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Towards the end of that thread, Hans Weber drew attention to the existence of a series of shots taken in the village of Fontenay le Pesnil (4km east of Tilly-sur-Seulles), said to show men and vehicles of 12.SS Pz Div. In one of these shots it would seem the same Befehls Panther A, seen at Soumont St Quentin in the earlier thread, may possibly be identified:
For comparison, here is a close up of the suspected Befehls Panther, along with the Soumont St Quentin eg:
The shot below was taken some distance from Fontenay le Pesnil, in Soumont St Quentin (just NNW of Falaise) and no doubt some time later (July, August?), going by the complete absence of the schurzen and associated hangers:
Assuming they are one and the same, on the face of it this connection would seem to set a precedent for the existence of turret tracks on 12.SS Panthers, but to be honest I need more convincing.
We all are given to understand 12.SS was built around a cadre of LSSAH personnel. Indeed, the two units formed the I.SS Panzer Korps in Normandie. Jon Fitzgerald also mentioned Kampfgruppe Wünche was formed in early July around elements of both 12.SS and LSSAH. Could it be possible, given 12.SS was the junior unit, that LSSAH could have assigned key support in the form of Befehls Panther in the command and control role?
As I can find no specific date for the Fontenay le Pesnil shots, I can only assume by the location, that the images were taken towards the end of June '44- the period when the town was hotly contested by the British 49th Infantry Division. This places the images slightly before the formation of KG Wünche.
The issue of whether 12.SS occasionally used tracks on their turrets like LSSAH seemed to routinely do becomes a little more curious with the existence of the following images:
This photo is said to be taken in Fontenay le Marmelon, 13km south of Caen- I understand an area both 12.SS and LSSAH operated in. If this villlage was not in a LSSAH area in particular, could this potentially be an ex-LSSAH Panther seconded to 12.SS with KG Wünche?
Apart from the Soumont St Quentin and Fontenay le Pesnil shots, this photo above and the following one are the only two Panthers with track hangers I can so far locate, photographed in the zone around Caen and between there and Falaise.
Bearing in mind Pz Lehr and LSSAH seemed to be the only identifiable units to serve/or pass through this zone that employed such turret mods, one could be forgiven for suspecting they aren't 12.SS. However, this shot could suggest otherwise, said to taken in Norrey (5km NE of Fontenay le Pesnil):
The size of the number would tend to rule out Pz Lehr, and be suggestive of 12.SS. But given the style of "R02"s marking (seen in the first LSSAH thread), could it be possible LSSAH used this style of number under the tracks and on the turret rear occasionally??
I am certainly prepared to rethink the theory that 12.SS were not known to use turret tracks like LSSAH, but on the same token, it is unclear to me just to what extent there was a cross-over with the two units vehicles and marking styles. For example, in the case of the Pz Gren and Pz AA units, there seemed to be some kind of commonality of marking styles between LSSAH and 12.SS.
Unfortunately, despite the collection of images I have in books and on file, my information on the detailed deployment of LSSAH in Normandie is extremely limited. I'm aware LSSAH was moved west later in the campaign, but I'm wondering if some elements remained in support of 12.SS with KG Wünche, or to what extent the LSSAH cadre with 12.SS extended in its earlier deployment in Normandie- ie did it include vehicles? I'm wondering if Hans, or anybody, can shed any more light on these pics?
-------------------------
Moving on to the foggy shots posted in the previous LSSAH thread, published in Battle of Mortain. These images were stated by the author, Alwyn Featherston, to be taken at "the Abbaye Blanche crossroads"- a scene of action of the 2.SS Pz Div, not LSSAH. This eg, posted earlier shows one of the suspected LSSAH Panthers:
The following image also appears in Featherston's book and shows the front of the same Panther:
In the book Victory at Mortain, the author Mark J. Reardon includes the same photo, but identifies it as being taken in St Barthelemy, a LSSAH area of operations. It would seem Reardon's information is more accurate, not only because of the LSSAH characteristics of the vehicle, but also Featherston seems to identify at least one other image incorrectly as a " La Abbaye Blanche crossroads" photo:
I can find no evidence anywhere that 116. Pz Div was deployed in the Abbaye La Blanche area.
Excellent research on trying to figure out how the Germans organized armour. I don'n know if you have this picture because I haven't seen it posted so I thought I would post.
I found this photo in an issue of Historica magazine. the issue is July, August, September 1999. Pg.153.
It looks like the command tank from the 1SS that you have posted other pictures of.
If its the front view of the Soumont St Quentin eg, yeah, that one is usually published with the rear shot I posted (eg in Panzers in the Battle of Normandie, Panzer an der Front Bild Band, etc.)
I had half a mind to post it up, but if you can, then that'd be helpful
Thanks for the effort of researching and making connections between these pictures. Alway's inspiring. Unfortunatly, I don't have answers or additionnal pictures to clarify the enigma.
Merci Steph...Front view of Soumont Befehls Panther
April 5 2003, 4:08 AM
Despite the spread across both pages, this print is the best for peripheral details, like the signage to the left.
This view and the rear view shown ealier, is also in Thomas Anderson's Panther book by Concord (I say here a good value book and a must have, whatever the provenance of "Schmidt's" "IR Panther"). Most books with this shot point out the unusual Sternantenne mounted on the LHS, rather than in the pot on the centre rear of the engine deck.
Unfortunately, the print is too dark to determine if any "LSSAH-style" small black(?) number is on the side of the mantelet. That said and despite its apparent appearance earlier in Fontenay le Pesnil (shown above), I have a suspicion some how its seen here in Soumont as part of LSSAH. Hans may convince me otherwise perhaps...
Forgot to add- the fact the Sternatenne is seen here on the LHS, may indicate the rear pot is not there. Also, the usual Befehls Panther rack for the antennae mast poles under the barrel cleaning rod rack tube is absent. Curious.
Yes, I agree and it looks much clearer in reverse, so thanks for that. Here is a wider view of that area. It seems to be a 4. Kompanie (Batterie?) vehicle:
I'm not 100% certain its a BMW 327, but here is a view of one anyway which was linked here soem time ago (sorry I do not have the URL, anyone remember it?). I will look for the rear view I used to suggest to me it was this type...
Slight typo in the ID there. I'm not in any way a BMW expert, but I gather the BMW 327 had more streamlined front end, with the headlights integrated into the body work (there is a famous shot of Pips Priller beside one in front of his FW 190 in France).
Another excellent post Barry! Hey, you really sure do awesome research man!
You are correct, the battles for the Tilly-Fontenay areas were from June 25 until June 29, 1944. The Panzer elements of the Leibstandarte did not arrive at the front until around July 10 to 12, 1944.
So it seems, most likely, that these are in fact Hitler Jugend Panthers and not Leibstandarte Panthers. I guess, like you said, that they both did the turret mounted track idea.
again, your scholarship is outstanding. In regards to LSSAH being in Caen area around thyis date, I offer the info from Venohr's book taken from a posting about the 028 puma;
And we learn from Venohr that the Vorausabteilung (advance battalion) of the Leibstandarte was send to France with the only Schwimmwagen available. Thus this must be the advance battalion of Hauptsturmführer Karl Böttcher. After their march through Paris this battalion moved on to the Caen area by road and reports to the divisional commander of the 12.SS "Hitlerjugend" Division, Standartenführer Kurt Meyer, on June 15.
during this march Venohr also mentions the presence of Leibstandarte panthers, it is not too much of a stretch of imagination that these also went to help out HJ at this time, June 15th. Might this be the answer?
I recall Timo's recent information regarding the LSSAH advance guard's march thru Paris. It included those Schwimmwagens and Panthers you mentioned as well as possibly their newly received Pumas.
I was hoping Hans could come in and shed some more light, seeing as how Timo can't, but Hansi is busy renovating I believe.
I always thought that it was only parts of the 1st SS Panzergrenadier Regiment Leibstandarte that arrived before the end of June and that it was only around the beginning of July when parts of the 1st SS Panzer Regiment Leibstandarte arrived.
I could be wrong, though, and if this was the same Timo that I know, he would know, as he has researched for a long time and has answered many of my questions before.
here is the bit about the panther from timo's posting, and the link, sadly the pictures of the pumas have expired....
1.Kompanie/SS-Pz.AA1 LSSAH veteran Wolfgang Venohr recalls in his biography "Die Abwehrschlacht (2002, Edition Junge Freiheit Verlag - ISBN 3-929886-12-X):
[I]Hauptsturmführer Böttcher stellt eine Vorausabteilung auf, der alle vorhandenen Schwimmwagen zugewiesen werden. Lindenhahn und ich sind dabei. In Turnhout wird die Vorausabteilung der LAH verladen und im Eisenbahntransport nach Paris befördert.[/I]
...Hauptsturmführer Böttcher assembles an advance battalion with all available Schwimmwagen. Lindenhahn (note: Oberscharführer Kurt Lindenhahn of 1.Kompanie/SS-Pz.AA1) and I were there too. In Turnhout the whole advance unit of the LAH is loaded onto trains and moved to Paris
[I]Frühmorgens stellen wir uns an der Stadtgrenze bereit, und dann beginnt der motorisierte Durchmarsch durch die französische Hauptstadt. Es ist eine Machtdemonstration, das ist ganz offensichtlich. Die Franzosen sollen sehen, daß wir noch Elitetruppen zur Verfügung haben, Fahrzeuge und Waffen mit jungen Soldaten.[/I]
...In the early morning we get ready at the city border and then the motorized march through the French capital begins. It's to show our strength, that's very clear. The French must see that we still have elite troops at our disposal, vehicles and weapons with young troopers.
[I]Wir rollen langsam durch die breiten Straßen von Paris. Wir sitzen in unseren Schwimm- und Panzerspähwagen, in den gefleckten Tarnanzügen, die Stahlhelme überzogen, die MGs schußbereit. Unmittelbar vor meinem Schwimmwagen dröhnt rasselnd ein schwerer Panther der Leibstandarte.[/I]
...Slowly we role through the wide streets of Paris. We sit in our Schimmwagen and Panzerspähwagen, with camo covers on our helmets, the MGs ready to fire. Directly in front of my Schwimmwagen thunders a heavy Panther of the Leibstandarte.
What I get from this is that there were Leibstandarte Panthers in Paris when the advance guard was there. These were not necessarily part of the advance guard. The advance guard was the Puma and Schwimmwagen. The advance guard reported to HJ on June 15, the Panthers were most likely still in the Paris area.
It is also possible that in the quote there could be misquotes. Possibly misidentified vehicles as well. On June 8 it was decided to send the Leibstandarte to Normandy. June 17 they began to load on trains. On June 22 the Panther Abteilung had unloaded east of Rouen. Twenty more trains unloaded east of Paris on June 25. This comes from Normandy by Zetterling and The Leibstandarte by Lehmann/Tiemann.
I am not sure of that June 15 date.
But, somewhere there could be incorrect info, let's see if we can figure out where.
yes, in looking through everything else I could find on the subject, no-one else mentions the arrival of Venohr's unit to Meyer specifically, but all sources mention the desperate need of HJ for replacements at the end of June, and the desire of the Leibstandarte to help out, whether they could help is the point.
However, in Agte's book on Peiper, he offers info from a number of officers at the time, and they speak of the general chaos during the move up to the front, the use of trains, roads & any means possible to get to the area.
He also talks about a commander from the Panther Abteilung reaching 20km southeast of Caen by the 21st, (ok, he was only in a Kfz 15 but he got there!) There were others who also got to the area at that time.
Organised commitment to battle by the LSSAH didn't happen until the end of June, as you said above, elements of the PZgrenadier regiments, but smaller units were in the area before them!
Whether Venohr's dates are quite right or whether he can identify a panther are still open to debate...
As we all know the HJ was built up around a cadre of LSSAH personnel. The LSSAH panthers had used extra tracks in this manner since first using panthers in combat in Russia, late 1943. AFTER the sending of personnel to form up HJ.
However, like all good conspiracy theories, the simple answer can also be simply correct. Some members of HJ could have stumbled on the idea too!
Every since Barry's first post on this I thought for sure that these were LSSAH Panthers. I thought that maybe they were a part of Kampfgruppe Wunsche but since a picture has been found of the same Panther in Fontenay, which was fought over on June 25, it cannot be Kampfgruppe Wunsche since the Kampfgruppe with LSSAH Panthers was not formed until July 31. Well, at this time there was a different Kampfgruppe Wunsche but it did not include LSSAH Panthers.
I am having a hard time with LSSAH elements being in Normandy on June 15. LSSAH was ordered to Normandy on June 8 and began loading on trains on June 17. It is possible that some elements arrived by road but I doubt that Panthers would have travelled by road all the way from Belgium and made it there by June 17.
The Panther Abteilung detrained east of Rouen on June 22 and the rest of the Division west of Paris on June 25. I know that elements of the 1st SS Panzergrenadier Regiment arrived between June 27-28 to support HJ and this was the first part of LSSAH to arrive. It is possible that elements of the Panzer Aufklarung Abteilung (which Puma and Schwimmwagen would be part of) may have arrived first but Panther I doubt.
The fact that this veteran describes Panthers and other elements marching through Paris makes me think of a date when more parts of the division were around. Possibly he meant June 25 and not June 15? Right now, I believe that these are HJ Panthers and not LSSAH, unlike what I first thought.
I don't know, this is very interesting and like you said, more digging is needed. Very much fun indeed though, eh?
