I had to give the scriptures with the illustrations
PHIL = thank you Char, for the response. You made me smile! You sort of remind me of my aunt who always threatened to 'chew my ears off'! heheh... She was great!!
Char = I will take that as a compliment
PHIL = Char, I know it is frustrating to try and explain our personal views on these boards, but part of that is the medium itself... it is rather limited and, for those who manage to communicate on it and still become friends, it is a blessing. I hope you won't let my disagreements prevent us from being friends!
Char = I agree, I have met many people and have formed a number of very long lasting friendships over the years. One fella I bump into from time to time, I have known since I started on the net.
Char>>"Lets see if I can get what I mean across without all the scriptures etc.... When we were under the Law, we could not keep it,..."
PHIL = The 'we' in your statement... would you say that would include you? Were you ever 'under the law'? I ask this to help me understand what you have said above.
Char = YES! Most definitely! When I said we I was referring to the entire human race. I was under the law of sin and death.
I believe that we ALL are 'under the law'... let me clarify that... The phrase, "under the law" can be taken two ways:
1) Under the AUTHORITY of the law or...
2) Under the PENALTY of the law
Char = I can agree with both of your statements and see where both would apply.
PHIL = First, WHICH LAW? The Ten Commandments. -- NOT THE MOSAIC LAW. (I know that most cannot/do not separate those laws in their minds....I do) The SACRIFICES are no longer required of a Christian... Jesus is our sacrifice!
Char = I agree that the sacrifices are no longer required period, all we have to do is look to the East to see that they no longer are performing sacrifices for atonement.
Matthew 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Char = Mosaic Law, the law of sacrifice and atonement is complete, it was complete in Christ on the cross. Gods wrath for sin to that point, was poured out on Him. (Is 53) BUT, the LAW has not passed away in the sense that it is abolished, we know according to scripture that it still applies to anyone who is alive. Jesus states this clearly in Matthew that He did NOT come to destroy the law OR the prophets but, to FUFILL them. He fulfilled the requirement of the penalty of the Law, which was sin, which required death. BUT, during the Mosaic Law period, animal sacrifices were offered in specific manners as a shadow of the things to come, including the purging of heaven, where sin first occurred. (Hebrews 9)
Char = For the sake of understanding
. The definition of Mosaic Law to see if we are on the same page.
DEFINITION: The law that, according to the Old Testament, God gave to the Israelites through Moses. The Mosaic law begins with the Ten Commandments and includes the many rules of religious observance given in the first five books of the Old Testament. In Judaism, these books are called the Torah, or the Law. (Dictionary of Cultural Literacy).
PHIL = My viewpoint: I believe that we are ALL under the AUTHORITY of the law. I believe that what it says, it says to all. I believe that the Ten Commandments are God's definition of RIGHTEOUSNESS. I believe they reflect 'the way' He expects us to love Him and our neighbor. "The Way" He expects us to live! I believe that the first 4 commandments, show us HOW He wants and expects us to worship and love Him. The last 6 show us how He wants and expects us to love one another. God is love. His LAW,(The Ten Commandments) is a law of love! They were/are summed up in the New Testament... Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it,... These TWO Commandments are a brief 'summation' of the TEN. I do not believe that 'summing up' in any way, relieves us from the obligation to OBEY the TEN.
Char = Do you not believe that Jesus gave us the two as the "Royal Law" because they do hold all ten within them? When I consider the two, if I had to put everything I know into two sentences and still fit it into Christianity.... Love. Love is the one thing that is common to both that encompasses all the commandments, Jesus just divided the one into God and Man. Love God with all your might, all your being and love your neighbor as yourself. You would never covet, steal, murder, cheat etc... from yourself and you would never have another god IF you do as these two commandments state.
PHIL = I believe that to break them is to SIN, and to fall from GRACE. (Grace being His unmerited pardon) I believe that to be under the PENALTY of the law (The wages of sin) is to be guilty of BREAKING THEM and having that penalty, (DEATH) hanging over one's head. I equate that with not being UNDER GRACE. We ALL STILL SIN. But, for Christians, if and when we sin, we have an advocate with the Father! We can go directly TO the Father, through our High Priest, Jesus, the Christ!
Char = I believe we are in agreement for in part here Phil, might be using a few words differently but, same meaning or intent. And yes, we all still sin, myself included, when I say all, I am included in that all for reference. lol! I am NOT perfect in the flesh and wont be until the Judgment Day where we receive the Glorified body. Jesus paid NOT ONLY for the sins of the world up to and including His death but, those of us who were afar off and our future sins. That said, to touch on this one issue. Grace is NOT a ticket TO sin
it is in those times when we fall short of the glory of God that we need and have an advocate with the Father, as you said and I fully agree with that statement. The times we fail the test and it comes back around again and again until we do pass it, in those times, we need the only advocate to the Father. That said lol! I also believe that it is not in our NEW nature, being a NEW creation in Christ, old things have passed away (2Cor 5:17)
I do not believe we have to consciously remind ourselves NOT to sin, that it becomes more and more second nature to do what is right, according to Gods ways/His Spirit in us and NOT the ways of the flesh. We get more and more of the flesh on the cross the longer we walk with Him and more of the Mind of Christ. But, it is a race that lasts an entire lifetime.
Char = Here is the one part I believe we are not in agreement with or maybe we are? Falling from Grace
. Lucifer received a name change when he fell from grace. I think the one way to fall from Grace would be to commit the ONLY unpardonable sin. Matthew 12:31-32 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Char = Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, to take the things of God and give glory to Satan for them, to elevate him, or power to be over or greater then God or God's power manifested through the Holy Spirit
. In Matthew we had the example of healings, deliverances etc
being made manifest by the Power of the Holy Spirit and the Pharisees were giving credit to Satan. This is the only Sin that can not be forgiven in this lifetime or the next.
Char = I also believe you can fall OUT of Grace but not fall FROM Grace by sin. Out of Grace would be to sin and NOT be willing to repent or seek forgiveness and that sin can separate us from God
If I understand Falling from Grace correctly, the only example I can think of was Lucifer to Satan. And there is no redemption for him or the other angels that went with him. Galatians discusses one who has fallen from Grace but, it is one who attempts to keep the Law through outward or fleshly means and not according to the Sacrifice of Christ AFTER they entered into the NEW COVENANT. They backslid into DEAD WORKS. One cannot attempt to be justified in Christ AND by the Law, Mosaic, Ten Commandments etc
for their were NONE righteous in the earth, none could keep the Law and that is why we needed Christ. It is through Christ we are set free from the bondage of sin and death and our own means of trying to reach God or to please Him cause we cant in our flesh. Our own works are as filthy menstral rags before the Lord. (Is 64:6)
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage
. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing
. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace
. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. 7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. 11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.
Char = Paul speaks of substituting the Law for Grace in attempts to make ones own way. At the time of Galatians, they were getting entangled with doctrines and becoming confused, to circumcise or not to circumcise, they were told they must do this as a part of the law, a covenant with God. BUT, this was the OLD Covenant and now there was a better way, the NEW Covenant through Christ, that no longer required a cutting away of flesh but, a cutting away of stone, a heart of stone turned to a heart of flesh and having ones heart circumcised. Being inwardly cut instead of outwardly of the flesh. And thus becoming a Jew inwardly. But, to turn BACK to the Law, Christ's sacrifice, His life would NOT profit them.
Romans 2:25-29 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision
. Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God
PHIL = I know that some, (and you may be one who believes this) think that we cannot KEEP THE LAW. Well, The Israelites didn't... but, I don't believe they 'couldn't', I just believe they WOULDN'T. To me, that is two very different things. Can WE, in this modern-day era, KEEP THE LAW? I believe we CAN. (IF WE WILL) "couldn't and wouldn't... can't and won't"... two different things, at least from my POV.
Char = The Israelites could not KEEP the LAW any better then any of us today can, they also did not have the Spirit of God dwelling in them to guide them. Their inherit Nature was TO SIN, as it is with every child born of the flesh. The old me, could NOT keep the Law, I believe I was guilty of breaking EVERY Commandment, yes, every commandment. Paul is a man I can greatly relate to in many manners. Before Christ, I was a very different person then I am today, to the Glory of God. I would also say this, Paul was a man who could NOT keep the Law and still messed up as a Christian, as I said, I greatly relate to this man
I dont believe I CAN keep the Law in my own strength, I do know that there are times, like when I am having a bad day at work, I can be short with people but, I am also quick to go back to them, make NO EXCUSES for what I did and just say I am sorry for whatever it was that I did and ask their forgiveness. Not just say I am sorry but, to actually humble myself and seek their forgiveness. I dont think the Israelites could keep the Law based on the same reason people today can not keep the Law either. WE (me included) are all born with a sinful nature. It takes the second birth to hear God and see God/Kingdom of God, ears to hear and eyes to see with. I see this clearly in Romans as Paul writes about this very subject.
Romans 7:4b The law no longer holds you in its power, because you died to its power when you died with Christ on the cross. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, you can produce good fruit, that is, good deeds for God. 5 When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced sinful deeds, resulting in death.
6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died with Christ, and we are no longer captive to its power. Now we can really serve God, not in the old way by obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way, by the Spirit. 7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is evil? Of course not! The law is not sinful, but it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8 But sin took advantage of this law and aroused all kinds of forbidden desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. 9 I felt fine when I did not understand what the law demanded. But when I learned the truth, I realized I had broken the law and was a sinner, doomed to die. 10 So the good law, which was supposed to show me the way of life, instead gave me the death penalty. 11 Sin took advantage of the law and fooled me; it took the good law and used it to make me guilty of death. 12 But still, the law itself is holy and right and good. 13 But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my doom? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God's good commandment for its own evil purposes. 14 The law is good, then. The trouble is not with the law but with me, because I am sold into slavery, with sin as my master. 15 I don't understand myself at all, for I really want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do the very thing I hate. 16 I know perfectly well that what I am doing is wrong, and my bad conscience shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 But I can't help myself, because it is sin inside me that makes me do these evil things. 18 I know I am rotten through and through so far as my old sinful nature is concerned. No matter which way I turn, I can't make myself do right. I want to, but I can't. 19 When I want to do good, I don't. And when I try not to do wrong, I do it anyway. 20 But if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing it; the sin within me is doing it. 21 It seems to be a fact of life that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love God's law with all my heart. 23 But there is another law at work within me that is at war with my mind. This law wins the fight and makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin? 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.
Char = When Paul was out there executing the Christians, he really thought he was doing right and good! But, he soon found out he was shedding innocent blood and was totally outside of the will of God. When he was drawn by the Spirit and experienced Christ himself, he became a NEW Creation, all things old that he had done, his old nature, it all passed away. He was given a new nature, and was in the process of having his mind renewed to the mind of Christ. In verse 24 he takes it all home, that without Christ, it is hopeless, he was dominated by sin but, the answer is Jesus Christ. Romans 8 helps finish off this thought
. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3-4 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Char = Again, based on what Paul states here, I dont think anyone could keep the law based on the sinful nature that existed in us until the cross & resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Phil = God Bless you, Char. Thank you for sharing your views on these things and for being patient with me and allowing me to share how I see them.
Char = God Bless you too Phil! And thank you for sharing your views and thoughts, I dont think we are far off at all in what we believe.
Phil = I will have more comments in another message.
Char = I will look forward to them!
I left work early today and came home, sick right now
A gal at work brought it in to us all and I was the first to get it, others arent feeling well today either
I kept pushing myself, three more days, then just two more days, then just one more day
and this morning I didnt even want to get up but, if I am not there, it is chaos! LOL! Literally! So I said, I am here till lunch then gone, I will come in on Saturday for a couple hours to finish what needs to be done from today. Boss said no problem. So I been sleeping most of the afternoon.