I just noticed CyberHobbies has markings for Puma #1111. They depict the markings in black with white outline. I was wondering if this was the same 1111 that has always been depicted in red with white markings in the past or if it is a vehicle froma different unit. If they are the same, which depiction is correct. Vehicle number 1111 and it's sister 111 (2nd PD I think?) were both captured by the British in France during the summer of 1944. 1111 spend a few years at Bovington Camp I believe before it ended it's live as a range target most likely. Point being that I would thing the colors worn by 1111 would be fairly understood. If these are depictions of the same vehicle, what is the new information that dictated the change in vehicle number colors.

Mike

Is the Cyberhobby decal for WH-1542940? (I bought the kit from you, but not the Cyber addons, so I can't look for myself.) If so, it's the same kfz.

I'll leave it to Baz or someone to tell us the inner workings of this kit's development. However, I'll note that in the very well-known photos of 1111 (reproduced everywhere, but I'm working from GP 74), the left-side and left-front-quarter views clearly show a tone difference between the balkankeuz's black and the numbers' "filling". However, the right-rear-quarter and top views in the same photo series show far less (really no) difference in tone. As the former looks a little overexposed or overdeveloped, and the latter looks a little washed out, and I can't think how period photography would create a difference where none existed, I'm leaning towards red for the numbers. The obvious WAG is that someone relied too heavily on the latter two photos for the Cyberhobby choice.

I now await the posting of the inevitable known-to-everyone-but-me 1947 color photos of 1111, showing black numbers.

I must agree with Cran, without the benefit of colour photos, red in-fill is IMHO more likely on "1111" and PzAA2 Pumas in general, based on what photos we do have. As Cran said it's not so distinct on "1111" (which looks to have been photographed under controlled even light), but on the other hand certainly "111" and other examples show a noticable tonal variation between the numbers and the Balkenkreuz, even taking into account the curvature of the turret and how light may or may not affect the surface.



With the aid of Photoshop sampling its more evident, although this obviously depends on your eyesight and the monitor your using:



Puma "111", as well as other egs in Normandie and the Ardennes (which were photographed under natural light conditions) show a much more obvious demarcation. Given they are all of the same unit as "1111" it makes red in-fill a better option.





Mike, even though I designed quite a lot of the decals and colour schematics for the kits I did DML box art for, they are not always followed precisely by their art department and there are some decals and schemes I had no hand in at all.

The decals/schemes in the Cyberhobby Puma upgrade are a case in point. Indeed, if I was involved I would not have recommended the black and white option for any 2. Pz Div 234/2. I also would have avoided any reference the "Pz Lehr" white "21" option, which I believe to be a spurious one, based purely on artwork which appeared in a Hors-Series Militaria Magazine, Poche Du Falaise, rather than substantiated by any photograph

I would like to be proven wrong, but until a photo of this alleged "21" surfaces, there is more evidence to suggest its a concoction (for starters the Militaria artist has made things up before, also the painting depicts a so-called Pz Lehr 234/2, but with characteristic field-mod stowage box unique to PzAA2, in place of Pz Lehr's usual factory standard LH rear jerry cans; it also has much later period Continental Gelande tyres fitted, which are not a Normandie-era feature).

Also there is a third decal option "415", based on a photo of an as yet unidentified 234/2. The claim it is "Western Front" is unsubstantiated. Frank has speculated here in his 'Time On Target' page that 1.SS Pz Div could be an option. While this can't be ruled out, all evidence to date indicates SSPzAA1 used tac numbers starting with "0" (in a similar way to PzAA20).

Cheers
Baz

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Barry,

Maybe I am missing something, but wasn't the 4. Kompanie of the SS-Panz.Aufkl.Abt. 1 the Panz.Späh-Kp.?
If so, the number 415 would not be so bad.
It happened that the former 1. Kompanie became part of the Stabs-Kompanie and thus had to change tactical numbers (is the other Panz.Aufkl.Abt. such an example?), from 1.. to 0..

Piet

Nec Temere, Nec Timide
Nur für den Dienstgebrauch

Like I said earlier Piet. However, for confirmed 1.SS Pumas in Normandie we know of "028" being filmed around July. In the Mons Pocket in early Sept we have "038" and at a similar time not too far away there is also "025" retreating. The latter two photos are private images held in Belgium, which hopefully will be published before too long.

It should be pointed out one of the appealing aspects of the '415 may be 1.SS' theory is the close similarity of its font/colour and camo style with examples like "028":



"028" looks very much to have just a two, rather than three tone banded scheme, with fairly sharp demarcations, but of course one can't be 100% certain about colours with B&W images. The numbers seem to match the tones of the B&W Balkenkruez too.



How ever many tones, "415" has a similar fairly sharp demarcation banded two-tone style, with what looks like B&W tac numbers. The fact the Balkenkreuz and number are transposed doesn't necessarily mean much, at least if the habits in other units, like PzAA2 attest.



"415" also looks factory fresh, so if one was to speculate its 1.SS, this would mean its more likely taken at the time the unit received its compliment, prior to the Normandie battles. This would suggest the Pumas were moved into the Stabs Kompanie by July, unless they were split up.

Hard to do anything but speculate when we have so few images of such poor quality.

Cheers
Baz

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So to think that "415" and all the starts-with-zero 234/2s are LSSAH, do we have to assume the photos are noncontemporaneous and reflect a change in the kfzs' assigment within SS Pz AA 1? That over the summer of '44 the s pzspwgn were moved from 4.Kp to the stabskp and renumbered (anticipating the K.St.N. by several months)? I know I'm missing something here, but don't know what.

A couple of years ago I presented a possible unit ID for Puma '415' here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/message/1017237344/>

Although I am still not able to proof it, no one has reasonably ruled out this one completely either. So I still stick to it.

4./SS-Pz.A.A. 1 is no real option for me. When 1. SS-Pz.Div. had been pulled out from the East for refit in France this included a complete reorganisation of SS-Pz.A.A. 1. The 'Kriegsgliederung' filed by the division on 1.6.1944 already shows the 4. Kp. as le.Pz.Aufkl.Kp. with half-tracks while the 1. Kp. is the Pz.Späh-Kp. with wheeled recce cars. Although the 'Pumas' had been shipped on 22.5.1944 none had arrived by 1.6.1944.
They did arrive sometime before 15.6.1944 and in the 'Kriegsgliederung' dated 1.7.1944 you can finally find them in the Stabskp. of the again reorganized SS-Pz.A.A. 1. The 4. Kp. now was the heavy support company, again equipped with half tracks. If I believe in delivery dates and OoBs given numbering any 'Puma' of SS-Pz.A.A. 1 as '415' in June 1944 (te month of arrival) makes no sense to me.

Martin Block

1.SS as an option really doesn't have a lot going for it. Apart from the photos I referred to which show LSSAH Pumas are in Stabs Kompanie, Official German documentation doesn't support the 4. Komp theory, nor the possibility of renumbering either. Rather, Martin's "4.(Pz.Aufkl.)/Lehrtruppe der Pz.Tr.Schule Krampnitzalternative" seems to make a lot more sense.

Nice to hear from you Martin

Cheers
Baz


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