http://www.spiritlessons.com/Documents/BillWiese_23MinutesInHell_Text.htm

this is a sermon where a guy describes what he believes to be a vision of Hades given to him by God

its in audio, and you can read it in text....

for me it was well worth it, and i read it

much love

Jamie writes concerning: 23 minutes of hell

http://www.spiritlessons.com/Documents/BillWiese_23MinutesInHell_Text.htm

Jamie>>"...this is a sermon where a guy describes what he believes to be a vision of Hades given to him by God
its in audio, and you can read it in text....
for me it was well worth it, and i read it
much love"

Hello Jamie,
Thanks for posting and welcome. I hope you will not be offended by my disbelief. I don't believe that God gave this man anything. I do think he saw or experienced something, but it was not an ever-burning hell, and it did not come from God.
Yes, it was just that: "... a guy describing what he BELIEVES to be a vision of Hades given to him by God.."

Jamie, God would never give anyone a vision of something like that. It doesn't exist. "Hades" is the grave, not and ever-burning fire where sinners are tortured for all eternity. God would NEVER do anything like that to anyone!

Whatever this man experienced, it was not 23 minutes in a place that does not exist.

But thanks for posting and I hope you will share more as time goes by.

Phil

but the truth is, God would never do anything like that.......its our sin that does it

RE 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a LAKE OF FIRE burning with brimstone.
RE 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
RE 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death.
RE 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.


"tormented day and night for ever and ever."

MT 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and HIS ANGELS:


my brother, its in the scriptures, you can choose to believe the word of mouth that told you the scriptures were jumbled

but the bible tells us not to place our trust in men

PS 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in WHOM THERE IS NO HELP.


and to not put our trust in ourselves

PR 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and LEAN NOT unto thine own understanding.


God Bless you man

its in the word of God

much love

RE 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


much love man

Hi Jamie, totally get where you're coming from on this.

Compare closely what the vision describes and see if it matches up to this ... read through it again if you have to.

Rev 20

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,

10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Gotta be careful and compare carefully what is promoted as truth and how it compares to the Word.

I know what I have to say further on this would be against the doctrines taught by your church, and unfortunately would inevitably draw in others whom I do not wish to engage on this topic at this time. Just take it to heart, quietly, and see what your heart says regarding this particular vision. If you want to, that is.

Best to you

Dave

The referenced scripture above is from Rev 14, not Rev 20.

arggghh! lol

Dave

hey David.....yeah,
thats the lakes of fire

the eternal lakes of fire

if the vision was to be real, it would be speaking of Hades

hades is hell right now

eternal hell is judgement day

lake of fire is judgement day

Hades
which is the pit, is right now


romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


its not speaking of those who took the mark being saved from the wrath, its those in Christ

and if we reject God

romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

we treasure up wrath to ourself according to what we've done or do



the hell in revelation, is the lake of fire, on judgement day,

the hell the rich man went to is right now, its Hades...Hades was taken from the Hebrew language...because both hells were named different and are at a different time

i will show you a verse of Hades



20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.




this man didnt have the mark of the beast...but he trusted in riches and not in GOD

he found his comfort in this world.....notice that his family is still on earth.....judgement hasnt come to pass.....this is the hell for anyone who dies now and isnt going to heaven

and in revelation it reveals the pit opening, and the sky blackening....David Jeremiah preached that demons cover the entire earth, attacking everyone on it who doesnt have the mark of God


here is revelation where the pit opens and the demons are released onto earth


revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.


David Jeremiah said that Abaddon is the devil

the head of the demons

this is getting really deep into it....

but now heres judgement day

HEB 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of RESURRECTION of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

judgement day comes when God will judge everyone, and those in Christ will be saved

i dont want to argue about this,
if you dont want to learn, you wont hear

Hades is a hell for the soul alone.....the lakes of fire is the body and the soul

MT 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.




im sorry if im overbearing, im just sharing the gospel, im not playing with the scriptures

much love

I see where you're coming from.

Thanks for clarifying.

Best to you

Dave

This is very intriguing! Only asking questions here, not to argue.

You are saying that upon our physical death, we will go to what would in essence be a temporary place - either Hades or Heaven. Either of these two places is only for the soul. Is that correct?

Upon judgment day, there is a resurrection of the dead from ... Sheol? Hades? same thing? and there will be judgment and those written in the Book of Life will ... what? Go back to heaven, or go into a physical Kingdom or ... ? And those condemned will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is different from the temporary Hades and this time their torment will be ... ? It is different from the torment of Hades or is just eternal instead of temporary?

If there's a denominational link you can give me, I'll go read up on it and not waste your time, or I'll listen if you want to explain it, it's up to you. I don't think I've ever heard this version of things before, very intriguing.

Dave

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.


yeah, and like the scripture before

romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

it says he will judge according to deeds, so it probably depends on the individual as to how it will be experienced

it says it will be fire an brimstone...Gods wrath...

Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living GOD.


despite all this GOD loves us deeply, more then anyone, its the law, and God is a righeous judge

RE 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and RIGHTEOUS ARE thy judgments.
RE 19:2 For true and RIGHTEOUS ARE his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Jesus will come back and recieve those who believe in him, dead or alive

hes a God of justice....Jesus didnt die in vain, its very serious...
there was no other way


1john 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

he takes no pleasure the death of sinners

ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

God is an awesome God

hell was designed for demons, and not people

much love

I must just be dense today or something. I'm not seeing the answers I'm looking for in the scripture you posted. Is there a link or something you can give me that explains this in a little more detail?

Dave

i will try and answer it from breaking down your question, im seriously sorry if i dont get it this time, i just dont know where on the internet to get such specific answers, you can try google, but ill see what i can do, one thing ill say is i dont know the word Sheol, i havent learned it yet, im just a Christian seeking the Lords will born again, but none the less i make mistakes



This is very intriguing! Only asking questions here, not to argue.

You are saying that upon our physical death, we will go to what would in essence be a temporary place - either Hades or Heaven.

I believe hades from scriptures is in the heart of the earth, so when earth gets replaced, so does hell

MT 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH.

Jesus died and went to hell

so God creating a new heaven and new earth, he would have to get rid of the old hell...like in revelation it says the pit opened in the earth


Either of these two places is only for the soul. Is that correct?
yes, they are only for the soul, after we die, we go to one of the two before judgement day

its not a church doctrine, i go by what ive learned, i never even learned this stuff at my church...i listen to alot of sermons, and let the word of God filter it

Upon judgment day, there is a resurrection of the dead from ... Sheol? Hades? same thing?

the dead will be raised, to be judged, after their souls return to their body, those in Christ are saved from the judgement


and there will be judgment and those written in the Book of Life will ... what? Go back to heaven, or go into a physical Kingdom or ... ?



And those condemned will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is different from the temporary Hades and this time their torment will be ... ? It is different from the torment of Hades or is just eternal instead of temporary?

RE 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the BOOK OF LIFE was cast into the lake of fire.

RE 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the BOOK OF LIFE of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


to not be written in the book of life, means your no longer going to live....its the book of life, and if you are in it, then you will live forever


and yes the torment is different.....read my last post to see the answer to this

i believe i answered all your questions with this and the last post

if you still cant see the answers, ill do my best to find you a site

much love

Appreciate your time to do that. That helps a lot.

Take care as well brother.

Dave

God Bless ya!!!!

i want to find a site for you, but you asked so many specific questions, id need to study like so many sites and filter them with the word of God before i could give you links to answer your questions

i dont belong to a denomination.....the church i go to isnt a denomination

its just a buncha people that love God and are passionate about serving him, and following his word, non the less, were all humans, but i go to this church because most of these people put God before everything else

and Gods my life

much love man

it doesn't express Jesus Christ on the subject at all.It uses a few scripture like many relgious do....do make ones point....but leaves a lot to desire.


It follows a lot of the Roman Catholic Churchs teachings on hell.Now where did they get there teachings on these demons of a prison type hell and torment?From the deciples teachings?

No not at all...as a matter of fact the roman empior who embraced christainity...I will add for politcal reasons....I believe his name was Agustine.....had previously worshipped a false god that would fit this snaerio you've discriped here of this relgious mans vision or whatever.

I see the enemy at work in this type of teaching and would be willing to share why and what evidence I can give...to prove this false...only if one is willing to read it and be a of this nature;

considered the people in Berea to be MORE NOBLE than those of Thessalonica. This was because they received the word with ALL READINESS and WILLINGNESS OF MIND, examining the scripture DAILY, with a positive view, expecting to prove what they had heard to be true. Likewise we must learn HOW TO LISTEN with an open, yielded, and genuinely responsive frame of mind. (Acts 17:11).


See the people of Brea are an example of how to hear the teachings of others.You say this man provided you with verses as prof of his testimony.Yet never did you say you yourself examined the scripture seeking prof even in a positive way.

At one point you told us you didn't trust man...then you turned right around and trusted this mans testimony without seeking out evidence for yourself.

Now I can tell you there is plenty of evidence to prove this mans testimony to be false.He might be sincere in the highest degree as I'm sure you yourself are.....but by ignoreing the scriptures that provide a balance in understanding and by useing revelations as your prof of devils and demons when in fact the very first verse of revelations tells you this...

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


Do you really think in shareing this mans testimony with Rev. as prof text....your sharing the testimony of Jesus Christ?

Here's what John wrote about revelations....

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


It's a book of signs about Jesus Christ given by his messenger(angel).

Again I say so sad....because Gods people allow mens imaginations to teach them raither than the HOLY SPIRIT.

lee

Lee, I would personally like to hear what you are saying when you use Rev 1

I'm not understanding what you are saying about it. Keep in mind, I'm not combative, my only words to you regarding this would be further clarification, not going to fight you or anything.

But I think you already know that.

Dave

Lee, you are saying that Jesus sent a messenger to relay the information in Rev? So people who would claim that Jesus took them by the hand personally and toured them about various places would seem a bit strange and out of character with the Word, given that even the apostle John was given words through a messenger instead of directly by Jesus?

I totally get it, if that's what you're saying.

Dave

Acts 9

3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him.

4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied.

6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."


Dave

This particular vision that Jamie posts doesn't have Jesus being a tour guide. That's the Mary Baxter visions.

http://www.spiritlessons.com/Mary_K_Baxter_A_Divine_Revelation_of_Hell.htm

I'm going to shutup now and listen, lol.

Dave

new name or nature in Christ.He called himself the chief of sinners....that's a king jimmy for first.Pual called himself the frist to be called personally...not directly by the Father or by other mens testimony but by the Lord Christ Jesus directly.It's a call to the body of Christ as a many membered son.There is the church or women...there is the sons or manchild spoken of in revelations.The church gives birth that manchild....I'm thinking in rev. 21...before she is sent into a dry place desert(spiritually dry).This is takeing place in this generation in this day or really it already has accured I beleive.

THe church gave birth to the manchild and then was seperated from him by the relgious dragon or serpent satan.

But there shall be a comeing together again but that's getting into another subject...

Peace!......

lee

I did sort of bring that up in my other point.The messenger is the Holy Spirit...for John....for lee for david and every other called in this hour...each in there own order.....read 1 corth...15 given good focus to verse 20 on....

Of coarse some will say...will men have the Holy Spirit and there testimony is of the Holy Spirit.Only your heart or the Christ within can give wittness to that....and with that we stand...or fall...


lee

going to fight HUH??????ha ha

Let's just take a look at Rev 1 and I will share what I think it says......

First I want you to know I think it sums up everything you will read in revelations.


Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

OK first lets start out with the title of the book and the second word in the chapter.Revelations what that?It's a revealing is my thinking on it.

Now what is being revealed?Lets look at the fourth and fifth word of the verse......Jesus Christ and now I could be wrong about this...but I believe the orginal(I'm not going to look it up now...it changes nothing in my thinking....says CHRIST JESUS.But why do I emphize that.Will I know for sure it was Pauls(of coarse this is Johns testimony)stile to say Jesus Christ when referring to the historic man and Christ Jesus when referring to the Spiritual or full body , resurrected Christ.Problem is good old KJV decided to correct Paul and a few others and changed that where they felt apropriate(some say for language sake) to do so.anyway back to the subject and why I point that out.

I believe that the revealing here was not so much of the man Jesus Christ(we have that in the gospels)but of the resurrected Christ and His body in fullness too.

Hope you understood what I'm trying to say here....I'm an unarmed writter here with only a 10th grade education to work with.

Now this revelation was Given to Jesus Christ(him) and his servents.I do hope you understand the differnts between when the Father calling and the call of our King setted in Heavenly Places.They are of coarse of the same purpose to do the will of the Father....but we are told those deciples that followed Jesus were chosen by the Father.

Later in Pauls testimony we will see that it's Jesus who does the calling....for he's been crowned King and setted above the heavens(relgious realms).I could provide you verses for this...but hope you know your bible to save me time and research...or better yet ask the Lord on the matter.

OK another important matter is the fact that this revelations will shortly come to pass.So we get into the pretense past tense issue.I belong to nither group...but say revelations our the revealing of Christ Jesus has to come to each generation that follows him or his servents and body .For it's in each of us day generation it needs to be revealed.This generations often overlap...causing confussion to those that lasp back into soulish thinking in their walk(we all do attimes till the last generation or fullness of CHrist is fully revealed.That could take more discussion if you like.

These days for personal reasons I'm haveing a difficult time getting into long discussions....but hey we could brake it down and I could always push that notifaction button as Phil suggested.:>))

Now one of the last points I will make about this very important verse in Rev. right now. signified.... signified.... signified.....:>)) it's a book of signs...not a book of historic facts past or present....that's important for the understanding of this book as is the Holy Spirit or messenger(angel) that is given the duty to reveal it to His(Christ Jesus)servents....for anyone ealse it is a closed sealed and hidden matter as is every word that Jesus ever spoke....I can show you that in his discussion with the deciples on the matter of the parable of the sower if need be.

Now again I will say history has been revealed for each generation....for the first the Jews....it was obvious in the fall of ROME....for others it's often more difficult to see unless your an amazeing history buff.


Be blessed and be Loved.........

lee

Thanks for the explanation, it mirrors many of my own, again not required that we agree on things but it is nice to see it from others. I'm personally having a difficult time squaring some of the later stuff that I use personally when I consider "hell" but that's my problem, not someone else's.

Thanks for the words

Dave

it's an important place....and I think worthy of thought.It's an english word you know...never used in the orginals and is used to cover about three differnt words.I will not go there other then the one if often replaces....hades.....the grave is a better english word for that and David the King and Psalmist sayed of that;

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.


Of coarse we know there is spiritual implacation as will as natural.....oh David most alway had his head in the clouds....at least when he wasn't checking out a pretty lady.:>))

lee

Very important to understand what you are saying I believe. Thus my questions for Jamie. In answering those questions, over time, perhaps more will be revealed? Perhaps.

But yes, I understand what you are saying. I'm certainly searching for more, why? Because there are some large gaps, I just can't put my finger on them. The answers will come though, in time. They always have.

Dave

its awesome to see that you want to learn...the advice id share with you is to trust in the bible and look for secureness in your beliefs before you lean on them

make sure the words of the bible all go together to match the beliefs, and keep adjusting them....dont take my word or any mans as a place to lean...lean on Gods word alone, and pray that God gives you revelations, and just opens your eyes to whatever your trying to learn about....never let your church decide what you believe if you want to keep to the bible....

matthew 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?


let the bible shape your beliefs and not people, and keep praying for understanding of the bible....and youll be seeking Gods will alone

much love

Thanks Jamie, I appreciate that.

Dave

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.


for our call in Christ is to be kings and priest in his holy name(nature).....



lee