I mentioned down the DG page an interesting sequence I made crappy stills of from a video Chris Leeman had copied. Here it is (previously posted some time ago). The majority of the SPW seem to belong to the Panzer-Pioneer Abteilung of 2.SS "Das Reich" Panzer-Division (there appears to be at least two from the Artillerie-Abteilung). Amongst this collection are two old Ausf C and a curious ausf D as annotated:



This sequence above is the stuff I'm asking people to keep an eye out for in their digging please. It may shed some more light on that particular mysterious Ausf D - its a long shot, but possibly it could be a similar vehicle to this familiar eg, generally also attributed to Das Reich (2.cmKwK mount seems to be from an Sd.Kfz 222 armoured car):



As mentioned previously, all the SPW in the grabs above can be seen earlier back on the road in the background on the Pathe site. I can't see any suspicious looking Ausf D, here, but at least one SPW has tried to drive through a gate on the right, so maybe the mystery 251 is out of shot:



Both the leading vehicles in the shots above and below are the same, ie "132" by the looks. The open double outline Balkenkreuz on the bins is classic Das Reich. I think the third camouflaged vehicle back is an older Ausf C, later seen in some other shots below



Compared closely, it seems "132" was later pushed off the road and flipped onto its back:


Close ups of the Befehls PzIV "779", also a Das Reich vehicle:




The 251 on its side may be "105", making it a sister of "104", AKA "Kirschke" which going by its sternantenna mount was a 251/3 (or is it really a 251/12 Roger, Dan??). That SPW was originally pushed off the road behind the Hummel "Clausewitz", but is here seen above now sitting in front of the stone building. "Kirschke" and "Clausewitz" are covered in this recent post http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=47207&messageid=1063965930

Going back to the earlier scene on the road, this ghastly scene takes place some way down the column I feel, two vehicles behind "132" seen in the earlier grab:


The same 251 Ausf C is seen here after it was shunted off the road (note the repair patch on the armour):



You can see the Hummel "Clausewitz" off to the far right, in the back ground. Also behind this Ausf C are the 251s depicted already, ie "105", "132" and the Pz IV "779" along with the same stone building, minus "104" "Kirschke".

Baz

The first photos below (previously posted ages ago), were published in Armes Militaria Operation Cobra and Sturm und Drang 250/251. They show some of the same Das Reich SPW seen further down the road in the Pathe pics in the previous post:



Close up of the Sd.Kfz 251/7:



To further illustrate the extent of the absolute debacle 2.SS Pz Div suffered at the hands of the US 2nd Armoured Division, here are some regretably poor (but at least 'new') shots from an old history published by that unit. The senior officer is Brigadier General White:



This next shot was published back to front, but is shown here corrected. It shows amongst other things yet more SPW (at least 4), as well as a Sd.Kfz 10/4 and an Sd.Kfz 7/1 or /2:





BTW, another Sd.Kfz 7/1 can be just made out in the background of a shot published in Heimdal's Invasion Journal.

Below is yet another apparent Das Reich SP Flak victim in the Roncey Pocket, this time an Sd.Kfz 7/2 with the remains of its trailer:



From (INVASION SCENES) film ID 1897.01

The rest of the Pathe grabs in the earlier post are from (INVASION SCENES) 1901.03

Baz

Hi Barry,

I don't know if this is related, but go to :

http://www.britishpathe.com/product_display.cfm?searchfilm=german+france&Search.x=36&Search.y=33&start=201

look at film #1986.01, around the lower part of the page; there are several more scenes of destroyed German armor in Normandy, including that burnt out Pz IV discussed a while back.

Always look forward to your amazing and truly incredible research !

Ed

I see they were as keen at photo collecting as we are now, back in those dark days. Take a look at those Tiger photos in frame 170 (shot of the MP40)

Andrew

That Pathe film 1986.01 was the one Lennard found that 12.SS 250 "Innsbruck" in that initail Pathe thread Ed. It shows carnage in the Falaise Pocket near St Lambert, ie some distance away and a month or so after the Roncey debacle.

These tres rares softskins can be seen on the film you referred to, a rare Ford Maultier with Einheits wooden cab - these cabs aren't common in Normandie-era photos, and to see it on a Maultier is even more unusual:



A rather groovy-looking Steyr 640 lorry:



The camo painted windsceen on the Ford V3000 in the background is a nice detail to see too (man, I really wonder how much longer it will be for a styrene kit manufacturer to cotton on and produce a kit of the Ford??? Its probably more common than Opel Blitzs in late war period photos).



Does anybody know if there is a resin kit of the Steyr 640?

Hello,
the close-ups of the destroyed pioniergruppenwagen are not close enough...
has anyone got a picture of one of these vehicles where you could actually read the licence plates?
as they belong to "das reich", they have to start with 155, but i can't read anything else.

i need this information for a modelling project i'm working on.

thanks,

stefan

Hi Baz,
what a great and epic post as usual!Thanks to save some of my time while spending yours in these searchs. I 've got the video showing the DR SPW and this /17? has already catched my attention. I will have a look and try to make a better grab.
Speaking of ?05, I am still wondering about the strange device seen between the rear doors. Does somebody know more about it? If I remember well, one caption of this pic in a Concord publication states that it can belong to a 2 cm Flak but I can't see the connection between this device and a Flak gun.

SPW 251/17 was first authorized in KStN's dated 1 November 43. They did'nt appear in proper form until after Normandy but there had always been a penchant for mounting towed weapons on both wheeled and tracked vehicles, regardless of KStN's. This 251 could well have had a field mod. 2SSPD return of 1 July does'nt help a lot, but SSPzAR2 did have 4 SPW's and 3 2cm Flak, 2 on 1 June, in I SP Detachment. I have seen a pic of an SPW 250 with 2cm Flak mounted from, as I would guess, the tail end of the Normandy campaign.

Great pics. but the bodies consequent to a mortar stonk? are depressing.

Roger

Roger,

That's the downside of this hobby: both sides made great looking vehicles, but they weren't intending them to be a part of a show, or made them for us, future builders of these vehicles.

I have to agree with you that it is not a pleasant pic, but part of the horror that is called WAR!


Piet

Hi Piet,

The other thing I thought was that 2SSPD could not afford to lose that number of vehicles in one go.

Roger

Roger,

They truelly lost a lot of material on that road!

I once read somewhere that not only the loss of material played an important role in the future battles for Germany, but mainly the loss of skilled personnel to handle the material.
Do you have an opinion on that?

This was the whole problem. The divisions could not be kept at full or near full strength in equipment. CG Guderian remarked on it in his memoirs. 'It is better to have fewer full strength divisions than many weak divisions, the panzer divisions were so sophisticated that even the loss of a few vehicles could have a disproportionate effect on it's combat capability'. Mind you, he formed Panzer Lehr Division, for which Adolf thanked him. 'Thank you, that's a reserve I had not banked on'.

Roger

You anticipated my next Q...so you say four SPW in the Artillerie-Regiment were listed, along with 3 X 2cm FlaK. I guess it doesn't specify if they were self propelled? Could the FlaK pieces have been mounted on SdKfz 10/4 (as depicted in one of those blurry 2nd AD pics above)?

From the pics we have "104", AKA "Kirschke":



...and possible "105" (should call it "?05" from now on). This accounts for maybe two of the four Artillery SPW (I stress possibly, going by its placement on the door, could it be a four-digit number, part of the Flammenwerfer-equipped 10. Kompanie ??). Like Fred asks, what on earth is that 'thing' sticking out the door, some sort of device used by engineers?:



So Roger, what about the type of vehicle's these are? You mentioned in the earlier thread the Pz Art Regt had 251/5, I thought these were pioneer variants(?). I had assumed "104" is a 251/3, going by the internally mounted Sternantenna fixture in the LH rear:



Could "104" (and maybe "?05") be more likely 251/12 Artillery spotting variants? Is this variant listed in Das Reich's Gliederung?

Baz

Hi Barry,

3 2cm Flak in Staff Bttry I/SSPzAR2 not denominated as towed or SP on 1 July. 2 as towed on 1 June. There were also 3 Obs PzIII. Actually 2SSPD was part 43 and part 44. PzAr was 43, so was authorised 1 250/2 (Or l lt c/c car), 2 SPW 251/11 (Or 2 2t c/c trucks), 2 Obs PzIII and 1 SPW 250/5. These were all in Signals Platoon. I can't find my original KStN but SPW 251/5 was either GenderPzTruppen typo or mine. There were SdKfz 10/4 in 14th Coys of SSPGR's 3 and 4 (12 + 12)shown as SP but I doubt they all were.

SPW 104 appears to be /3. ?05 should not be SPW 251/12 as discontinued in 1943. Not in KStN's of 1 Nov 43 or later revisions. Not to say there were'nt still some around. ?05 looks like 251/9, gun blown off mountings and rearwards, but what is stuck in barrel? tactical number does'nt make sense, 251/9's were in 9 to 11 coys, III/SSPGR4 2 each and 6 in 12 heavy Coy, platoon numbers should be 4 and 1 respectively. Also 6 in 4/SSPzAA2.

Radio SPW's in division as of 1 July, 1 in SSPGR3, 19 in SSPGR4, 9 in SSPzAA2 (+ 4 SPW 250), 5 in SSPzPiBtl2 and 10 in SSPzNachrDet2.

Roger

At first glance I know what you mean , the object sticking out of "?05" looks similar to a 7.5cm L/24 weapon mounted in a 251/9, but the shoulder of the thicker sleave is too rounded for any weapon of that type (that I've seen). Also there seems to be a smaller hollow sleave inside the lower end.

I am feeling more and more it is a 4-digit number. Apart from the well known 251/9 and Elbouef "1144", I have also seen a 251/16 of Das Reich which was numbered "1055". It seems plausible "?05" carries some curious equipment associated with one of these specialised Kompanies....(?)

Baz

No, I have'nt got much confidence in that object being a short 7,5cm either. However, there was more than one type. The famous pic of SPW 251/9 534 from PzAA2 had a very similar gun. See P174 of Encyclopaedia of German Tanks of WWII for this and earlier bolted sleeve. Also ?05 had an internal rear antenna (Field mod.?) which points to 251/3. SPW 251/9 would only need the standard amidships fitting.

The Elbouef SPW 251/9 1144 is AOK if it was what it says, 11th Coy, 4th Platoon, 4th vehicle, III/SSPGR4. There would also have been 2 251/1, one for commander, one for ammo and 2 251/2 (8,1cm mortar).

There was no monthly return for 2SSPD 1st August (Or I don't think so)IWM and BAMA don't have one. It's quite possible that SSPGR's 3 and 4 were converted to fg in July, as other PD's did so despite Normandy. If they did'nt, SPW 251/16 (6X) would have gone to regimental Staff Coy SSPGR4 (Not received by 1st July). If they did then to 15 PGE Coy. In either case the tactical number 1055 makes my brain hurt.

Roger