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Cast vs. Rolled plate

May 8 2012 at 3:59 AM
  (Login ronrunningman)
Missing-Lynx members
from IP address

Response to German tanks and cast armour

Hi Jukka

Generally the use of castings in WW2 depended on the industrial history of a particular plant (or indeed country). So many US fabricators for inst, had long experience of making large castings whereas the same experience did not exist in Germany. The Germans were however, undoubtedly the world's best fabricators and welders of plate armour in the 1940s. One could say equally that US factories turned to casting from their earlier rivetting in WW2 purely because of their lack of experience with deep-welding armour plate.

So I'm not sure why you're setting up a cast vs.rolled plate argument as if cast armour was/is in some ways superior. Assuming that cast armour trumps rolled by default is just wrong. The cast-hull M4A1s were actively avoided by some US units as they were convinced that they were ballistically inferior to the welded M4s and M4A3s in combat. The all-cast M26 Pershing had equivalent armour thickness to the Tiger I yet was in some respects an inferior machine ballistically, the turret and hull often taking rounds that the Tiger I's would shrug off.

The Germans were definitely far better at producing (particularly interlocked) plate armour than any other combatant, and this served them well throughout, particularly on the Panther/Tiger series. One only has to look at the beautifully trunkated pyramid shape of the Pz.Jg.38 for a seminal illustration of the ability of German interlocked armour designers and fabricators.

Finally, the Israelis hired many ex-German slave labour armour technicians in the 1950s to help them with their newly-setup plate armour welding facility. And what the Israelis don't know about armour performance in combat isn't worth knowing.

And German industry DID use plenty of castings. What about all the myriad of topfblende mantlet variants for inst? Or MG34 K├╝gelblendes? Maybe you need to relook at your sources.


 Respond to this message   

  1. Interlocked - Javier de Luelmo - Diesel on May 8, 11:27 AM
    1. Cast vs. Rolled plate 2 - Ron Owen Hayes on May 8, 1:09 PM
  2. It was "in some ways" superior... - Roy A. Schlicht on May 8, 11:29 AM
    1. In a word... - Ron Owen Hayes on May 8, 1:12 PM
      1. My "hostile tone" was no such thing... - Roy A. Schlicht on May 8, 5:35 PM
        1. Sherman vs. Panther yawn - Ron Owen Hayes on May 9, 5:03 AM
          1. Panther and Sherman both great tanks - David DaSilva on May 9, 7:19 AM
            1. Absolutely - Ron Owen Hayes on May 9, 12:26 PM
          2. Ron, you are sooooooo wrong... - Roy A. Schlicht on May 9, 10:34 AM
          3. Data not myths......... - Michael Kenny on May 9, 2:39 PM
            1. Rants not facts - Ron Owen Hayes on May 10, 12:49 PM
              1. Only here to get the facts across......... - MichaelKenny on May 10, 4:05 PM
            2. Combat losses? - Cameron Burge on May 11, 9:44 AM
              1. Re: Combat losses? - Michael Kenny on May 11, 3:31 PM
                1. Anything more? Why yes. Seems like only 50% to me. - Cameron Burge on May 12, 3:31 AM
                  1. Arguably nearly all losses were caused by enemy action - Chris Meddings on May 12, 3:51 AM
                  2. Funny you should mention 50%............................ - Michael Kenny on May 12, 8:30 AM
                    1. How is is 'skewed' analysis? - Cameron Burge on May 13, 2:07 AM
                      1. Showing how it is 'skewed' analysis.............. - Michael Kenny on May 13, 11:56 AM
                        1. Again, were they TOTAL LOSSES? - Cameron Burge on May 15, 7:57 AM
                          1. Re: Again, were they TOTAL LOSSES? - Michael Kenny on May 15, 2:39 PM
                            1. Sooooooooooooooooo. - Cameron Burge on May 16, 5:34 AM
                              1. Take 3 deep breaths.......... - Michael Kenny on May 16, 10:24 AM
                        2. Stop it, you're killing me, Kenny. - Cameron Burge on May 15, 8:29 AM
                          1. your umbrage meter is off the scale........ - Michael Kenny on May 15, 3:06 PM
                            1. Yes that's the one. The sober German account vs the Boys Own British fantasy story. - Cameron Burge on May 16, 5:33 AM
                              1. Re: Yes that's the one. The sober German account vs the Boys Own British fantasy story. - Chris Meddings on May 16, 7:12 AM
                              2. Excuse making v the facts - Michael Kenny on May 16, 10:13 AM
                                1. The Gorman story is bollocks,. Rammed. King Tiger, Cagny, Goodwood. 18th July - Michael Kenny on May 16, 12:27 PM
                  3. Straws being clutched.......... - Michael Kenny on May 12, 8:50 AM
                    1. Cameron is right - Ron Owen Hayes on May 12, 12:33 PM
                      1. Cameron is not right - Michael Kenny on May 12, 2:34 PM
                      2. 10:1 ratio is a myth. - Michael Kenny on May 12, 2:41 PM
                      3. Old myths die hard...... - Michael Kenny on May 12, 3:28 PM
                        1. Statistics - Ron Owen Hayes on May 13, 1:31 PM
                          1. Re: Statistics - Michael Kenny on May 13, 3:57 PM
                            1. PS - Ron Owen Hayes on May 17, 12:35 PM
                              1. Yes the 1944 techicians were really stupid............ - Michael Kenny on May 17, 1:45 PM
                          2. Misconception - Chris Meddings on May 14, 2:32 AM
                            1. But Chris.............. - Cameron Burge on May 15, 8:12 AM
                              1. The figures need analysis - Chris Meddings on May 15, 9:58 AM
                                1. Who said that? - Cameron Burge on May 16, 6:00 AM
                                  1. Re: Who said that? - Chris Meddings on May 16, 7:04 AM
                                    1. Differing tactical situations - David DaSilva on May 17, 9:36 AM
                                      1. Re: Differing tactical situations - Chris Meddings on May 17, 10:16 AM
                                        1. Chris Interesting points - David DaSilva on May 17, 10:55 AM
                                          1. Controversy - Chris Meddings on May 17, 11:26 AM
                                            1. Not just a Tiger attack.................... - Michael Kenny on May 17, 1:17 PM
                                              1. Re: Not just a Tiger attack.................... - Chris Meddings on May 17, 9:44 PM
  3. Addendum - Jukka Juutinen on May 8, 12:16 PM
    1. Re: Addendum - Ron Owen Hayes on May 8, 12:59 PM
      1. I am by no means... - Cpt. C. Sosebee, USA (Ret) on May 9, 1:08 AM
        1. Locomotives - Jukka Juutinen on May 9, 3:47 AM
          1. The German locomotive - Cpt. C. Sosebee, USA (Ret) on May 9, 9:58 AM
        2. Listen to this man... - Ron Owen Hayes on May 9, 4:48 AM
      2. More may be better... - Jukka Juutinen on May 9, 4:08 AM
        1. As Joe Stalin once said - David DaSilva on May 9, 12:41 PM
  4. Interlocking and casting - Kurt Laughlin on May 11, 9:53 AM

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