Was those vehicles used in Africa ?

Tanks, Hilton.

No.

That is to say the Herman Goering Luftwaffe vehicles. I don't know though if they were officially designated Sd.kfz.251/17. AFV and Dragon do refer to them as such though. According to Jenz (PT No.12)nine of these were sent to Tunesia in 1943.Jenz may well be wrong about this but I wouldn't know about that.

Cheers,

Arjan

i've never seen any photographs showing these in north africa. i have my doubts. i think they were used exclusively in southern russia. this would be a good topic for some definitive research though... the question has come up a couple of times.

Gray Creager
asicsuccess@86yahoo.com - remove the "86"

Hi Gray,
I agree the fact that there is no photographic evidence of their presence in Africa is suspect. Especially since there are so many pics of this theater,and pics seem to exist of even the rarest vehicles. Besides these vehicles would be hard to resist for anyone with a camera (and even in those days there were plenty of cameras around). I've noticed before that Jenz is by no means infallible and especially the older PT issues do contain mistakes.

Cheers,

Arjan

The 251/17 did not go into production until late 1944 and so was produced exclusively as a D variant. The records are not clear as to when production commenced. It is possible that some were produced as early as July 1944 but there is no conclusive evidence. Any 251/17 that existed prior to late 1944 would have been a field modification and there are numerous examples of these. The vehicles used by the Hermann Goering Division with the fold-down sides were not 251/17s.

Sam Wren
Abilene, República de Texas

"All dressed in uniform so fine//They drank and killed to pass the time//Wearing the shame of all their crimes// With measured steps they walked in line" They walked in line - Joy Division

Sam, We're talking here about the special Luftwaffe version with the folding sides which was trialed by 18./Flak Regt HG in 1942/43. This one may or may not have officially been called a 251/17 but certainly that is how pictures of it are often captioned. Alan

SAM,

well.... according to Dragon ... and we know how accurate they can be. they produced with Cyberhobby a 251/17 C command version ... it exisited??... but i'm not sure how many were fielded, or if in fact it is a mistake some where down the line calling it a C if in fact is a D ??













WHAT DO YOU CALL THE ASSASSINS THAT ACCUSE THE ASSASSIN???

Some previous threads on the subject

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1175017066/Hermann+Goring+division+history

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1170435009/How+late+was+the+251-17+C+in+service-

WHAT DO YOU CALL THE ASSASSINS THAT ACCUSE THE ASSASSIN???

DAN,

Thanx Dude.... i missed that last time.... thanx again for th pix !!!!



WHAT DO YOU CALL THE ASSASSINS THAT ACCUSE THE ASSASSIN???

That's the answer no one seems to want to accept. I just don't know whence comes the idea that there was an official designation of Sd. Kfz. 251/17 ausf C. Jentz is very circumstantial in PT 15 about the /17 designation being new in '44. My guess is that postwar Allied writers knew that a "251/17" had a 2 cm Kwk, and just back-extrapolated to ausf C to describe the photos of the LW things. Good enough for the Encyclopedia of German Tanks, and obviously also good enough for Dragon even today. It's also possible that the LW or the HG just decided to use the designation themselves as it was the next number on the variant list, but that would need documentation. Jentz certainly doesn't use the /17 designation in PT 12.

That thread from a couple of weeks back goes into the nomenclature question, but I think I'd rather see primary documentation, or at least hear about someone having seen same, to buy into the Sd Kfz 251/17 designation for these things.

That would include a primary-source record of something going to Africa using that designation, of course. There's that organization chart in the Otte book, but I've never seen it and it sounds iffy.

CRAN,

i'm with ya on that!!!! i'd like to see on here some sort of official response from .... may be mr. Jentz... if possible it could very well be a Post-War miss labeling by the Allies or th H.G. adoptded it themselves.... it's very Puzzlin' & confusing !!!



WHAT DO YOU CALL THE ASSASSINS THAT ACCUSE THE ASSASSIN???

...Jentz is not the place to get it. Maybe he has a provision in his will to have a final volume published posthumously containing all of his documentation.

And while I cannot comment authoritatively on the origin of the attachment of the designation 251/17 to the Hermann Göring Division SP 20mm auf 251, it is known that KStNs were issued in 1943 (don't know the month off hand) allocating 251/17s, so the plans for a 20mm version of the 251 were in existence long before they began to leave the factories. Those units that were organized according to KStN that included 251/17s filled them in various ways. Based on photographic evidence some were filled by regular 251/1s while other units employed field modifications in which 20 or 20ish mm guns of German, French or Italian manufacture were employed. Das Reich, for example used what appears to be the 20mm gun from an Sd.Kfz 222 and Hitlerjugend had at least a few that had Breda and/or Hotchkiss light cannons (again, going from memory, can't remember which). According to Dugdale 1.SS was reporting that they had 16 Sd.Kfz 251/17s on strength as of 15 June! It is not clear, though, whether these were official, from-the-factory 251/17s or field mods. Certainly there are no known Normandy wrecks of "official" 251/17s with the Schwebellafette.

So, pretty much from every angle you approach the 251/17 one encounters enigmas.

Sam Wren
Abilene, República de Texas

Nigel: (After playing a bit of beautiful piano music) "I'm really influenced by Mozart and Bach. It's a Mach piece really"
Interviewer: "What do you call it?"
Nigel: "This piece is called "Lick my Love Pump".

It's possible that somehow there was use of the Sd Kfz 251/17 in the last half of 1943, and it's yet another of those gaps in information that Jentz idiosyncratically believes doesn't require mention and should be discerned by careful parsing of what he actually does say. Do that in any profession and get laughed at, but I suppose panzer research provides a safe haven for some quirky behavior. As reading any random page of this forum clearly conveys.

I admit minor error, in that the date Jentz first associates with the designation is in late 10/43. I supposed it's possible that there were anticipatory K.St.N.s, although given that production on 251/17 ausf Ds didn't start until late '44, that's a lot of anticipation. Certainly everything I've ever heard about the "251/17s" in Normandy indicates that they were field modifications.

All this aside, there's still nothing to associate the designation with the HG vehicles or anything else with a 2 cm Kwk except the ausf Ds. Like those 15.PGD halbketten with the 10.5 haubitzen, the "Sd. Kfz. 251/17 ausf Cs" were Sd. Kfz. 11s unless someone knows something new on the subject.

I contemplated a response incorporating "Big Bottom", but a sudden and rare burst of good judgment came over me.

Sam Wren
Abilene, República de Texas

Nigel: (After playing a bit of beautiful piano music) "I'm really influenced by Mozart and Bach. It's a Mach piece really"
Interviewer: "What do you call it?"
Nigel: "This piece is called "Lick my Love Pump".

I learned a lot, and I will go for the Sicily option.
Tank you very much!