Occasionally, I hear someone mention the 'plan of God'... I've also seen that phrase in written literature... what does it mean?

Does God have a 'plan'?

I went to an Amway meeting once and after sitting through the presentation, the Amway person told us that if we wanted to be wealthy, we had to have a 'plan'... and not only have one, we had to WORK our plan...

Is God working His plan?

What is the Plan of God?

Phil
The LORD hath done great things for us; whereof we are glad. Psalm 126:3 (KJV)

Zero Response*
Because of limited time, I have chosen to go back to the beginning and bring forward some topics that originally received NO RESPONSE.

If you have time, please re-read these threads and see if you have any comments.

Other 'zero-response' threads will also be brought forward.

Phil

"Now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. Yet each one in his own classification: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then the final classification, when Christ delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For Christ must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For God has put all things in subjection under the feet of Christ. But when the Father says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that the Father is excluded who put all things in subjection to Christ. When all things become subjected to the Father, the Son Himself will also become subject to this One who subjected all things to Him. This is so that God the Father may be the ALL IN ALL." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).


ALL in ALL in God the Father....that's the key I have found there.


lee

`


Besides being the friendliest, purest, wisest Man to ever Walk this Earth,
He was by far the most Obedient!!

He is truly a role model for one and all, having never asked for anything
more than He Himself would Give.

QUOTE: When all things become subjected to the Father,
the Son Himself will also become subject to this One
who subjected all things to Him. <<<<<

JESUS: Not My Will, Father, but Yours be Done.


i love You sooooo much, Lord YESHUA!!!! {{{{{{{ Hugs }}}}}}}


P.S. Nice Board y'all have here.

Forever In Him!

J * T!

When we picture God we should see Him as one that is ALL knowing (Omniscient), All powerful (Omnipotent), and present everywhere (Omnipresent). In a few words the best I could explain is that God DOES INDEED have a plan. His plan is for mankind to enjoy His creation while walking in fellowship with Him.

However because He is God, and His very nature does not allow Him to force people to walk with Him in His FOREKNOWLEDGE and PERFECTION He took a risk and gave the man He created a FREE WILL to choose whether they should walk with Him OR to walk in their own way. This He did when He spoke to Adam and Eve in the Garden. He said..

Gen 2:16-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." (NIV)

IOW here is where God gave the man the FREE WILL to choose what he wanted to do. Either to walk with God OR walk in SEPARATION FROM GOD. We know the choice Adam and Eve made and every man born of a man and a woman since has inherited the sinful nature. But......

God's plan was NOT THWARTED because God in His Grace, provided the Way from eternity that His Son should incarnate at the chosen time in order to redeem man and make it possible for fellowship with God to be restored by accepting His GIFT OF GRACE through faith. He KNEW from eternity past that man WOULD CHOOSE to do the opposite of what he OUGHT TO DO, (sin) so His ONLY SON "BEGOTTEN" OF THE FATHER came to redeem man from the consequence of sin (eternal punishment).

That being said, God ALSO KNOWS from eternity past WHO would accept the GIFT OF GRACE and who wouldn't. Those whom He knew HE CALLED, are HIS SHEEP, the ELECT. Those who reject the Grace of God as offered have chosen FREELY their own path that leads to the destruction. Unfortunately, this path is chosen by the many.

Thank God .....His plan will NOT BE THWARTED.







“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”~~~~Edmund Burke

Condensing God's Plan in as few words as possible...

Nucc says, >>"His plan is for mankind to enjoy His creation while walking in fellowship with Him."

Huh? Is that it? Is that all?
Interesting! That certainly does 'condense' it down... but, how can that be? How can it be so... simple?

Isa 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

That language sounds like it's referring to what God has in store for us... could THAT be part of "God's Plan"?? I think so... and, for me, that sounds like trying to condense it down might be a little difficult.

But, as always, JMO...
Phil

P> Huh? Is that it? Is that all?
Interesting! That certainly does 'condense' it down... but, how can that be? How can it be so... simple?

N> It is that simple, I believe Phil... God has a plan for them that believe. His perfect plan can only be completed for those that freely accept the gracious gift of eternal life "HIS WAY". IOW accept the gift AS IT IS OFFERED.

We cannot conceive of God's plan now because of our sinful nature. Our sinful nature far too often convinces us to reason as we OUGHT NOT TO REASON. Our sinful nature is blurred by self. I often think, IF ONLY my nature WASN'T blurred by self sin how I would see more clearly the awsome glory of God BUT in this world I have to accept that it is not time.


1 Cor 13:9
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, (NIV)

1 Cor 13:12
12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. (NIV)




“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”~~~~Edmund Burke

Gods plan is to bring man into full sonship that they will minister Love and Truth to all creation....fullfilling Gods will.


"Now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. Yet each one in his own classification: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then the final classification, when Christ delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For Christ must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For God has put all things in subjection under the feet of Christ. But when the Father says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that the Father is excluded who put all things in subjection to Christ. When all things become subjected to the Father, the Son Himself will also become subject to this One who subjected all things to Him. This is so that God the Father may be the ALL IN ALL." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).


Created in the Image of God as the Father declared.An what the Father declares shall not be undone.....even by mans imagination of a victorious enemy an so forth.


lee

Hi Lee

I'm not convinced from this scripture that Paul is viewing this meaning that ALL will be saved Lee mainly because that would ignore FREE WILL CHOICE.

There were some in the church at Corinth that believed and were teaching a doctrine that there was NO resurrection from the dead.

1 Cor 15:12-13
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. (NIV)

Now we MUST UNDERSTAND that Paul is addressing "BELIEVERS" but believers that are teaching a false teaching. Paul says clearly, that IF there is no resurrection then the "apostles" would be false teachers.

1 Cor 15:15-16
15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. (NIV)

I believe Paul was stressing the importance TO BELIEVERS that if they didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead they would ALSO be ETERNALLY LOST.

1 Cor 15:17-18
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. (NIV)

So what I believe Paul says is that Christ is the FIRSTFRUITS of those believers who will rise from the dead. He doesn't say that there will no longer be any LOST. While it is true that Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of ALL mankind, according to the context of ALL the Scriptures this redemption is ONLY APPLIED to them that believe.

1 Cor 15:20-23
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. (NIV)

At the endtime ALL the kingdoms of THIS WORLD, and their authority and power WILL BE destroyed and put UNDER HIS RULE and finally to the Father.



1 Cor 15:24-25
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (NIV)

The final enemy will be death. IOW no longer will people die.

1 Cor 15:26
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. (NIV)

Finally, after ALL things are put under Christ, then ALL THINGS will be under God.

1 Cor 15:27-28
27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (NIV)































“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”~~~~Edmund Burke

in what's being said in the scripture than the words themselves.So that no matter what language the scriptures are written in that need an interpeter and of coarse all of us would claim the Holy Spirit as our interpeter....but if that were so....the division of the Christian world would not be as Great.

Have we ever considered what Jesus said about a house divided?He said it could not stand when they accused him of casting out devils in the name of a devil.I wonder sometimes if we will someday awake to the fact that the churchs today are fallen and the why the power of God does not dwell in them as it did in just that one man Christ Jesus who healed and brought forth life in every one he touched.

I've become certian within my own heart that it's life we are to bring forth.....not ways...doctrines...methods......or believes of ones relgious upbringing.

Now have you ever considered just reading the verses for what it says directly instead of making it fit ones preconcieved thougths....such as Free Will?

Now I know that the thinking of free will is very strong in man.Adam and Eve both demonstrated free will.....but think of what they reaped.....DEATH....not just for themselves but for ALL of there offspring....from that point on.So free will is a fact indeed....but it's reward is what???

DEATH correct?But now lats look at one, who never demonstrated free will from beginning to end or in fact there was no end.

That would be Christ Jesus whom declared he was sent to do the Fathers will.Who said, I do not my own will but the Father who sent me....who taught his deciples to pray this very powerful prayer....NOT my Will but thine be done.......

So it then comes down to this very matter I believe...given up ones own free will is being an overcomer or Son for that matter.

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


So what I see here....not sure if this is tought in any church or relgious instatution....but "frankly I don't give a damn" as those famious words declare......but

free will equals Adamic nature or DEATH.

Fathers will equals Christ nature or LIFE.


Now lets take a look at Pauls words again....I will do as you did and cut out a few I want to discuss...for I feel they are very obvious in meaning once one gets over the notion that one can have free will and live.By the way I think Jesus confirmed this when he instructed one in this matter....

Let the dead bury the dead.....or I believe this can be seen as...follow me and the fathers will are be amongest the dead as their brothern.Agree?

OK some verses that I see as unpervertable by mans will, out of Pauls words;

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."


Now lets look at what is being said in these two sentences and see if they make sense.Do you believe all men are born of the Adam nature into death?Do you think it's the moment they are born or by way of the grave?For if by way of the grave it is a process as scientist seem to agree....we begain a death process not long after birth that takes us to the grave.

Now Paul is saying here this came by ONE man correct?Do you agree with that and is that one man ADAM????

But then in the NEXT sentence it says by one MAN came the resurrection of the dead.By one man....Paul doesn't say by God...but by one man.....now that can step on some doctrines huh?WHo could that one man be that brings forth resurrection?Christ Jesus of coarse...that one that forsake his own will to do the Fathers.

Now one might say good....Jesus overcame death and rose from the grave as proof....amen he's alive!But take the first sentence tells us that by one man death came to all.....is Jesus less than the first Adam in only being able to bring life to Himself and those few(and I mean few according to all the relgious traditions tought today) that see HIM?Then why did Jesus declare this during his walk?






Yet each one in his own classification: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then the final classification, when Christ delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For Christ must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For God has put all things in subjection under the feet of Christ. But when the Father says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that the Father is excluded who put all things in subjection to Christ. When all things become subjected to the Father, the Son Himself will also become subject to this One who subjected all things to Him. This is so that God the Father may be the ALL IN ALL." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).

.

in what's being said in the scripture than the words themselves.So that no matter what language the scriptures are written in that need an interpeter and of coarse all of us would claim the Holy Spirit as our interpeter....but if that were so....the division of the Christian world would not be as Great.

Have we ever considered what Jesus said about a house divided?He said it could not stand when they accused him of casting out devils in the name of a devil.I wonder sometimes if we will someday awake to the fact that the churchs today are fallen and the why the power of God does not dwell in them as it did in just that one man Christ Jesus who healed and brought forth life in every one he touched.

I've become certian within my own heart that it's life we are to bring forth.....not ways...doctrines...methods......or believes of ones relgious upbringing.

Now have you ever considered just reading the verses for what it says directly instead of making it fit ones preconcieved thougths....such as Free Will?

Now I know that the thinking of free will is very strong in man.Adam and Eve both demonstrated free will.....but think of what they reaped.....DEATH....not just for themselves but for ALL of there offspring....from that point on.So free will is a fact indeed....but it's reward is what???

DEATH correct?But now lats look at one, who never demonstrated free will from beginning to end or in fact there was no end.

That would be Christ Jesus whom declared he was sent to do the Fathers will.Who said, I do not my own will but the Father who sent me....who taught his deciples to pray this very powerful prayer....NOT my Will but thine be done.......

So it then comes down to this very matter I believe...given up ones own free will is being an overcomer or Son for that matter.

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


So what I see here....not sure if this is tought in any church or relgious instatution....but "frankly I don't give a damn" as those famious words declare......but

free will equals Adamic nature or DEATH.

Fathers will equals Christ nature or LIFE.


Now lets take a look at Pauls words again....I will do as you did and cut out a few I want to discuss...for I feel they are very obvious in meaning once one gets over the notion that one can have free will and live.By the way I think Jesus confirmed this when he instructed one in this matter....

Let the dead bury the dead.....or I believe this can be seen as...follow me and the fathers will are be amongest the dead as their brothern.Agree?

OK some verses that I see as unpervertable by mans will, out of Pauls words;

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."


Now lets look at what is being said in these two sentences and see if they make sense.Do you believe all men are born of the Adam nature into death?Do you think it's the moment they are born or by way of the grave?For if by way of the grave it is a process as scientist seem to agree....we begain a death process not long after birth that takes us to the grave.

Now Paul is saying here this came by ONE man correct?Do you agree with that and is that one man ADAM????

But then in the NEXT sentence it says by one MAN came the resurrection of the dead.By one man....Paul doesn't say by God...but by one man.....now that can step on some doctrines huh?WHo could that one man be that brings forth resurrection?Christ Jesus of coarse...that one that forsake his own will to do the Fathers.

Now one might say good....Jesus overcame death and rose from the grave as proof....amen he's alive!But take the first sentence tells us that by one man death came to all.....is Jesus less than the first Adam in only being able to bring life to Himself and those few(and I mean few according to all the relgious traditions tought today) that see HIM?Then why did Jesus declare this during his walk?

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Once more here I see where relgious dogmas has declared Jesus words as void of no effect.Do you think that is really possible??






"Yet each one in his own classification: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then the final classification, when Christ delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For Christ must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet."

Now here Paul is saying there is an order to being classified in Christ.The Christ or anointed first correct?Then those that are Christ or anointed at his comeing....and then who is left the last...says nothing about the anointed just those that are left when Christ(the anointed again)delivers up the Kingdom to God the Father.

I wonder wonder oh why is that so hard to see.....could we be blinded by relgious tradition that we can't hear what is being said by this anointed man of God, Paul?


"The last enemy that will be abolished is death."


Now here is I understood your meaning you said that this means that those born after the final resurrection will experance that correct?I could have misunderstood you there though.

But if that is so you are saying that birth and marrage will continue on after the resurrection.What did Jesus have to say about that?

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

So either there will be many bastard children born after the resurrection or that thinking is incorrect.

"For God has put all things in subjection under the feet of Christ. But when the Father says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that the Father is excluded who put all things in subjection to Christ. When all things become subjected to the Father, the Son Himself will also become subject to this One who subjected all things to Him. This is so that God the Father may be the ALL IN ALL." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)."


Ok on this last what I would wonder is just what part of ALL are we not understanding.All things are put in subjection....how do we leave out so much fact is more than 90% of mankind that has walked the earth according to relgious dogmas.

An this the very last paul declares the ALL IN ALL.How do you dismiss that without as some have done.....consider Paul not truly inspiried by the Holy Spirit and called of Christ Jesus to preach the GOODNEWS of God.

NOw the way I see it goodnews is that none shall be lost in the final analises....but according to much of mens goodnews....very few are going to be saved and many of your own family and friends are going to suffer a burning hell fire worse than even Hitler could have provided for his enemies or those he thought of as less then himself.

I think it's time to start acknowlageing God as a God of LOVE and the God of ALL raither then this one who was tricked by some fallen angel and whos will of creating man in his own image(Spirit and LOVE) was prevented by mans own free will.

But of coarse no doubt you disagree right?But let us agree to disagree agreeable....but I want to add this one thought......MY GOD is greater than yours...na ne naaaa na.:>))


lee


lee

Hi lee. You've brought up some points that I really think we should look at.

l> I wonder sometimes if we will someday awake to the fact that the churchs today are fallen and the why the power of God does not dwell in them as it did in just that one man Christ Jesus who healed and brought forth life in every one he touched. I've become certian within my own heart that it's life we are to bring forth.....not ways...doctrines...methods......or believes of ones
relgious upbringing.

N> When I ponder on what you're saying, many questions come to mind. I think and believe what the Bible says about about Satan for even HE BELEIVES but also "KNOWS" that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ.

Matt 8:29
29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" (NIV)

The whole intent of Satan I believe is to thwart God's plan and prevent as many as he can from entering into God's Kingdom. They way he does this is by distorting our view of WHO God is and WHAT His nature is. This is why I believe the TRUE church of God under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit got together NECESSARILY at points in history in order to distinguish and clarify what is ESSENTIAL to believe and what is heretical or false teaching. Paul in his 1st letter to Timothy WARNED him of the importance of closely watching what you take into your heart to believe. He even said that WHEN you do so your GOSPEL MESSAGE "WILL BRING" salvation to your hearers.

1 Tim 4:16
16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. (NIV)

****
l> Now have you ever considered just reading the verses for what it says directly instead of making it fit ones preconcieved thougths....such as Free Will?

Now I know that the thinking of free will is very strong in man.Adam and Eve both demonstrated free will.....but think of what they reaped.....DEATH....not just for themselves but for ALL of there offspring....from that point on.So free will is a fact indeed....but it's reward is what???

N> I believe it is WHAT WE CHOOSE TO BELIEVE when we excercise FREE WILL. I don't believe it ALWAYS leads to death. Let's look at the FIRST INCIDENT of FREE WILL CHOICE.

Gen 2:15-17
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from "ANY" tree in the garden;
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." (NIV)

Gen 2:9
9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground-- trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (NIV)

If you look at Gen. 2:16, God says you can eat of "ANY" tree in the garden. When we see what some of trees in the garden were, (Gen 2:9) we can see that the TREE OF LIFE was amongst them. So while FREE WILL gives the POTENTIAL for evil, it is NOT EVIL in itself. As a matter of fact I believe that free will is a good thing because it gives us freedom to CHOOSE GOOD or EVIL rather than being FORCED.

******

l> DEATH correct? But now let's look at one, who never demonstrated free will from beginning to end or in fact there was no end.
So what I see here....not sure if this is tought in any church or relgious instatution....but "frankly I don't give a damn" as those famious words declare......but

free will equals Adamic nature or DEATH.

Fathers will equals Christ nature or LIFE.

N> I understand what you're saying lee but I don't believe that is what the Bible is actually teaching. United Pentacostalists (Jesus 0nly groups) teach that once the Son of God incarnated the Father was no longer, however, the Bible clearly teaches that when Jesus was praying to His Father in the Garden of Gethsemane that there are TWO WILLS

Luke 22:42
42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." (NIV)

John 5:30
30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. (NIV)

I believe when we are created man in the image of God, there are certain attributes He gives to man because He Himself possesses them. For example; He chooses to freely offer His grace to lost man, I wouldn't say He was forced to or obligated to. Do YOU think Jesus was OBLIGATED or FORCED to submit to His Father's will?

*******

By the way I think Jesus confirmed this when he instructed one in this matter....

(A) Let the dead bury the dead.....or I believe this can be seen as...follow me and the fathers will are be amongest the dead as their brothern.Agree?

OK some verses that I see as unpervertable by mans will, out of Pauls words;

(B) "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

N> I'm sorry lee but in the statement I marked (A) I really don't undertand what you're trying to say but I WILL comment on the (B) part.

1 Cor 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. (NKJ)

You must remember lee....Paul is adressing a BODY OF "BELIEVERS" not ALL mankind. The words I think we must focus on are "IN CHRIST" There are many verses in the Bible that speak of "A" people being "IN" Christ Jesus.


Rom 8:1
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, (NIV)

Rom 9:1
1 I speak the truth in Christ-- I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit-- (NIV)

Rom 12:5
5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. (NIV)

Rom 16:3
3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus. (NIV)

Rom 16:7
7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. (NIV)

Rom 16:9
9 Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and my dear friend Stachys. (NIV)

1 Cor 1:2
2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ-- their Lord and ours: (NIV)

1 Cor 1:30
30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God-- that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. (NIV)

1 Cor 15:31
31 I die every day-- I mean that, brothers-- just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NIV)

So I think when Paul is addressing the body of believers at Corinth, he is referring to ALL THEM "IN CHRIST" shall be made alive. I also think this thought aligns itself with the rest of Scripture. The people in ALL the quoted verses were people IN THE BODY of BELIEVERS

************
l> Now lets look at what is being said in these two sentences and see if they make sense.Do you believe all men are born of the Adam nature into death?Do you think it's the moment they are born or by way of the grave?For if by way of the grave it is a process as scientist seem to agree....we begain a death process not long after birth that takes us to the grave.

Now Paul is saying here this came by ONE man correct?Do you agree with that and is that one man ADAM????

N> Well I believe it so if the Bible says it lee. The ADAM nature as you call it is the nature that sins to me. If you are asking me if an infant should die immediately after birth or even at a young age goes to (spiritual death) hell, I would say NO because that would contradict God's very nature of mercy and compassion. After all, an infant or even a young person is not likely to comprehend accountability of his nature at a young age. Are there occasion where it is POSSIBLE? Yes I do believe there are occasions where a young person could mature enough to mentally reject salvation, although not likely for an infant. That however is in God's hands. However, IF by God's grace one has accepted His gift of salvation HIS WAY, then even though this body of corruption will die, our spirit is made alive IN CHRIST and eventually, in the coming world these people will take on the same body but this time the body will be incorruptible.

******

l> Now one might say good....Jesus overcame death and rose from the grave as proof....amen he's alive! But take the first sentence tells us that by one man death came to all.....is Jesus less than the first Adam in only being able to bring life to Himself and those few(and I mean few according to all the relgious traditions tought today) that see HIM?Then why did Jesus declare this during his walk?

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Once more here I see where relgious dogmas has declared Jesus words as void of no effect.Do you think that is really possible??

N> Well are they devoid lee? You must remember why Jesus came to the world .....TO SAVE and NOT TO JUDGE.....Now in one of previous posts I mentioned a problem that often arises when we take verses, isolate them and create a belief from them. If you take Jn 12:47, and isolate it and create a belief say of Universalism then you have to nullify other verses that God spoke as void and of no effect. For example Jesus said;


John 3:18
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. (NIV)

Where does the non-believer stand? Why? Will you just throw out this verse?

What about 2 Pet 3:9? Why is the Lord patient? Why does He want EVERYBODY to come to repentance.


2 Pet 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (NIV)


Luke 13:3b
3b But unless you repent, you too will ALL perish. (NIV)


2 Pet 3:7
7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. (NIV)

Just because Jesus says He didn't come to judge but to save, does that mean there'll be no day of JUDGMENT? Of course not. The Bible clearly speaks of the judgment AND DESTRUCTION of UNGODLY MEN.

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l> "Yet each one in his own classification: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then the final classification, when Christ delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For Christ must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet."

N> You see lee this is what I mean. Can I ask you WHAT BIBLE you got that uses the word "classification" in it? This is as I previously said what happens with false teaching and teachers. They isolate a verse and DISTORT it. Take a look at all the translations and they ALL basically imply ORDER "NOT" CLASSIFICATION.

These are the translations for 1 Cor 15:23

But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ's, at his coming. (WEB)

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming. (ASV)

But every man in his right order: Christ the first-fruits; then those who are Christ's at his coming. (BBE)

But each in his own rank: the first-fruits, Christ; then those that are the Christ's at his coming. (DBY)

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (KJV)

But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (WBS)

But this will happen to each in the right order--Christ having been the first to rise, and afterwards Christ's people rising at His return. (WEY)

and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, (YLT)

Do you notice it DOESN'T INCLUDE those that are unrepentant non-believers. Factually here, it doesn't say anything about the rest but it does in many other parts of Scripture. The are judged and go to hell.

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l> "The last enemy that will be abolished is death."


Now here is I understood your meaning you said that this means that those born after the final resurrection will experance that correct?I could have misunderstood you there though.

But if that is so you are saying that birth and marrage will continue on after the resurrection.What did Jesus have to say about that?

N> No what I'm saying is that for those who are IN CHRIST death whether it be natural, spiritural, or eternal will not have it's place over the BELIEVER. I'm not saying anything about birth or marriage. There are different views about what heaven will be like but I don't want to fall into conjecture of a place we know so little about.

*******

l> Ok on this last what I would wonder is just what part of ALL are we not understanding.All things are put in subjection....how do we leave out so much fact is more than 90% of mankind that has walked the earth according to relgious dogmas.

N> Well according to Scripture ALL who pass from THIS LIFE in unbelief are lost. I believe God has allowed man the FREE WILL to choose FREELY whether he WANTS eternal life (by going God's Way) OR eternal death separation from God (by going his own way) while we are in THIS TIME AND SPACE. After Christ comes back and the Lord has HIS DAY, then EVERYBODY will be in his/her everlasting home. ALL THINGS will be in subjection to God.

We do disagree on the final analysis of God's good news because if God as you say is a God of love then the recipient of God's love MUST RECEIVE God's love WILLFULLY "NOT" out of compulsion. IOW lee if you are honest, I don't think you would marry a person who loved you BUT you didn't love in return. It's not fair to either party is it? In real life the best that can happen is that you be convinced and fall in love with the one who loves you OR in mercy and compassion and REAL LOVE severe the relationship.

In response to your last comment....MY GOD is greater than yours...na ne naaaa na.:>))


Maybe you think so lee, but my God is not deceptive. To focus on ONE WORD "ALL" in no way implies God saves ALL.
































“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”~~~~Edmund Burke

must be greater than God and God HAS to be losing this 'so called' battle of good verses evil. Look around...isn't evil much more predominant and greater than 'good'....there MUST and is another way than what you seem to testify to Nucc.
I do agree with much of what you said...that over the centuries...God certainly has taken His true believing Church to the 'wilderness' and protected them...even if at some time...His truth only existed hypothetically in one person and regrew from there...it has never totally left us...(His truth I mean)...and certainly scripture points to His Church as a 'little' flcok not a great one.

But...the WHO and what this chuch was...between you and I Nucc...I mean in which church it was that was over time taken out and protected...is obviously a different one.

"Now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. Yet each one in his own classification: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then the final classification, when Christ delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For Christ must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For God has put all things in subjection under the feet of Christ. But when the Father says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that the Father is excluded who put all things in subjection to Christ. When all things become subjected to the Father, the Son Himself will also become subject to this One who subjected all things to Him. This is so that God the Father may be the ALL IN ALL." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).