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Deb Said, " *Spirit and soul are the same in your view? They are very different in mine. Can you help me understand why you see them as the same?*"
Hello Deb, I hope you are well. Thanks for the reply, but I don't know if I can help you understand that or not. The reason is that 'words' mean different things to different people.
Words like 'soul', and 'spirit' are often used interchangeably... some believe they are the same thing, and some believe just the opposite.
I guess the way I worded my message made it sound like I believe they are the same, but really... I don't.
I'll try to lay it out plainly:
We don't *have* a soul! We ARE a soul.
Humans are souls. If they are 'living' then they are 'living souls' and if they are dead, then they are 'dead souls'.
Humans HAVE a spirit. It is not a soul.
The human spirit is a *spirit component* that enables the human to BE a human... it is similar to the operating system of an computer... when the operating system is removed, then the computer no longer computes. It's limited 'consciousness' is terminated and it just sits there... dead. Humans are like that too. When our spirit is removed [aka 'returns to God who gave it']... then WE are DEAD. No longer conscious and aware. Just dead. We are no longer a 'living soul'... we are dead souls.
Contrary to what a lot of folks believe, humans are composed of two parts.
Body, and spirit. Not three as some believe.
When the body dies, the spirit is retrieved and stored in heaven until the Resurrection. It is NOT immortal. It is NOT conscious. It's similar to a database file disk that stores all of what the person was during thie life. Physical appearance, thoughts, hopes and dreams... a record of everything that person saw and heard.. everything they WERE.
God will use that record to restore them to life at the Resurrection. Until then, they are 'asleep'... DEAD. Period. No exceptions...
No conscious person has ever gone to heaven *except Christ*, and no conscious person has ever gone to a ficticious 'hell'.
Dead is just that! DEAD...
Because of much confusion, it's difficult to share this with people. Souls are not immortal! Souls are people, and people can die! Many souls died in the Flood... and 8 souls were saved alive on the ark... read that story sometime and see...
Body, spirit and breath... the breath is often confused with the soul or the spirit.. much confusion here abouts... just the way satan wants it.
This message has been edited by PhilBarnes on May 15, 2008 7:40 AM
Science is baffled at why primates, who have the same mind CAPACITY in physical terms...
May 14 2008, 11:13 PM
as man....primates cannot reason or are not self aware, in simple terms they do not have intellect....
man's intellect is the result of the human 'spirit' which God gives each of us...and it is not a soul as you stated Phil...'nephesh' is used interchangingly in scripture to describe living things....man...sometimes other living beings as well. In scripture Nephesh is plainly used to describe phtsical life...not some immortal inner spirit thing.
Just wanted to add a little to this topic. Hope you don't mind Phil?
I am curious as to what scriptures brought you to this conclusion Phil? As I noticed that you didn't give any. And I would really appreciate your giving me some of them that brought you to this conclusion so I could look at them, considering them.
Right now, what I have considered so far to believe the spirit, soul and body are not one and the same thing, is the OT temple picture, considering this to be a picture of us as the NT temple of today, which it does tell us we are in 1st Cor. 3;16-17. And each of these pictures, along with all the furniture and etc. is an example for us to help us see what is going on in the spiritual realm that make us that temple to begin with.
So IMHO the outer court would be the same as our bodies.
The holy place the same as our souls.
The Holy of Holies the same as our spirits.
All of these having a picture to relate understanding to us concerning each individual here being a temple or container of God once He does begin to reside within us.
From there, much can be seen relating to something in the spiritual realm concerning this issue.
I also wonder today if many do not believe the spirit and soul to be one and the same thing because it might have been one place at first, the vail only existing once mankind sinned, thus the vail then separating the two which is revealed by the OT temple as well. I know this isn't what your saying here. But many do believe those two are one and the same thing because of their being such a similarity in their meanings in many ways.
I also can see somewhat why your saying what you do too, because their is also a similarity to what is pictured in the soul as to the function of the brain too. Except if you look at the picture of the OT temple, the thoughts must come from the soul and not the body originally according to furniture in there, meaning the table of shewbread, which IMHO would have to do with how each man thinks, whether being fed those thoughts into our conscious minds from the old man whose seat I see as within the soul, or Christ, whose seat I see as within our spirits once the seed of Christ is planted within us. Of course once christs seed is planted within, that seed coming forth fully within the inward man, the veil having been rent as it says it is at a certain time in 2 Cor. chapter 3, then both spirit and soul become one in Him, the old man being put to death and buried in Him at that time. Meaning their is no more separation or veil within that one anymore. thus the spirit and soul once again becoming one in Christ so that He can then continue on to destroy the body of sin. Not purifying the body of course, but to prepare us to receive that new body instead. Whereas you are saying the old body is the container of the thoughts rather than the soul. Which I see nothing so far in the Word to even suggest what your saying to be true at all. But that could be because of what I am looking at concerning this too. yet missing something within the scriptures that might say I am wrong. But I do believe if I am then you should be able to give me some biblical indication as to where I should study this in the Bible to see what your sayin could possibly be true. I guess because I believe if we know where to look, truth is revealed in there somewhere, whether it is spelled out for us directly or not. And of course to see where I am coming from scripturally would require one to do a study of the OT temple and all that is in there to get an understanding of what I am saying too. As I only hit some of why I do believe what I do very briefly to show one why I believe basically we are at least born into this world with all three anyway. Certainly three seems to be a pretty popular number biblically anyway.
Another scripture one might consider looking at is what is written in 1st John 5:8, although that does not prove the spirit, soul and body concept either. But the one that does is written in 1 Thess. 5:23. That saying that Paul is hoping to be preserved blamesless in all three, which essentially makes them one in more way than one. Meaning everyone has the three parts even though we are indeed one being no matter how you cut it. But also for those that are preserved blameless unto the coming of the Lord Jesus are also one in Him entirely, which is really what He prayed for in John 17:20-23 while in these tabernacles or bodies we dwell within here because of His destroyed even the body of sin as promised in Rm. 6:6 in the beginning of our walk in Him.
As always good to see you again too. Hope all is well with you too.
luv in Christ,
"Therefore brethren we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body,ye shall live." Rm. 8:12-13
When Christ begins within man, his seat begins within mans spirit according to the OT Pictures of the temple. But once we begin in Him is when the veil is rent, the soul and spirit no longer being separated anymore, both becoming one in Him. His then able to feed our conscious thoughts with His Word without interference, which is why the bible says we have the mind of Christ within us. And as He brings truth forth within us, we can know the truth, that truth setting us free from even the body of sin as we grow in Him daily accepting this truth freely.
My question is...then...if what you claim is true....than after 2,000 (aprox) years.....there must be some truly evident people who are living such sinless lives....(By ye fruit are ye known)....that you can show us that what you claim is true?
I mean after 2,000 years...if what happens....the way you just said it does.....happens....then there must be some people so full of truth that their fruit HAS to be...by what scripture said.....self evident this is the case!
also including too what you have said to phil about being ministers and that people can learn truth from others......
if iron sharpens iron...then after 2,000 years.....there MUST be some real sharpos out there??
Scripture concerning what exactly. As you did not say.
As for the latter part of what your asking me to provide you also seems to have a lot of misunderstanding within it concerning the difference between ones old man being dead when one begins in Christ which is clearly written in Rm. 6:3-. Yet your still misunderstnding me somewhat because of what you say to me there still. Meaning the body of sin is not destroyed when the old man is according to what is also written clearly in Rm. 6:6. Which it seesm is the area your judging other concerning, and asking me where all these perfect or completed people are as well. When I never said everybody was completed to begin with. But do say that ones heart and soul and spirit has been cleansed within, which scripture does say. That one I gave you definitely does.
But when it comes to me judging others as to whether the body or fleshly sins have also been totally destroyed yet, that I cannot do, nor would I even try to do if I could. Because that would of course be how another sees them outwardly, therefore that judgement being in the eye of the beholder themselves. Meaning you may just see someone elses flesh differently than I do. Because that is mainly what you looking at it seems anyway. Which we all do from time to time most likely that is true. Except I know our perception of another we have been judging by outward appearances mainly can definitely change drastically after the Lord has revealed the heart of another to them too. It definitely has happened to me before. Especially after I have prayed for them, God showing me their heart, my personal opinion of that one changing completely from what it was before then. My perception of other having been they were completely out of the Lords will until after God revealed that one truly had a heart after God totally, whether I saw them this way or not. After that I no longer saw them in the same light as I did before at all believe me. Because what I saw was a man heart after God then. Whereas before that I saw what I saw in the natural only. Of course, this has also happened in opposite direction too. If you want a scripture concerning judgment of the heart, I will look it up tomorrow for you, OK? As I cannot recall the exact location of it at the moment.
And of course, if you would tell me what scriptures you need that I might not have covered here too, please let me know what it is you are asking for in particular.
I really hate the way threads just sort of run out... like an old gold mine that finally gives up it's last remaining fleck of gold... but, I guess this subject is really 'offensive'.. especially since it refers to THE major doctrine of professing Christianity.
Some things can't be helped.. this is one of those things!
This thread, contrary to what many may think, has a very important subject... the devil has deceived the whole world... well, everybody but you, the reader... right? Surely you can't possibly be deceived about the MAIN DOCTRINE of modern Christianity! Right?
FACT: The immortal soul doctrine is a lie and all the doctrines that are built upon it as well...
Revelation 12:9... the devil is a liar and the father of it!
When did the 'father of lies', become a 'father'? Right there in the garden when he told Eve that she would NOT surely die! That was the birth of his very own little boy... That same 'little boy' has grown up over the centuries... and he is a 'big boy' now!! What he told Eve was the first lie. Amazing as it is, this little lie is the basis of most so-called "Christian" thought today! It is a lie that most professing Christians firmly BELIEVE and defend to this day!
Doesn't that seem STRANGE??? That someone who says they believe IN God, is not willing to BELIEVE God... God says one thing, the devil says another, and the very people who take the Name of Christ, willingly believe and cling to the 'word' of Christ's mortal enemy!
"You shall surely die" - God
"You shall NOT surely die" - devil
