...immortal?

Phil

Phil Barnes
Seeking The Mind of Christ! Come study with me!
http://www.network54.com/Forum/462204/

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.


lee

and so forth...but in truth it was a spiritual death that Adam died and it happened right on the spot(not that his spirit died in the be no more...but his awariness of Spirit so it could be called Sleep too and is)...not some hundreds of years later whenever Adam went to the grave.Why he was driven out of the garden....for darkness(spiritual)could not dwell in the light of Gods glory.It's difficult in our generation(dead so long)and our language lacking Gods language to express or comprehind God Spirit and life and death as God sees it.

[yet I believe we are a work of God that shall all experance life when that work is finished]

The church has given us a picture of this physical place as the garden of eden and a physical angel standing guard over it with a flaming sword.More reason for man in his fallen state to laugh at Christanity....for there is and never was such a place is my thoughts.Yet on TV we see man still looking for this place in the physical realm....which is mans vanity in thinking that what he is now is life.

Adam as an immortal man was a spirit man and his dwelling place was spiritual and is still near to him yet he can't find it.the Pharisees asked where is the Kingdom of God and were told it's within or some would interpet about you.Either way it shows that the Kingdom is right there and yet unreachable by men dead in spirit.

AN yes Adams spirit is inmortal and yet it's his soul that walks in death(spiritual)so that he as his children are the walking dead to God and what they call life only last so many years then the grave(dust to dust).Now here what I see the east end of the garden as....that Adam and eve were driven into...This physical existance.The angel or Cheribum that stands between him and the garden of Eden.That is the spirit of imagination(do a study on Cheribum)and yes my spelling is terrible for sure.The flameing sword speaks of the laws of Moses that too...keep man from entering this place that is Gods Kingdom...the place in which he walks about.Remember God is Spirit and we are created after his image in the beginning or Adam was...we are his sons untill we recieve Christ Jesus an are born again.

There is no law that sayed that Adam could not go back into the garden...just an obstical of his own thinking or imgination and laws laid down for our caranal nature....which really are spiritual laws in the fullfillment that Christ Jesus brought.

So yet Adams spirit is immortal and from God where it returned....all things return to God that come out from him that is the law of circulirity that the creator has put into place in all things....see it in the universe.

But this Adam became dead to the Spirit which God is remember and so did all his off spring......Jesus told his deciple when ask about the dead and taking the time to bury such.....Let the dead bury the dead.....you follow me me and live.That wasn't a quote but a deduction from what Jesus spoke to his followers...which we are to be if we want to have LIFE.

So a little of why I think as I do....yes my spelling is terrible and I often have trouble orginizeing my thoughts for others to read....and am always in a hurry...hurry ....hurry.

Let me tell you my wife left me because of the time I spend in Christ and then speaking to others about it afterwards.I wasn't fullfilling her needs in the flesh...and for that I'm sorry and still find myself rushing rushing rushing to get all done.

I guess I will know true liberty when I can relax and go about the Fathers bussiness...without worrying if the ground is being tilled our not.ha ha


lee

I think we focus upon physical death
and so forth...but in truth it was a spiritual death that Adam died and it happened right on the spot(not that his spirit died in the be no more...but his awariness of Spirit so it could be called Sleep too and is)...not some hundreds of years later whenever Adam went to the grave.

Well, Lee... thanks for speaking up on this.. Of course, I disagree.. [what a disagreeable character I am!] hehe.. anyway... I know you believe what you said above... but, really... I often find that people 'believe' things that aren't mentioned in Scripture... It's almost as if they have simply come to a 'conclusion' and then that 'conclusion' grows into a belief. [you may think that has happened to me]

Let me explain: I've heard the theory that Adam 'died a spiritual death'... but, I have to wonder where that idea comes from... It's not mentioned there in Genesis... I wonder... has someone found it mentioned elsewhere in the bible? Yeah, I know Christ made a comment about 'let the dead bury the dead'... but, taking that to be proof that Adam suffered a 'spiritual death' doesn't seem to fit.. at least for me.

I get the feeling that because Adam didn't immediately fall over dead, [like those folks in the NT that lied about the money they donated], that someone, somewhere said, "well, there just has to be another explanation! God said Adam would die, so, he had to die! If not a physical death, then it had to be a 'spiritual death'!"

Another conclusion? Could be! I agree... God said Adam would die... SURELY!! And, yeah, my beliefs are a little less 'orthodox' about that situation... I believe that God was actually talking about Adam's PHYSICAL DEATH. Why? Well, I believe that Adam was already DYING! I believe that he, [just like us] was DYING from the moment he opened His eyes... Yeah, that's probably gonna conflict with someone's theology, but... oh well...

I believe that Adam [and Eve] were created MORTAL... not IMMORTAL!... I believe that they were created with the intent that they live and die just like all other humans...

But, there was something SPECIAL about their circumstances there in the Garden. THEY had the opportunity to EAT from the TREE OF LIFE and live forever! IF they had OBEYED GOD, He would have given them the fruit from the TREE OF LIFE and they WOULD have lived forever! But, they failed the test and because God is a God of love, and didn't want them to live forever in a state of sin, PUT THEM OUT... and barred the way to that other TREE!

Now, let me explain that a little... WE all know there were two trees... the Bible tells us that! But, How do we KNOW that THEY KNEW about the TREE OF LIFE??
We don't! I think we have ASSUMED that they did... but, really... have you ever READ about God TELLING THEM ABOUT IT???

Yes, you're right.. He DID tell them they could eat from every tree... [except the forbidden one]... but, have you read about Him explaining that one of the TREES WOULD GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE?????
I don't think He did!

Why would He? Put yourself in Adam's place... Which tree would YOU eat of FIRST?

There's more to this... but this is getting too long...
More later... maybe...

Phil

not too long...


PLEASE...continue....very edifying reading in this thread....

thanks.

... So, IF I WERE ADAM, and if the Lord had told me that there was a certain tree in the midst of the Garden that would give me ETERNAL LIFE, that would the FIRST PLACE I WOULD GO!



Some might say that I would not go there first, maybe because they feel that Adam was basically a child, and basically, children tend to do the exact opposite that they are told... as in being told not to touch a certain toy, they would be drawn enexorably to THAT TOY and the temptation to touch it would be great... after all, that is human nature... but, to me, IF I KNEW ABOUT THE TREE OF LIFE, I would go there first and MAKE SURE I had a big old bite first thing! Everything after that would be an eternal adventure with no end...

And, what about that 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil'??? What was so WRONG about having that knowledge????? I'll leave that for others to consider if they wish... afterall, GOD TOLD ADAM, that if he ate from it, he WOULD SURELY DIE! Was it poison?? The scriptures seem to indicate that it was 'pleasant to the eye' and a fruit to be desired... What was it about that fruit that was all that bad?

Isn't it a good thing to know good from evil??
Was God trying to keep them simple and childlike?
Have you ever wondered...?

More later...
Phil

not being alive spiritually and yet in the first chapter we find he was created in the image of God...and we are told God is Spirit in the NT.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


So yes I think Adam died spiritually before his physical death or body died.Yet the soul I feel continues to live and this in the thoughts of the grave.King David sayed the Lord was with him when he decended into the Grave....written as hell in the KJV.

We too know that the saviour spent three days in the grave(hell) and even ministered there it's sayed.

Yet we know that Jesus the second Adam was not spiritually dead so rose from that place to enternal life.THere's much in that thought if you study the scripture.He told the sinner that honored him he would be with him that day.Yet we know he spent three days in the grave....so what was really met...after all he never told the other sinner he wouldn't be with him that day.


Jesus to the word of Truth to the grave with him for those lost souls I believe and I think those in Christ shall be responsable for the same.Why I think the excape route tought in the church is error....we have a responsablity to follow Christ to the cross and beyound....in order for the Fathers will be done.Jesus declared.....

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


THat leaves none out....Jesus went to the grave 3 days 3 being the day of fullness.....then decended.....I think the Christian should be aware that he too shall follow Jesus.THose who reconize him not at this time....whill have there three days in the grave too and should find Christed ones there as Jesus was.....telling them of salvation and renewing of ones Spirit threw Christ as Jesus did to those who died before Noah.

anyway some quik thoughts and few verses....and your very much in error if you think I've come to my beliefs without both word and Spirit and years of search.It's just that I know it can't be recieved by those that cling to their relgious more than search out truth....so do not put as much effort in saying why I beleive as to the fact that I believe in a God of unconditional Love and a Saviour who never failed in any way...but did and shall do as he declared in drawing all men unto Him.

God declared threw his prophets every knee shall bow.

I beleive him.........

Jesus declared...he shall draw on men unto him..in his journey to the grave and decention..

I believe him......

Paul declared he suffered reproach for the salvation of ALL men.....

I believe he was called of God and spoke what the Lord Jesus gave him to speak and nothing more.


See I beleive this chapt to the letter....


Now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. Yet each one in his own classification: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then the final classification, when Christ delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For Christ must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For God has put all things in subjection under the feet of Christ. But when the Father says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that the Father is excluded who put all things in subjection to Christ. When all things become subjected to the Father, the Son Himself will also become subject to this One who subjected all things to Him. This is so that God the Father may be the ALL IN ALL." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).


read this sentence again....

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.


Yet do not followers of Christ die in body?So which is the death that is spoken of in eating of the tree of Good and evil?

I could show you with plenty of verses my friend...but let me ask you....can you get past your relgious up bringing long enough to consider them.

God is Spirit ....SPirit is life....men are born under the old adam lifeless and yet under the new(Christ) life dwells just for the takeing or eating of his fruit.

He is the tree of life....it was in the center of the garden with Adam 1 that day and is still standing right there to be taken by any that will today and here is the fruit of said tree.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


Yet how many Christians actually eat of that tree today.An how many none beleivers have you met that do eat of said tree by nature?At least a few...so what is really life and what is really death and just how much importance should we but on this physical life?

Jesus said;

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.


Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.


Maybe it's time to quit listening to relgious tradition...and start hearing what the Saviour was really saying that we will actually know what life really is...

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Can we really be so sure we understood these words by what we see in the churchs today who seem to have no life these days?

Yes I think Adam died that day he partook of the fruit of good and evil.....but I too think it was intended that he partake of the other tree in GOds timeing...for look what GOd sayed about why he was driven out of the garden at that time.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:


It's all in GOds timeing....none by mistake as the church teachs us......First we have to die...and then when we know longer cling to what we view as life.....we shall know life and be as the creator declared;


Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How untraceable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been his counselor? Who has first given to him reimbursement? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen" (Ro. 11:33-36).



Anyway PHil you always amaze me when you commit....I see from a orthodox view point while you don't. For there is nothing comon about what the Lord has been showing me in his word compared to what the churchs see or the Jewish community and yet I use the same written word as they.

So please share some of your unorthodox veiw that I might hear something new...for see I don't fear the new....it's the old wineskins that will not be able to hold it(old relgious thinking)......but those that seek the Lord in Spirit and Truth expect some new manna every day.


lee






"You are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; so that you may set forth the wondrous deeds, displaying the virtues and perfections, of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." (1Pe. 2:9).