Easter or Ishtar?
by Al Perez

The word Easter appears once in the King James version of the Bible.Herod has put Peter in prison, "intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people" (Acts 12:4). Yet in the original Greek text the word is not Easter, but Pesach, that is Passover. So why was the name changed? Please read on, and remember Exodus 34:14; For you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous G-d.

"Asherah" the Greek form of this word from the Septuagint is "Astarte", who is the Babylonian goddess of the sea, sea being symbolic of people, and consort of the god El. She was the mother of several gods, including Ba'al, the Babylonian god of the sun. These deities were soon adopted by the Canaanites when they named these female deities the Ashereh or Asherim. These deities were made of wood carved from a type of evergreen tree, or often they were set up in Canaanite homes as full trees cut down from a forest. The Asherim normally were highly acknowledged during two specific occasions. First and foremost, they were the fertility gods of the spring equinox, when the days and nights were approximately the same in length, signifying the beginning of living things growing for the summer season. A very common practice in the Canaanite religion was performed on the first Sunday of the equinox. The families would face east to await the rising of the sun, which was the chief symbol of the sun god, Ba'al. Later on during the day, the children of the Canaanite parents would often go and hunt for eggs, which were symbolic of sex, fertility and new life. It was believed that these eggs came from rabbits, which in the pagan world were symbolic of lust, sexual prowess and reproduction. The Canaanites, however, were not the only ones who worshipped rabbits as deities. The Egyptians and the Persians (Babylon) also held rabbits in high esteem because they believed that rabbits first came from the divine Phoenix birds, who once ruled the ancient skies until they were attacked by other gods in a power struggle. When they were struck down, they reincarnated into rabbits, but kept the ability to produce eggs like the ancient birds to show their origins.

Other stories concerning the egg rose later in the Middle Ages by the Anglo-Saxons, where they believed the origin of the Universe had the earth being hatched out of an enormous egg. Decorating eggs came about to honor their pagan gods and were often presented as gifts to other families to bring them fertility and sexual success during the coming year. And secondly, they were highly worshipped and celebrated during the winter solstice. As according to Jer. 10:1-5; Is. 40:19-20; 41:7 and 44:9-20, the pagans would go out into the forest and do one of two things. Either they chopped down a tree and carved a female deity out of it, or they would simply bring the tree into the house and decorate it with gold and silver ornaments symbolizing the sun and the moon while nailing a stand on the bottom so it would not totter or tip over.

Out of this practice came many other variations of these pagan festivals until the Roman Catholic Church adopted the Asherah worship and named it EASTER around 155 A.D. According to the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, Easter was named after a pagan goddess of the Anglo-Saxons named Eostre, the goddess of the dawn. A great controversy arose between the Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church in 325 A.D. on whether to celebrate Easter on Sundays or on whatever day the Jewish Passover fell upon. Unfortunately, the Greeks lost a lot of followers and the Catholics contended that keeping Easter on Sundays would stimulate the practices of both the Christian world and the pagan worshippers. Note that the word CATHOLIC means "universal" or "one world" in thought, concept and practice. Hence, since the original practice of Asherah worship we now have in our time the celebration of Easter, a counterfeit holiday to the true Christian festival of the Passover which was instituted in the Bible and completed in the New Testament when Christ died on the cross as our Passover Lamb.

"...For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us."


Phil Barnes
Seeking The Mind of Christ! Come study with me!
http://www.network54.com/Forum/462204/

of following the traditions of men over the Truth of God.

AND....people will argue that because they don't do the egg or xmas tree/Santa Claus part then...they have eliminated the pagan aspect...

which is completely unsound reasoning and only justifies following tradition, no matter how whitewashed or no...over God's Holy days.

Christmas is Not Pagan - Part II

By Dr. Richard P. Bucher, Pastor

The Arguments Put Forth By Those Who Oppose Christmas

The first part of the argument that the anti-Christmas literature makes is:

(1) Christmas is obviously pagan because there is neither Biblical command nor precedent for celebrating Christ's birth.

This is often stated in the literature. Characteristic of this argument are these comments in "Tis the Season for Pagan Worship":

There is no Biblical warrant, precedent, nor precept for remembrance of the day of Christ's birth as a day of special religious celebration. This is not to say that we shouldn't remember Christ's birth and its significance, but for religious commemorations or celebrations, we must have Biblical command or precedent!

Someone says, "I know Christmas is of pagan origin, but I still think it's not wrong for a church to have a special time for honoring Christ's birth." But since when did Protestants believe that Christians have the right to add to the Bible? Is the church a legislative body? Are we to follow the Bible in our faith and practice, or the thinking of fallible men? If we have the right to add a special holy day to the Christian economy, then we can add 10,000 other things. Then we will be no better than the false cults and the Roman Catholics who follow heathen traditions!

Notice though, that we are commanded to remember Him in His death (but no special day was specified for this either)--"Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; this DO in remembrance of Me" (Luke 22:18,19; 1 Cor. 11:23-26). To commemorate His death is Scriptural. Any day of the year will do. To commemorate His birth is non-Scriptural, even extra-Scriptural (Deut. 4:2; 12:32; Prov. 30:6; Rev. 22:19), whether one chooses December 25th or any other day.

Later the same author favorably quotes a 1871 sermon by Charles Haddon Spurgeon:

We have no superstitious regard for times and seasons. Certainly we do not believe in the present ecclesiastical arrangement called Christmas . . . because we find no Scriptural warrant whatever for observing any day as the birthday of the Saviour; and consequently, its observance is a superstition, because [it's] not of divine authority.

Now it is certainly true that the Bible does not command the celebration of Christ's birth in specific words, and I won't pretend that there is. Is it not true, however, that Matthew and Luke included their accounts of Christ's birth, at least in part to be read in worship? As the people responded to such readings of God's Word in worship with their praise, were they not celebrating Christ's birth? Moreover, it is well known that the portions of New Testament were from a very early period incorporated into the worship of the Church (e.g., the Magnificat, Mary's song of praise in Luke 1:46-55; and the Benedictus in Luke 1:68-79); it is also well known that portions of the New Testament contain hymns or confessions used already in the Apostolic age (e.g., Phil. 2:6-11; 1 Tim. 3:16).

More to the point, however, does the silence of Scripture make celebrating Christ's birth wrong? Is it true that when it comes to religious celebrations, the Bible must specifically give command or precedent? Is it true that creating a Christian festival is the same as adding to Scripture?

The answer to all these questions is a resounding, "No!" To say that Christians are forbidden to create a special day for worship unless it is specifically commanded in the Scriptures is ludicrous. Where did they get this idea? Actually there is a word for this: biblicism. Biblicism is the legalistic error that Christians can only do what the Bible specifically says to do. This led some of the radical reformers in the Sixteenth Century to rid their churches of organs, crosses, clergy vestments, and many other things because the Bible did not command such things.

Have these authors never heard of Christian freedom? Yes, the doctrine of the Christian Church must be based only on Scripture alone and we dare not add to or subtract from it. But in matters that do not involve doctrine, in matters that are neither commanded nor forbidden, Christians have freedom in the Church to do or say, add or create, or subtract and delete anything -- unless, as I said, it clearly contradicts an essential teaching of the Christian faith, or is found by the majority not to be edifying.

This, by the way, is the meaning of our Lord's words in Mark, which these anti-Christmas writers love to quote: "You lay aside the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men . . . making the Word of God of no effect through your tradition" (Mark 7:8,13). Jesus was not scolding the Pharisees because they had traditions. He was scolding them because (1) their man-made traditions contradicted the commandment of God and (2) they told those who didn't follow their traditions that they were sinning, thus making them necessary matters of conscience.

Does annually celebrating Christ's birth contradict a commandment of God or violate an essential teaching of the Bible? Not at all. Do Pastors tell their parishioners that if they do not observe Christmas they are sinning? If they do, they are wrong. Since we are not commanded to celebrate Christ's birth annually, we are not sinning if we choose not to. But neither are we sinning if we choose to observe it. It should not be made a matter of conscience, a matter of sin, in either case.

Now some within the anti-Christmas camp would respond by saying, "Ah, but there is a passage that commands us not observe special holy days. It is wrong to celebrate Christmas because the Bible commands us not to observe "days, months, seasons, and years" in Gal. 4:9-11.

Thus, we find in "Is Christmas Christian?":

Paul wrote to the Galatians in dismay, "Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years! I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain" (Gal. 4:10-11). He wasn't condemning them for observing those institutions commanded by God, but for observing those of man's making, contrary to God's law.

Actually, the "days, months, and times, and years" to which Paul referred were Jewish holy days, about which the vast majority of Biblical commentators agree. When this passage is placed in the context of the entire letter to the Galatians, this becomes obvious. The Galatians were being taught by Jewish-Christian false teachers that faith in Jesus Christ was not enough to be justified before God, that they also had to be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses. Paul focuses on this issue in 5:2-4:

Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

The problem was not that the Galatians were observing holy days and seasons. It is that they were being taught that such observances were necessary for their salvation, a complete contradiction of the Gospel that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ. Similarly, to observe Christmas because you believe to not do so would be sinful is wrong and you would fall under Paul's exhortation in Gal. 4 & 5. But to observe Christmas in your Christian freedom, because you choose to, not because you have to, is completely permitted before God.

God Bless: Joanne

Hello and thanks for posting your views.

I find this comment especially interesting:

>>"Have these authors never heard of Christian freedom? Yes, the doctrine of the Christian Church must be based only on Scripture alone and we dare not add to or subtract from it. But in matters that do not involve doctrine, in matters that are neither commanded nor forbidden, Christians have freedom in the Church to do or say, add or create, or subtract and delete anything -- unless, as I said, it clearly contradicts an essential teaching of the Christian faith, or is found by the majority not to be edifying."

Well, indeed, I have heard of the phrase "Christian Freedom"... but, as to the above comment... Who says?

Who is it that SAYS Christians have this supposed 'freedom'?

Just curious.

Again, thanks for being here.

Phil

.....did not Christ Himself say...


John 8:28-32
28 So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [the one I claim to be] and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him."
30 Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.
32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (NIV)

I think the main point of the statement you're alluding to was that the writer was speaking specifically about ESSENTIAL DOCTRINE. These essential doctrines MUST be based ONLY on Scripture alone. Many present themselves as Christians yet misuse the Scriptures to fit their belief system. They focus on certain Scriptures and at the same nullify others. Paul in one of his Epistles clearly states;

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (NIV)

For example there are those who deny the Deity of Christ and isolate a Scripture like...


John 14:28
28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (NIV)

These would be guilty of taking away subtracting and deleting from the verse that clearly says the Jesus is God;


John 1:1-2
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning. (NIV)

This is NOT a freedom we have if we are in Christ, but can freely be expressed by those OUTSIDE of Christ.

The freedom we DO HAVE "IN" Christ is in regard to non-essential doctrine. For example there are those that believe you can lose your salvation (Arminians) and there are those who believe you can not only KNOW that your salvation is secure BUT ALSO that you can KNOW RIGHT NOW that your salvation is secure (Moderate Calvinists). It is NOT IMPERATIVE that we believe in one way over the other because it is not that issue the brings us salvation. However, it "IS" imperative that we believe in the ESSENTIALS of the Christian faith in order to be genuinely saved. We can believe in these essentials by faith even though we don't completely understand them, BUT we DON'T HAVE THE FREEDOM to reject them to create our own essentials.

As far as objections to celebrating Christmas and Easter, the objections are just ploys by non-believers in order to create dissension in the church. They can't Biblically contend for their false teachings so they attempt to find any way of suppressing the truth.


Matt 24:23-26
23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.
24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect-- if that were possible.
25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. (NIV)

Hope that gives you insight Phil.

“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”~~~~Edmund Burke

See MY RESPONSE to this question at my Heresy Hunters Exposed site.



Rev. Jack Howell

Your Question: Should Christians Observe Christmas?

My opinion? Nope!

Phil

That is YOUR opinion!



Rev. Jack Howell

Any of the first century apostles celebrated either the Birth or death of Jesus??

I see many times they were celebrating Passover and the Sabbath(s) but I just cannot find those scriptures.

Please help us here so that we don't subscribe to opinion or tradition and ONLY to the Word!

Thanks bunches!

Not exactly the apostles but CERTAINLY a celebration of recognition not rebuked by God or the apostles..

Matt 2:11
11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. (NIV)



“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”~~~~Edmund Burke

And these gifts were given to an infant in a stable?

Luke 2:6-7
6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born,
7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. (NIV)

The greek word MANGER fatnee is used interchangeably with STALL.


Luke 13:15
15 The Lord answered him, "You hypocrites! Doesn't each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or donkey from the STALL and lead it out to give it water? (NIV)

Where do you find animal stalls gerard?


Now gerard were they celebrating the birth of Christ or not? Can you show me where in the Scriptures we are forbidden to celebrate Christmas?


Rom 14:5-6
5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. (NIV)

As I implied....Celebrating Resurrection Sunday OR Christmas is not what makes you a Christian OR a pagan. Accepting Christ as He is in the Scriptures, HIS WAY does.











“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”~~~~Edmund Burke

that show God doesn;t accept any mingling of paganism and worship to Him and could also show that the first century apostles never celebrated either the birth or death or resurrection...but you wouldn;t accept any of them anyhow.

You can find the many that show God is a Jealous God and dtells us to FLEE from any paganism...and certainly MANY theologians have shown that the wise men reached Jesus NOT as an infant but probably around the age or 11 or 12.

N> Celebrating Resurrection Sunday OR Christmas is not what makes you a Christian OR a pagan. Accepting Christ as He is in the Scriptures, HIS WAY does.

Can you SHOW where in the Scriptures that celebrating the birth of Christ is wrong? Were these wisemen stricken or cast out of the stable or were they and there gifts accepted? We're discussing Resurrection Sunday and Christmas here aren't we? Not paganism.




“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”~~~~Edmund Burke

The point IS and the topic IS that the roots for adopting the days in which the birth of CHrist and Easter were pagan celebrations....

mingling of paganism and worship to God is not accepted by God. He has shown this.

I merely stated the facts as the Bible teaches gerard. .... There is nothing pagan about celebrating Christ's birth. At least not in the Bible. That's what we go by isn't it? Well at least I do.

“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”~~~~Edmund Burke

As easter recedes into the distance, I thought I'd go back and briefly respond to some of these messages that I missed...

Hello Nucc!

You said>>"
Not exactly the apostles but CERTAINLY a celebration of recognition not rebuked by God or the apostles..

Matt 2:11
11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. (NIV)"

Well, yes, these weren't the apostles... but since that was what the question was about, I doubt that this reference will suffice as a supporting scripture. These wise men came a long way...NOT to celebrate His birth, but to honor Him as a KING.. It was the custom then, and probably still is in many locations around that area, to bring gifts when one comes into the presence of a King.
These were not 'birthday gifts', per se'
Plus, it's plain from the bible, although not well recieved by many, that this event DID NOT occur while Mary and Joseph and the baby Jesus were there in the stable... it was later... maybe as much as 2 years before the wise men arrived, and... when they did visit Jesus, He was in a HOUSE... not still in a manger or a stable stall. That may not seem signifigant to many, but, it is to me. Tradition says there were THREE wise men... truth is, there may have been many... the Bible doesn't specify the exact number. Tradition says they visited the baby Jesus in the manger, or stable stall... truth is, it was much later... Tradition wants to keep and preserve the scene and setting that has been engrained in the minds of millions... truth is, it wasn't that way.
People will do what they will do. They will think of it that way, and celebrate it with that image in their minds... tradition... tradition... Where would we be without our ... tradition?

Thanks for posting here and I hope you will visit often,
Phil

While I respect anyones decision not to observe Christmas certainly, I would also ask you the same question your asking those of us that might choose to observe these days respectfully.

Where does it say in the scriptures, thou shalt not observe those days as a day of observing the birth and death of our Lord? Because while I cannot find any commandment that says we must, neither can I find any that says thou shalt not as well.

In fact, I find scripture that says we should not judge anyone by choosing to do either, for that matter, written in, of course, Col. 2:16-23. Yet people continuously do so most likely for doing or not doing this. And these things should not be. Why? Because it can very often cause division between our brothers and sisters, which should not be happening because of what that division in turn cause within the hearts and minds of others both ways possibly. Which can in turn cause much damage to themselves and others evidently, again depending on the individual hearts of those involved in these differences, and how they feel toward those that do not agree with their choice concerning these issues.



luv ya,
Sandy

Wherefore the rather, brethren give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. (2nd Pet. 1:10)

and not only to Gerard, I wrote his name in there because of answering following his post on this issue. But it should be for all of us to consider.


luv ya,
Sandy

Wherefore the rather, brethren give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. (2nd Pet. 1:10)

..it is...

Phil

Agreed Phil.

Paganism is paganism...as Wil Durant (historian) said:

"Modern Christianity didn't destroy paganism...it adopted it instead."

How do you feel about celebrating birthdays...human not sacred? Isn't that pagan in origin too?

God Bless : Joanne

The Law:
There is nothing in the 613 precepts of the Law about birthdays. If God does not specifically condemn or prohibit something, then man has no authority to create a law and bind it upon others for obedience and faith. Man-made edicts and religious laws have no Scriptural authority. No one is obligated to follow or observe what is not found in the Word of God by principle or by direct reference. There is nothing in the Word of God that by principle or direct reference condemns observing birthdays.

My point of faith is: is this not true of celebarating the birthday of Jesus?

God Bless

The Birth of Jesus:
We know Jesus was not born in December and so the Christmas festivity celebrating this is false. We do know he was born in September. Do we have any record the Apostles observed the birthday of Jesus? No, there is no record. But there is also no record of them performing a wedding ceremony! There is no record of them conducting a funeral. There is no record of them concerning wedding anniversaries. There is nothing about bridal or baby showers . And, there is no actual Church service that shows use of musical instruments. There is nothing about indoor toilets, offering plates, or song books. There are no choirs, no fifth sunday dinner's on the ground, or women's meetings. There are no Church garage or yard sales, no fund raising for missions, no prison ministries for sinners, and no hospital visits for sinners who are sick. There are no home Bible studies for sinners. So far as we know, there were no church buildings owned by Christians. They met in homes and in other places. There were no baptismal tanks or other devices used for immersion of converts, but rather baptisms were done in streams, rivers, or natural ponds. There were no New Testament Bibles in the possession of the Saints or Church members. Few had the Old Testament or could even afford to own one that was available. The most they could do was look upon the scrolls in the Synagogue or Temple and hear them read there. There are no business owners in the New Testament among Church members, and so far as we know, no one who held employment working for another. We could go on and on and list the things NOT FOUND in the practice of the Apostles and use the absence of these to place bondage upon Believers. To do so is insanity. That is why we are enjoined to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF GOD. This is not the work of novices. If there is evil, sin, or wrong in a thing we have no reservations, we will oppose it. But we must have Bible for the sin or evil that is in a thing. What about the birth of Jesus, was there evil in this event?

worth thinking about though...isn't it?

that I see a difference in that there is no worship to God in celebrating a birthday...however...it still is worth reflecting on and studying.

What does the Bible say against celebrating birthdays? NOTHING!
Is it pagan to celebrate a birthday? NO!
Has anyone proven birthday celebrations began with pagans? NO!
Will you go to hell for celebrating your birthday? NO!
Is it a sin to celebrate your New Birth in Christ on its annual day? NO!

Is it a lie to teach the Bible is against celebrating birthdays? YES!
Is it a lie that birthdays began within paganism? YES!
Did people in the Bible count their birthdays? YES!
Did Jews celebrate the 12th birthday of boys and girls? YES! Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah
Did the parents of Jesus take him on his 12th birthday to Jerusalem and celebrate his Bar Mitzvah? YES!
Did Levites on their 30th birthday celebrate becoming a priest? YES!

God Bless: Joanne

I guess you answered your own question then.

Well, it was just my opinion. What is yours?

My opinion doesn;t matter really.

I seek His opinion....and still seek it.

Sorry I asked.

Well, greetings Nucc. Glad to see you posting here, and thanks for
your input.

Nucc says,>>"The freedom we DO HAVE "IN" Christ is in regard to
non-essential doctrine. For example there are those that believe you
can lose your salvation (Arminians) and there are those who believe
you can not only KNOW that your salvation is secure BUT ALSO that you
can KNOW RIGHT NOW that your salvation is secure (Moderate
Calvinists). It is NOT IMPERATIVE that we believe in one way over the
other because it is not that issue the brings us salvation. However,
it "IS" imperative that we believe in the ESSENTIALS of the Christian
faith in order to be genuinely saved. We can believe in these
essentials by faith even though we don't completely understand them,
BUT we DON'T HAVE THE FREEDOM to reject them to create our own
essentials."

Nucc, no offense, but you will find that my beliefs are
'un-orthodox'.. That means basically, that I don't believe in or
subscribe to most of the doctrines that modern Christianity considers
as 'essential'.

Easter (and Christmas) observance are among the doctrines I do not
adhere to, or participate in. But, please understand, I KNOW that
those who do are very dedicated and sincere. I salute their sincerity
and hope to be as dedicated to my beliefs as they are to theirs. I
know and realize that those who do participate, do so in an effort to
worship the REAL GOD.

The thing I was referring to in my post was this idea of "Christian
Freedom"... Here, again is what I said:

ME>>"I find this comment especially interesting:

>>"Have these authors never heard of Christian freedom? Yes, the
doctrine of the Christian Church must be based only on Scripture alone
and we dare not add to or subtract from it. But in matters that do not
involve doctrine, in matters that are neither commanded nor forbidden,
Christians have freedom in the Church to do or say, add or create, or
subtract and delete anything -- unless, as I said, it clearly
contradicts an essential teaching of the Christian faith, or is found
by the majority not to be edifying."

Well, indeed, I have heard of the phrase "Christian Freedom"... but,
as to the above comment... Who says?

Who is it that SAYS Christians have this supposed 'freedom'?"

So, is that true? Do Christians "have freedom in the church to do or
say, add or create, or subtract and delete anything...."???

Who says? That is what I was being curious about..

Nucc, you also said:<>>"As far as objections to celebrating Christmas and Easter, the objections are just ploys by non-believers in order to create dissension in the church. They can't Biblically contend for their false teachings so they attempt to find any way of suppressing the truth."

Well, I don't keep them. That's my choice and I DO preach against the observance because I don't believe that those 'holidays' are something that God requires, OR expects... or wants. I'm not out to create any dissension, I just post what I believe. Others are free to believe whatever they wish.

I know this may result in my being labeled as an non-believer, but that would not be the case. I DO believe... in God, the Father, and Jesus Christ. I know that Jesus is God. I know Jesus is the Saviour. He is my Saviour.

Nucc, I do appreciate your post and your comments. It's always good to see what others believe.

Phil

concerning issues such as these days of observance, whatever they are.

I believe the following verse, which Paul wrote twice in the scripture tell us this to be true. So what Phil does, or anyone else concerning certain issues, that is up to them. And I believe that because of what is written in 1st Cor. 6:
12. All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

And again he said almost the same identical thing in 1st Cor. 10:
23. All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

The problem is, sometimes we think everybody should be doing the same thing we are doing about almost everything. And that is not true. Not that it hurts to discuss it either. Because discussion keeps us balanced when we do celebrate and when we do not celebrate, making sure we are not in bondage to doing either way, but are doing what the Lord is telling us personally we should be doing for whatever reason He has for doing so, because we abide in Him, thus being bound to Him as His wife.

That is what I believe.

luv ya,
Sandy

Wherefore the rather, brethren give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. (2nd Pet. 1:10)

Thanks Sandy for sharing your views.

You said>>"
Response to The freedom we do have... ??
concerning issues such as these days of observance, whatever they are.

I believe the following verse, which Paul wrote twice in the scripture tell us this to be true. So what Phil does, or anyone else concerning certain issues, that is up to them. And I believe that because of what is written in 1st Cor. 6:
12. All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any."

Hey, I think this is true.. ultimately, it's up to the individual to decide what they will do in regard to these days. I think that most who claim the name of Christ, will choose to observe them.. why? Well, my opinion is that it's a combination of tradition and nostalgic memories... plus family and friends...i.e. 'peer pressure'... but, some.. well, some will decide to investigate and compare their bibles to what the traditions are all about. They will choose to NOT participate because the fact is... (and I mean no offense to anyone by this)... the fact is... 'these days' are made up... totally... of PAGAN customs... ornaments... symbols.... and paraphanalia that was used to worship other gods! I honestly don't know of any part of any of the customs involved that were not used to worship other gods... some of us have the crazy idea that what God SAYS about the heathen ways of worship just might be how He actually FEELS about those ways!
He did command the children of Israel to "LEARN NOT the way of the heathen"... But who stops to ask and wonder WHY?? What could have possibly been wrong with just 'learning those ways'? I believe, God forbade them from learning those worship ways because He knew that they would try to APPLY THOSE WORSHIP WAYS TO HIM! Today, that's exactly what the majority of professing Christians have done and are doing.

How does God feel about those heathen worship ways?

Deu 12:1 These are the statutes and judgments, which ye shall observe to do in the land, which the LORD God of thy fathers giveth thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth.
Deu 12:2 Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree:
Deu 12:3 And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.
Deu 12:4 Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God.

You shall not do so unto the LORD your God.

He didn't WANT those things utilized in worship TOWARD HIM.

Has He changed His mind? Does He now accept and even WANT that type of worship?

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Sandy>>"And again he said almost the same identical thing in 1st Cor. 10:
23. All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

In this day and age, 'things that are lawful' aren't really all that important. At least, not to most professing Christians.. they have been taught that the LAW is not applicable to them.. so, they think that they have CHRISTIAN FREEDOM to do as they please about many many things...

Sandy>>"The problem is, sometimes we think everybody should be doing the same thing we are doing about almost everything. And that is not true. Not that it hurts to discuss it either. Because discussion keeps us balanced when we do celebrate and when we do not celebrate, making sure we are not in bondage to doing either way, but are doing what the Lord is telling us personally we should be doing for whatever reason He has for doing so, because we abide in Him, thus being bound to Him as His wife.
That is what I believe. "

I think... that God is a consistant God who would never tell one person one thing, and another person another thing... especially about HOW and on what DAYS He is to be worshipped. I don't think that He approves of any worship toward Him that He, Himself does not SPECIFY.
I know that opinion isn't well received, but that's how I think...

I also think that yes, everyone has their own mind and will do as they think is best for them.
Do I want to change their minds? Or somehow make them do and think as I do?
Nahh... I know I can't do that. Changing minds is what God does.. not me.
that's their business and it's between them and God.
My wish and hope is that He WILL CHANGE the minds of those He wishes to change.
And I know that someday, He will...

Amen concerning what you wrote in the following of course.

"My wish and hope is that He WILL CHANGE the minds of those He wishes to change.
And I know that someday, He will..."

I have experienced that myself, thus knowing that pendulum swings both ways, which I do hope all realize too. LOL



luv ya,
Sandy

Wherefore the rather, brethren give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. (2nd Pet. 1:10)

Phil I can't take offense at someone who is at least honest and is willing to reason objectively.

P> Nucc, no offense, but you will find that my beliefs are 'un-orthodox'.. That means basically, that I don't believe in or subscribe to most of the doctrines that modern Christianity considers as 'essential'.

N> I agree....there are MANY MODERN doctrines or modern MISINTERPRETED doctrines that come disguised as Christian doctrine that I ALSO don't subscribe to. Although, you haven't been specific on the exact doctrines you mean, I really can't comment. I'm not really concerned about non-essential doctrines because they are debatable but I do have concern when people come under the guise of Christian and distort doctrine that is ESSENTIAL especially when it concerns the very nature of God.

If as you say your beliefs are UN-orthodox, I would have to know what exactly you mean by un-orthodox. The very first Scripture that was shown to me was from Isaiah 1:18


Isa 1:18
18 "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. (NIV)

At first I took in the whole verse because it spoke to me about my sin. Then later after I responded to God's grace, I went back to the verse and wondered HOW God was able to accomplish that in me. The first five words of the verse ILLUMINATED "Come now, let us reason together." I believe it is through REASONING from God's Word and by the conviction of the Holy Spirit that we can safely conclude that God DOES have one ONE WAY to believe about Him.

I'm not one who like far too many others that fellowship by focusing on ALL GETTING ALONG at the cost of truth. To me there is far too much of this LET'S ALL GET ALONG IN LOVE when no one is even REASONING what God's definition of love is. They think it's just getting along NO MATTER WHAT YOU BELIEVE. This results in the diluting of truth, IOW people make up their own truth contradicting God's truth.

*******

As for Christmas and Easter, I shudder at what society has made Christmas AND EASTER, but not because of the giving of presents nor the Easter bunny. To me these are harmless UNLESS we exclude the REAL MEANING of both DAYS. I think most Christians use the term Easter loosely NOT KNOWING it is based from paganism. True Christians, I believe use the term "Resurrection Sunday" most often in order specify exactly the meaning of the day. I have no problem with how you view both times. However, maybe I would if you denied both days happened. I just love giving gifts to kids and seeing the joy on their faces BUT I ALSO LOVE sharing the true meaning of those days with those kids. To me those days create opportunities to witness for Christ and ALSO to remember that UNLESS those days actually happened, we are without hope. Your view on those days DOESN'T MAKE YOU a non-believer because they are not essential to observe, however to deny they actually happened would be a different matter.








“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”~~~~Edmund Burke

not a bad combo really...hehe

He's honestly shared his opinion. Opinions are just opinions.

“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”~~~~Edmund Burke

I know that there are a few Christians who believe it is wrong to celebrate Easter and Christmas because the roots of these holidays are in paganism. There is no doubt that they have their roots in paganism. This is not disputed. What I do believe should be examined is the argument that says anything which has its roots in paganism should be avoided by Christians today. I would argue that nearly everything in our culture is rooted in paganism. Even the names of the months of the year and planets are named after pagan gods. The names of the days of the week also have their origin in paganism. "Thursday originally stood for the Germanic god of the sky or of thunder. Tuesday stood for Tiw, the god of war. And Wednesday is derived from Woden, the chief god in Germanic mythology. Sunday and Monday were related somehow to the worship of the sun and the moon.. Saturday is from Saturnus, or Saturn, and Friday comes from Fria, the goddess of love."1 The basic idea behind our government is Roman, which is a pagan culture. The fact of the matter is that our entire culture is rooted in paganism. Just because something has its roots in paganism, does not mean that it is evil today. The question we must ask ourselves is whether something that is pagan in origin still carries the same pagan connotations it once did. Christmas and Easter were Roman pagan holidays. Christmas came from the Roman feast of the Unconquered Sun (Sol Invictus) celebrated on December 25th. Later, when Christianity was legalized by Constantine I, this feast day was replaced with a celebration of Christ's birth. Obviously in our culture Christmas and Easter have become Christian in meaning instead of pagan. That which has its roots in paganism is often divorced from its original meaning, and invested with new, non-pagan meaning over time. This has been the case with Easter and Christmas.

Since celebrating these feasts in a Christian way is not Essential Doctrine, we should have the freedom of choice whether to celebrate them or not. The intentions of the feast are what matters, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny or the Birth of our Beloved Savior and His death and resurrection. Both are extremely important to me and those who believe as I do.

It hurts me to think that some whom we love feel that it is a pagan ritual to celebrate these feasts. It makes me wonder what we taught our children by example...obviously the wrong thing..this is what saddens me....my failure as a mother!

God Bless: Joanne

...most likely closer to the truth.

Is Christmas Pagan


Gregory Koukl

Greg sets the record straight on some old rumors about the origin of Christmas and separates the concepts of the meaning of Christmas from the spirit of Christmas.


The question of whether Christmas is pagan enters into the idea of cultural practices. Some have made the assertion that Christmas has pagan origins. Christmas does not have pagan origins, but there are winter celebrations that are pagan. There was, for example, a saturnal celebration around the time of Christmas that pagans celebrated, which was actually a temptation for Christians to participate in that had pagan content to it. So the church changed the day that they celebrated the birth of Christ. They used to celebrate it in the Spring. But the church said, "We can celebrate it any time we want. Let's celebrate it at the same time the pagans are celebrating their pagan festival. It'll act as a contrast to that pagan festival because our celebration is the birth of the God-man, Jesus Christ. It has Biblical content. Plus it will protect Christians from being wooed away by this other celebration to participate in what was a pagan celebration".

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5172




“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”~~~~Edmund Burke

Hello Joanne and please forgive me for such a long post...

QUOTE>>"About Christmas and Easter
Joanne
Response to Well
I know that there are a few Christians who believe it is wrong to
celebrate Easter and Christmas because the roots of these holidays are
in paganism. There is no doubt that they have their roots in
paganism."

Greetings again, Joanne. I find your comments interesting. You are
correct, there is no doubt about the roots of our modern-day
celebrations.

QUOTE>>"This is not disputed. What I do believe should be examined
is the argument that says an