted in the Open Division AND the Hunter Division, nothing more. I strongly oppose having range finders on the course. Use of any power scope would be permitted so range finders are somewhat redundant. Also they remove a skill that is a major part of field target. Having range finders is just like giving out the distances. If we do that it opens up a big can of worms.
As far as having an "unlimited" division at the Nationals this year, it might just be too late. That club has done most of its planning and it would not be right to force them to change at this point in time. Having an "Unlimited" Division next year would be something that could certainly work if the specifics of the Division rules could be established. Everyone knows I don't really want more Divisions but I would support this in spite of my feelings.

 
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Bill Day
(Login dayjd2)
YF12

I am in somewhat agreement with you .............

August 13 2017, 7:31 PM 

on the Rangefinders Mr. Bassett. It is true that rangefinders are a lot cheaper that a big scope which would lean towards Rangefinders .... but I would not want to see range finding numbers being discussed on the course. Not that the numbers aren't discussed between some competitors now but I would hope it be done discreetly and only after all members of the squad has shot the lane.

 
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Brad Troyer
(Login bradtroyer)
YC

In the traditionals sense,

August 14 2017, 7:56 AM 

That isn't really field target. By the unlimited rules, I can bring out anything I want and shoot, including a bench rest.

Maybe we should consider scaling back the hunter class to what it was originally intended and encourage new shooters to shoot field target under the existing rules? No?

Here is the problem I see looming down the road, the unlimited class will allow jackets, slings, harnesses, and all manner of supports for the body and will become basically a benchrest class. The difficulty of the courses will increase to the point that it will drive away new shooters because of the difficulty including the current WFTF and Open shooters.

Don't think that won't happen? It already has. The jackets and harnesses have increased the typical difficulty from 28-32 to 34-36. In 1999 the AAFTA Nationals were held in Florida and the three courses that year were 31, 32, and 33 difficulty and the top PCP score was 115 out of 120. Only a few shooters used jackets and only one shooter had a harness and he was shooting Piston class. If your put out a course like that at a Nationals now you would have complaints that it was too easy and you would have a bunch of shooters bunched up at the top of the scoreboard.


Look, if you want to shoot Hunter Class with the buckets and bipods then shoot it. Don't worry that your scores are not the top scores in the match. If you want high mag scopes, range finding, and clicking then buck up and shoot in the open class and shoot within the Field Target rules.

Brad Troyer,
brad@airguns.net
www.airguns.net


 
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JimC
(Login 22Jim)
YF

Thank you Brad for being honest,

August 14 2017, 12:15 PM 

your response is exactly what many of us have suspected all along, you and some others believe hunter class field target isn't really field target it's a bone tossed to new shooters to see if some of them will step up to the true field target divisions Open and WFTF. Why would you be worried if unlimited shooters shoot higher scores, you won't be competing against them anyway, or at least, that is what you tell the hunter shooters.

You think dumbing down the Hunter division is going to help grow the sport? I don't understand the logic of saying if you want to use good equipment then step up and shoot Open or WFTF. I guess you fail to realize that there are a lot of people who can't or won't participate in field target if they have to sit on the ground, scrunch up in a ball strap themselves in and shoot. If that is how you feel then I would suggest you just eliminate the Hunter Division it will give the Hunter shooters the incentive they need to start their own organization.

Since I first started to think about the unlimited class my opinion has changed quite a bit. I originally thought that Unlimited Class would be the class that every one would move to so they could shoot the best scores. But the more I thought about it the more I believe that it will become the home for novices, handicapped, old geezers and average shooters who do not have the skills or time to invest in competing in the other classes. It will give this group of people an opportunity to come to a match and actually knock down more targets than they miss, adding to the enjoyment of the sport and helping to attract and keep new shooters. It will become the division you always wanted hunter class to be.

I honestly believe the best shooters will remain in the traditional divisions. These people come to compete, they are not looking for some easy path to the top, they want to pit their skills against the best and see how they fare. Will a few people try and cherry pick the Unlimited Class, probably but who cares. If there is a shoot off every week for the unlimited top spot among five shooters who clean the course so be it. I suspect that you will see most of those shooters move to the traditional classes where they will actually compete against the best and be challenged.

I guess you and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum of where we would like to see the sport of field target go in this country. I respect you, your abilities and all you have done for the sport but we just see things differently.

Jim in Sacramento

 
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Scott Hull
(Login Scotchmo1957)
YF

Re: In the traditionals sense,

August 14 2017, 2:25 PM 

"By the unlimited rules, I can bring out anything I want and shoot, including a bench rest."
I did not see benchrests in any of the Freestyle rule charts.

"Here is the problem I see looming down the road, the unlimited class will allow jackets, slings, harnesses, and all manner of supports for the body and will become basically a benchrest class."
Open Division already allows those things. Is it basically a "benchrest class"? Maybe. As far as accuracy, the top shooters are already shooting at the limits of their barrels accuracy. Range finders and bipods will not likely increase their scores.

"The difficulty of the courses will increase to the point that it will drive away new shooters because of the difficulty including the current WFTF and Open shooters."
The Freestyle trials have been going on for a couple of years and that argument has not played out. In fact, the opposite has happened - there are many that shoot BECAUSE they are allowed those options.

"The jackets and harnesses have increased the typical difficulty from 28-32 to 34-36."
By "typical", I assume you mean average course difficulty. I have run a bunch of the bigger matches on the West Coast, including Freestyle, and rarely exceed 32 average difficulty. I usually keep it in the 28-30 average. The trick is to increase the SD. That helps the beginning shooters while keeping the elite shooters from bunching up at the top.

The unsanctioned Freestyle trials have been running for a couple of years and the fears that some presented as arguments did not materialize. An official/sanctioned GP trial will likely have the same non-destructive results. If all the fears did come to pass in that one year trial, than reevaluate it's continuance.

What is "really field target"? That's for us to define. We are not all "traditionals". Do we want to be bound by tradition, or bound by logic.

 
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Paul Porch
(Login paulporch)
YF12

Scott, they just had a freestyle division at the Crosman All American

August 14 2017, 2:58 PM 

In NY. It was contested by 6 people. An award was given out fir first place but I guess no standing in the Grand Prix.

I would venture that there will be more competitors next year if they have the class again.

 
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Bill Day
(Login dayjd2)
YF12

Paul, No doubt if it were a sanctioned AFFTA class .........

August 14 2017, 4:43 PM 

That is the biggest obstacle for many shooters that want to try it.
There is no good reason not to have a Freestyle trial class at the Nationals this year. We have over 2 1/2 months to initiate a trial class. Maybe AFFTA would rather see those of us that want to grow FT go on our own because they don't seem to have the interest on growing it.

Jim and Scott you guys presented strong presentations for this Freestyle / unlimited cause!


    
This message has been edited by dayjd2 on Aug 14, 2017 4:48 PM


 
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Scott Hull
(Login Scotchmo1957)
YF

I looked at the stats for that match.

August 14 2017, 8:50 PM 

Most of the Hunter Division shooters were using higher mag scopes turned down to 12x. Assuming Freestyle was a sanctioned GP class, I suspect some of those shooters would decide to shoot Freestyle instead.

 
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Paul Porch
(Login paulporch)
YF12

I agree Scott....

August 14 2017, 9:06 PM 


 
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Bob D.
(Login MB-BOB)
YF

I disagree, Scott...

August 14 2017, 11:27 PM 

You draw unsupported (unsupportable) conclusions. Hunter class has always been shot with many scopes of higher capacity than 12x. Doesn't mean anyone is immediately itching to switch... to anything.

Just me, I guess, but I have no desire to shoot freestyle.

No desire to shoot Open, or WFTF, either. Never have, likely never will. So those chauvinistic traditionalists thinking I should graduate to a "real" class can simply wait for a long while...
[linked image]
www.DallasFTclub.org


    
This message has been edited by MB-BOB on Aug 14, 2017 11:32 PM


 
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Scott Hull
(Login Scotchmo1957)
YF

What conclusion?

August 15 2017, 3:13 AM 

What "conclusion" are you referring to?

You said:
"You draw unsupported (unsupportable) conclusions...."

FYI: A suspicion is not at conclusion.

 
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Paul Porch
(Login paulporch)
YF12

Woah! I have an idea.. let's eliminate a non AAFTA class. The one that thinks that

August 15 2017, 7:07 AM 

open and WFTF are "real" classes of field target!

I did not choose open class for me because of it being a real class. I chose it as I was too unsteady in hunter with the bipod and bucket. I was way more steady in open aclass as I am still flexible at 65 years young...

I want to be competive so there I sit. Literally...lol

The thought that open or WFTF are, to use another word, "elite" does not hold water.

Hunter is just as much a competive class as others. So I offer the suggestion that the class of people that think open or WFTF are real classes over hunter be eliminated...

 
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Johnnie
(Login DRAGON-64)
YF

I Would Switch to Freestyle From Hunter

August 15 2017, 7:51 AM 

Probably the only option that would get me to trade my 12X for a 32X.


    
This message has been edited by DRAGON-64 on Aug 15, 2017 1:14 PM


 
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bradtroyer
(Login bradtroyer)
YC

You missed the point of my post

August 15 2017, 7:44 AM 

Several reasonable arguments however my point is that the natural progression of any competition is to push the limits. Right now you have newer shooters getting into hunter and it is competitive. Good. But the I see the potential for the unlimited class going that direction. As more experienced shooter move up or move to that class the scores will increase to the point that match directors will feel the need to make the courses harder to "challenge" the top shooters in unlimited. That will intern make it less fun for the newer shooters in standard Hunter.

It has happened, the jackets and straps started out this same way and the scores increased and the course difficulties increased and we are where we are now. You can argue that it won't happen but it always does. Competitive shooters will always look for ways to increase their scores and will do whatever they can to do that.

That is my concern.

And, there isn't anything in the freestyle rules, that I could see, that prohibits a shooter from bringing a shooting bench out and using it as long as he uses a bipod on the rifle.

Brad Troyer,
brad@airguns.net
www.airguns.net


 
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Héctor Medina
(Login HectorMedina)
YF

IF you are worried about benches, then

August 15 2017, 10:52 AM 

you "don't get it".

Just think, Brad, what it would mean to have the timer running and you fighting the legs of your foldable bench.
¿Did you ever see the Groucho Marx skit with the ironing board?

wink.gif

I find your arguments a little confusing.

You talk about tradition, but if tradition, as I understand it (related to history), was to prevail, FT would be shot EXCLUSIVELY with harnesses. We have to remember that the harness was invented by an American Varmint Hunter that wanted the ability to take 300 + yards shots and still be able to move without hauling a shooting platform behind the pickup truck.

And that was over 35 years ago. BEFORE WFTF was even born as such.

That we, as Americans, failed to stand up to the Brits and are, more and more caving in to the" Pure Target Shooters" in Europe is one of the problems in FT.

IF MD's didn't hold this idea that the fact that someone cleaned a course is bad, perhaps we could ALL sleep better.

Of all the MD's I know (and I know quite a few here in the US and abroad) only TWO have publicly published they would welcome someone cleaning a course.

In serious terms, the ideal course (for the group of shooters at hand) would be one where at least one person came within 1 point of cleaning the course.

That means that the course was hard enough to test the limits of all shooters to its fullest.

Those courses where the high score comes at 10% under the possible score are good examples of bad designs (again, for the shooters at hand).

So, if some Unlimited shooters clean the course, the potential for a nice, thrilling and interesting shootoff will be there.

Is this more work for the MD's? Probably. But I know of only a handful of MD's that set tie breaker lanes or use some other mechanism to solve ties than the TRADITIONAL shootoff.

And I know of no FT shooter that doesn't enjoy seeing a good shootoff.

As usual, JMHO




HM

 
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Paul Porch
(Login paulporch)
YF12

Hector, I like Will Piatt's idea for a shoot off. At our club match a few months ago we

August 15 2017, 11:08 AM 

had ties for 1st and 3rd in open. He produced a Daisy Red Rider that he had removed the sights on. We shot at a can on a stick at about 18 yds to start.

Talk about taking the shooters out of their comfort zone of high end PCP shooting! Hey it's a springer too.

This proved to work well and we had a blast as well. All watching had a good laugh too.

 
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