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(Login DavidByrden) Missing-Lynx members from IP address 84.203.33.243
'S04' is the Tiger that was used in Wittman's photo shoot in January 1944.
The tank was built in April/May/June of 1943. If it was originally shipped to LSSAH, then it was in the April shipment.
But I keep reading that LSSAH handed over ALL of their Tigers to other regiments before moving to Italy in July. So how could they still have that tank the following year?
Yann Jouault (Login 101yann) Missing-Lynx members 62.160.123.154
Re: Regarding Wittman's S04, can anyone explain...
December 6 2006, 7:58 AM
I'm nowhere near my books but from memory S04 was part of the 27 Tigers delivered at the end of July /early August 1943 to the 13.Kp. while in Reggio/Italy for refit.
I'm building it as a May Production vehicle myself with no frames for the rear track guards, 2 spare track holders on RHS of turret only (although the spare tracks won't be fitted there), late style drive sprockets, late style Feifel air cleaners, external features for an HL230 engine on rear deck (triangle cover) and starter plate, same casting on rear louvers, loader's periscope, etc...+ proper Early Command Tiger features such as plugged hole for co-ax MG in mantlet, additional antennas on turret roof and LHS of hull roof, spare antenna tube on LHS of rear plate, 4 smoke dischargers on hull roof only...
It's just a shame that the known photo coverage is so limited as rear and RHS views would have spared us a lot of guessing !
(Login DavidByrden) Missing-Lynx members 84.203.33.243
The problem is...
December 6 2006, 9:36 AM
S04 has smoke candle launchers on the turret. These were dropped from production in early June, according to Doyle/Jentz. It also has toggle bolts by the hull MG, suggesting that it was built before July. So was it sitting around the factory while 50 other Tigers were finished and shipped before it?
Well, mixup of components is not impossible, as we know. And the fact that it's a Befehls may have slowed its delivery, or affected the fittings of the turret.
Don't forget that it has a Tiger (P) mantlet.
By the way, the triangle cover was not related to the HL 230. According to Doyle/Jentz it arrived back in March.
(Login DavidByrden) Missing-Lynx members 84.203.33.243
Photograph...
December 6 2006, 10:58 AM
Well, he's photographed climbing into a Befehlstiger on the occasion of receiving his Knight's Cross, which is supposedly January '44. It's definitely a Befehls. People tell me it's S04 though I can't read the number on any photo that I've got.
(Login Alanmccoubrey) Missing-Lynx members 82.33.87.49
Re: Photograph...
December 6 2006, 11:28 AM
If we are talking about the picture of Wittman with his crew in front of the whitewashed Tiager with all the victories marked on the barrel then is it not possible that he and his crew were called to HQ for the photograph to be taken and the BefehlsTiger had already been prepared as a prop ? He was only a platoon commander at the time so would only have had a normal Tiger and the BefehlsTigers wouldn't necessarily be from the same production batch as the other tanks. Alan
(Login DavidByrden) Missing-Lynx members 84.203.33.243
OK, so whose is the "other" S04?
December 6 2006, 11:55 AM
This photo is from TIC 2, supposedly it's an LSSAH Tiger in Italy (thanks Nate!).
It's numbered S04 and may be the same vehicle; certainly it has the smoke candles, which raises the same question about its build date and how it got to Italy so long after being built.
Alanmccoubrey (Login Alanmccoubrey) Missing-Lynx members 82.33.87.49
Re: OK, so whose is the "other" S04?
December 6 2006, 12:48 PM
David, Part of the problem is a misconception peeople have that Wittman was still in 13/SS PzRegt 1 in January 44, he wasn't. When LAH was pulled out of the East in July 43 and they handed their Tigers over 13 became part of s.SS.PanzerAbt101 which was issued the 27 Tigers in July 43 and took them East along with LAH. So it is easy to explain the Tigers hanging around for so long because that is exactly what happened, 101 was formed in July 43 and was training/working up with 1 and 2 companies until October 43. As for who used that S04 I don't know. Alan
(Login DavidByrden) Missing-Lynx members 84.203.33.243
Thank you, but...
December 6 2006, 12:56 PM
That's helpful, but the original question whas how a Tiger made in early June (at the latest) could be issued in July.
Well, I'm prepared to believe that a Befehls turret, if not a whole tank, could sit around the factory for a long time. I'll build my hull with a HL 230.
since the command tanks were very precious...able to communicate with top brass, luftwaffe, all tank companies in the batallion.... etc. I am willing to bet S04 was reserved for the Liebstandarte. About features, look at the article of James Blackwell's build (on this site) of Tiger "A" of s. Pz. Abt. 507 that was a mid-Tiger with numerous early features. -NK
Ron Hetherington (Login veezerboy) Missing-Lynx members 199.46.200.232
Has anyone heard about mechanical defects in assembly???
December 6 2006, 6:24 PM
Usally if there is an issue, say at final and the tank didn't start, it would be pushed to the side and worked on later. This is how we do it here, so why not then?? You don't want to hold up production on a dog, so it gets pushed to the side until the right people can come look at it, then it would be fixed, maybe two-three months down the road.
and I was just thinking of the Heer units that were to receive new regular or command tanks. This would require some digging as far as shipments and deliveries, and this is a shot in the dark, but maybe S04 was built and not needed by any other units for a while. Das Reich and Totenkopf received the LSSAH Tigers from Kursk, so the LSSAH needed a full compliment of Tigers...so maybe S04 was sitting around until the LSSAH needed it???? Again, just a shot in the dark-NK
I think I remember reading the LSSAH was in very short supply of servicable tanks at that time...maybe they had no other choice-but I do know Wittmann detested the command tanks because there was not as much ammo as the regular tanks. Oh, and I believe he was commanding the whole show for a while before he elft Russia.-NK
And about the Tiger delivery to 13.Kp /SS101 here's the best attempt at solving that headache that I'm aware of courtesy of good old Mick (now known as Michaela) :
Yann Jouault (Login 101yann) Missing-Lynx members 90.1.224.196
S04 in Italy photos - one more ?
December 6 2006, 1:52 PM
Besides this one of S04 :
...there is that one below that puzzles me :
The Tiger in the background has "S0..." turret numbers. unfortunately, the last digit is covered :
It definitely has to be either S05 or S04 (though no Command Tiger features are apparent), but I notice that the camo scheme on the front plate (RHS) looks strikingly similar :
While I wouldn't bet my car on this, I think it looks too similar to be coincidental and we could well be looking at S04...
(Login DavidByrden) Missing-Lynx members 84.203.33.243
Yes!!!!!
December 6 2006, 2:24 PM
It's the same tank with camouflage! Wonderful!
So, with the 2 spare track holders, it was built in May or just outside of May. We still have no idea what the engine was. But the sprocket was very probably the flat kind, and there were very probably legs on the engine hatch.
And I don't see any reason why S04 camo can't be S04 whitwash...
(Login E.Bergman) Missing-Lynx members 217.209.21.226
Well
December 6 2006, 5:24 PM
Hi David!
I think this S04 is the very same tank here as it will be found during Wittmann´s awardcermony.
Well I was about to write earlyer today that Wittmann did not use S04 during Kursk but later on. He was assign the Tiger S21. But I ended up with some things that needed my attention here.
Best regards
Ebbe
