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Units using 251/22 ?

February 25 2008 at 11:26 AM
Mattias Larsson  (Login mlarsson)
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from IP address 78.69.17.13

I'd really appreciate if anyone have any info about which units used the 251/22 Pakwagen.

I'm currently working on a small vignette including this cool vehicle and wants at least some historical accuracy in it.

Units (big or small), markings, you name it.

Thanks in advance.

/ M Larsson

 
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AuthorReply
Marc Brandes
(Login marc_brandes)
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Forum search

February 25 2008, 11:32 AM 

Try a forum search,

this topic had been discussed before, and the answer is in the archives...

best regards,




Marc Brandes

 
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Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Forum search

February 25 2008, 2:41 PM 

To save the forum search I keep these in "My favourites". Alan

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/message/1111996117/Some+previous+threads+on+the+subject

 
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Mattias Larsson
(Login mlarsson)
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Great link Alan.

February 25 2008, 3:10 PM 

Tried the Forum-search but it was like trying to find a needle......

Got alot of hits on all sort of 251's but not much on the 251/22's (no matter how I wrote).

I'll save that link to.

Cheers / M Larsson, Sweden

 
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Bryson Crowe
(Login Bryson109)
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Units....

February 25 2008, 2:40 PM 

Probably not a complete list, but these units got sd.kfz.251/22's:
17. Pz. Div.
Pz. Div. Schlesien
Pz. Div. Jueterbog
Pz.-Lehr-Div.
11. Pz. Div.


Best Regards,

Bryson
bryson_109NOSPAM@yahoo.com / Remove NOSPAM

 
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Mattias Larsson
(Login mlarsson)
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Keep'em coming.

February 25 2008, 3:15 PM 

Thanks for your unitlist, though (as you wrote) it's probably not complete.

Just need something to lean on.

Cheers / M Larsson, Sweden

 
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Martin Block
(Login Wuensdorf)
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Sd.Kfz. 251/22 and converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 in frontline service

February 25 2008, 3:21 PM 

Here's a more or less complete and up-to-date overview of Heer and Waffen-SS units using Sd.Kfz. 251/22 and or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 based on evaluation of allocation records and divisional status reports.
Conversion sets for Sd.Kfz. 251/9 were shipped to units beginning in December 1944. Trouble is that apparently some units did not visibly enter those conversions into their 'Kriegsgliederungen' so that they continue to show up with the weapon symbol for the Sd.Kfz. 251/9. With a little luck one finds evidence about that in other documents.
Another problem is that few units filed their monthly status report with 'Kriegsgliederung' due 1.4.1945 or even later. Documentation is sparse for the final months. Here a few more genuine Sd.Kfz. 251/22 and 251/9 conversions might have shown up.
So I can't and won't claim 100% completeness and accuracy for the following list:

1. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
2. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
3. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
4. Pz.Div. (conflicting evidence, use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 possible since early February 1945)
5. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
6. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
7. Pz.Div. (Either Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 in use since January 1945)
8. Pz.Div. (possible use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 since about March 1945)
9. Pz.Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since January 1945)
11. Pz.Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since January 1945, later Sd.Kfz. 251/9 conversions also possible)
12. Pz.Div. (converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 in use since January 1945)
13. Pz.Div./Pz.Div. FHH 2 (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
14. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
16. Pz.Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since incorporation of Pz.Div. Jüterbog in March 1945)
17. Pz.Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since February 1945)
19. Pz.Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since February 1945)
20. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
21. Pz.Div. (use of converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 since March 1945 possible, not 100% confirmed)
23. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
24. Pz.Div. (use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 since January 1945 possible, not 100% confirmed)
25. Pz.Div. (use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 possible since January 1945, confirmed since March 1945)
26. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
116. Pz.Div. (use of converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 since February/March 1945 possible, not 100% confirmed)
Pz.Lehr-Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since March 1945)
Fsch.Pz.Div. HG (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
Pz.Div. FHH (1) (ex Pz.Gren.Div. FHH) (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
Pz.Div. Jüterborg (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 received but division incorporated into 16. Pz.Div.)
Pz.Div. Schlesien (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use February/March 1945, then incorporated into 18. Pz.Gren.Div.)
Pz.Div. Müncheberg (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
Pz.Div. Clausewitz (no concrete evidence found for use in April 1945 just a very vague possibility)

Führer-Begleit-Brig./Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since January 1945)
Führer-Grenadier-Brig./Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)

3. Pz.Gren-Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
10. Pz.Gren-Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since February 1945)
15. Pz.Gren-Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
18. Pz.Gren.Div. ((Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since incorporation of Pz.Div. Schlesien at the end of March 1945)
20. Pz.Gren-Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
25. Pz.Gren-Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since early January 1945)
29. Pz.Gren-Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
90. Pz.Gren-Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)Pz.Gren-Div. Grossdeutschland (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since late December 1944)
Pz.Gren-Div. Feldherrnhalle (see Pz.Div. Feldherrnhalle)
Pz.Gren-Div. Brandenburg (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
Pz.Gren-Div. Kurmark (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)

1. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
2. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
3. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
4. SS-Pol.Pz.Gren.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
5. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
9. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
10. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
11. SS-Freiw.Pz.Gren.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
12. SS-Pz.Div. (Either Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 in use since February 1945)
16. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
18. SS-Freiw.Pz.Gren.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)

On average some 4 - 8 such vehicles in use per division, some had more some had less.

First division to actually report Sd.Kfz. 251/22 on hand was Pz.Gren.Div. GD on 30.12.1944.
Best equipped division was 19. Pz.Div. with 11 in 4./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 74, 4 in 4./Pz.A.A. 19 and 4 in 3./Pz.Pi.Btl. 19!

As far as I can tell no Sd.Kfz. 251/22 were issued to any independent 'Heerestruppen' units.

Martin Block
February 2008


    
This message has been edited by Wuensdorf from IP address 80.143.213.173 on Feb 25, 2008 4:03 PM


 
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leonard paul
(Login spannermann)
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251/22 allocations

February 25 2008, 3:35 PM 

Hi Martin,

Close to the end of your listing you mention the 19th Pz Div in more detail, so what exactly was the criteria used for the allocation of these vehicles, were they replacing the 251 that towed a Pak 40 ? it looks that way, them being in the 4th (s)Kp of a Pz Grenadier Rgt, the 4th (s)Kp of a Type 44 Pz Aufkl Abt, but in a Pz Pioneer Abt, that is more confusing I believe.

So is that the issue criteria, they are direct replacements of the 251 towed pak 40 ?

cheers leonard paul

 
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Martin Block
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Re: 251/22 allocations

February 25 2008, 3:53 PM 

In most cases they were replacing the Sd.Kfz. 251/9 'Kanonenzüge' in the heavy weapons companies of the armored battalion of the Pz.Gren.Rgt. and/or the Pz.Aufkl.Abt.. In few cases (like 17. Pz.Div.) they replaced the towed Pak company in the Pz.Jg.Abt.. And in one and only case, i.e. 19. Pz.Div., they were used to form a mobile anti-tank platoon in the Pz.Pi.Btl.. That may seem odd but it is not taken from any post war books or my wildest dreams but cleary shown in the actual 'Kriegsgliederung' documents filed by the 19. Pz.Div. on 1.3. and 1.4.1945 and kept in the BA-MA Freiburg.

Martin Block


    
This message has been edited by Wuensdorf from IP address 80.143.213.173 on Feb 25, 2008 3:59 PM


 
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leonard paul,
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251/22 allocations

February 26 2008, 2:52 AM 

Hi Martin, many thanks for the clarification, leonard paul

 
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leonard paul
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251/22 allocations

February 27 2008, 2:14 PM 

hello Martin,

Would the replacement of the 251/9 with 251/22 be because by 1945 the 251/9 was then condidered obsolete? or is it just a suitable chassis tha twas available at the time ?

You mention 251/9's being converetd to 251/22's, do you know if these were official or unofficial field conversion or a factory (who ?)conversion, any idea of the quantity of these /9 conversions there were?

many thanks leonard paul

 
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Martin Block
(Login Wuensdorf)
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80.143.224.5

Sd.Kfz. 251/9 conversions

February 29 2008, 7:59 AM 

Leonard Paul,

I do not know for sure who produced the conversion sets for Sd.Kfz. 251/9 into Sd.Kfz. 251/22 but I tend to believe it must have been one of the m.SPW production factories. These conversions were officially authorized and carried out by the divisional Pz.Werkstatt-Kompanie, not in the factories.

In his conferences with minister Speer on Nov 28 and 29, 1944 the 'Führer' had ordered to immediately prepare 72 conversion sets for Sd.Kfz. 251/9 and ship them to front line units in the West. This was a way to quickly improve a/t capabilities for the Panzergrenadiere.

Already on 4.12.1944 the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. reported that 60 conversion sets were on the way westward. Another 6 conversion sets had been given to Pz.Gren.Ersatz-Brig. Grossdeutschland. 32 7,5cm Pak 40 were ready for shipment at the Ardelt company in Eberswalde, another 34 could be expected by 7.12.1944.

This is the only actual production figure I have. How many more conversion set were shipped during the following months I do not know. Just this:

On 12.11945 the Pz.Korps Grossdeutschland received orders to convert all authorized Sd.Kfz. 251/9 in the divisions under its command, i.e. PGD Grossdeutschland and Brandenburg. If and to what extend the order was carried out I do not know exactly. PGD GD had a number of 'Pakwagen' but from the few records of 'Brandenburg' I have it seems they did not. Or maybe it happened at a later time not covered by my available records.

On 29.1.1945 the 12. Pz.Div. reported it had converted 6 of its Sd.Kfz. 251/9 using the Pak 40 guns of the 3./Pz.Jg.Abt. 2 and was asking for one more conversion set because the 3./Pz.Jg.Abt. 2 still had 1 Pak 40 left. At the same time the division asked for the conversion of 3./Pz.Jg.Abt. 2 to StuG or Jagdpanzer because it was now practically out of guns.

Martin Block





 
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leonard paul
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Re: Sd.Kfz. 251/9 conversions

February 29 2008, 2:54 PM 

hi Martin,
many thanks for that comprehensive data, very interesting, and as you say the conversions comply with the "orders of the day", that was to provide as many Sfl Pak as possible, as soon as possible.

The use of existing Pak (mot) to make new Pak (Sfl) is very interesting, was this the intended conversion method for all units ?, that is, to use their existing Paks, so therefore the conversion kit did not also include a Pak gun and lafette.

cheers leonard paul

 
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Mattias Larsson
(Login mlarsson)
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That answer Pak'd some punch.

February 25 2008, 4:54 PM 

I'm very greatfull for your comprehensive answer and for taking the time to write it down. Impressive.

Much appreciated.

Cheers / M Larsson, Sweden

 
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Roland Johansson
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How many were produced?

February 25 2008, 7:47 PM 

Does nybody have an idea how many Sd.Kfz 251/22 Germany produced? I guess it will be difficult to answer because some were captured before even being used. I belive I´d seen at least one photo of a row of captured 251/22 on a train.

Regards,

Roland 


 
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Martin Block
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Re: How many were produced?

February 26 2008, 2:15 AM 

From the data sheet for the Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in "Überblick über den Rüstungsstand des Heeres, Stand 1.3.1945" production figures were as follows:
Dec 1944 = 40
January 1945 = 2
February 1945 = 53
I do not have any figures for March and April 1945 neither for field conversions from Sd.Kfz. 251/9.

Martin Block

 
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Alanmccoubrey
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Re: How many were produced?

February 26 2008, 9:48 AM 

Martin, Lexikon der Wehrmacht has the figures a lot higher than that. Scroll down to find the production figures. Alan

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/sonderkraftfahrzeuge.htm

 
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Roland Johansson
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Allways these contradictionary figures...

February 26 2008, 11:55 AM 

...but this link was also contradictionary in it self about the 250/8. The text said, as I understood it, production of 250/8 was in fall of 1944 but the table show production started in 1943. My o my!

Cheers, Roland.


 
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Martin Block
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Re: How many were produced?

February 26 2008, 1:15 PM 

Alan,

I wrote that my figures are those officially recorded for Dec 1944, Jan 1945 and Feb 1945. I also wrote that I have no idea how many were produced in March and April 1945. Panzer Guru Tom Jentz gives the same figures in his Panzer Tracts covering the Sd.Kfz. 251 series and even he hasn't found any documents for production in March and April 1945 and so I feel pretty save with mine. Actually I wonder where the LdW figures come from and how trustworthy they really are!

Martin Block

 
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Cran Smith
(Login crnfrd)
208.63.90.38

One specific 215/22, slightly off topic

February 27 2008, 9:07 AM 

At p 70 of Tomas Jakl's Kveten 1945, there's an image of a 251/22 with a wolfsangel on the gunshield, along with another marking. Tomas' caption says it's a Pegasus. So 19.PD (the wolfsangel looks like theirs, not the FHH one), but is it PzGren R 73/74, or who? Does this marking ring any bells with anyone? Thanks.

 
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