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(Select Login SfanGoch) Missing-Lynx members 72.225.174.12
Re: KwK
November 8 2009, 4:42 PM
KwK means Kraftwagenkanone - It literally means powered vehicle gun. Used mostly to designate tank or self-propelled guns.
Now, regarding the designation "8.8cm KWK 36 L56":
"8.8cm" indicates the caliber of ammunition
"KwK" as previously noted, indicates that this is a vehicle-mounted gun
"36" indicates the year that the gun was accepted into service, eg, 1936
"L56" indicates the length of the gun, in multiples of the inner diameter of the barrel, measured from the tip of the muzzle to the breech. That means 8.8x56=492.8, the length of the gun is 4928mm; 56 times the caliber of the bore.
This message has been edited by SfanGoch from IP address 72.225.174.12 on Nov 8, 2009 4:45 PM
(Select Login SfanGoch) Missing-Lynx members 72.225.174.12
Re: Well, I am ready to bet...
November 9 2009, 1:08 AM
I beg to differ with your disagreement, Stefan. A gun could be mounted on anything. "Kampfwagen" means fighting vehicle, Panzerkampfwagen" is an armored fighting vehicle, such as a tank, whereas, "kraftwagen" means motor, or self-propelled vehicle. KwK indicates that the weapon can be mounted on a motor vehicle, including a tank.
Check out Tom Houlihan's exhaustive reference "Kriegsprache".
(Login Stefan_Krakow) Missing-Lynx members 85.158.139.99
Hi Joe,....
November 9 2009, 6:56 AM
I hope for your understanding that I will not check US-/UK- based websites to explain me German abbreviations. This would be like me giving you a lecture on spelling of English words.
I don't think the two of us will come to a conclusion on this one, as I would be able to list a longe line of references backing up the Kampfwagenkanone theory. Starting with the most obvious one:
(Login zappa93) Missing-Lynx members 96.250.114.84
KwK...
November 9 2009, 5:53 PM
...stands for KampfwagenKanone. Without trying to sound like a "know-it-all", I have to say that there is no question about this designation whatsoever.
The term does NOT refer to the fact that the gun is mounted on a "vehicle". It refers to the MOUNT, in this case a mount for a tank gun.
For example, the 7.5cm KwK40 is a the 7.5cm long gun as seen on the Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.F2/G, H, and J.
Following the logic that it means KraftwagenKanone does not stand up simply because the SAME 7.5cm gun, when mounted on a StuG.III Ausf.F, F/8 and Ausf.G, is designated 7.5cm StuK40, because of the MOUNT. Both are "vehicles" so why the different terms?
The 7.5cm KwK42 L/70,is designated as such when mounted in a Panther's turrert. It is designated as 7.5cm PaK42 when mounted inside the casemate of the Panzer IV/70.
Short explaination: KwK means Kampfwagen Kanone. Period.
(Select Login SfanGoch) Missing-Lynx members 72.225.174.12
Re: KwK...
November 10 2009, 1:55 PM
Yo, Frank.
It does indicate that it's a vehicle mounted gun, regardless of vehicle type. Your example makes my point because the basic nomenclature for the gun is Kraftwagenkanone. When it is mounted in a tank, it's a Kampfwagenkanone; when in an assault gun, a Sturmkanone. The terminology differs only to the application of the weapon.
(Login Stefan_Krakow) Missing-Lynx members 84.174.49.47
One last try.....
November 10 2009, 5:34 PM
... I know I maybe shouldn't do that, but here goes - something to consider:
- Google generates 78 hits when searching for Kraftwagenkanone
- Google generates 11.200 hits when searching for Kampfwagenkanone
This alone of course doesn't proof a thing, other than that most of the rest of the world is wrong and you and 77 others are right.
Your quoted manual (which, by the way, does contain some very few spelling errors in the German words...) actually does list both words. A manual from 1944, relying on secondary (?) sources (I wonder what emigrant typed this one up...), is something which maybe, maybe should be taken with a grain of salt after 65 years of experts evaluating original documents.
All documents and literature I ever came across do refer to a Kwk as Kampfwagenkanone. However: There was quite a bit of development in the armoured branch of the Wehrmacht-Heer going on, specifically in the 30s (see the various name changes during this time). There was already the branch before there were any tanks, and it might be possible that in those early stages the main gun was refered to as Kraftwagenkanone. It might even appear in an army manual - there is well documented evidence that one and the same vehicle is listed under a dozen and more different names/designations in official army documents. Why wouldn't the same be possible for a comparitively minor thing such as an abbreviation for a gun? I don't know - I hope somebody else does.
Still, the majority of publications refer to a Kwk as Kampfwagenkanone. For whatever it is worth...
Regards from Germany,
Stefan
[Ex- tank gunner, ex- tank commander, ex- tank platoon leader, still knowing a thing or two (but not more than that!) about Kwk]
This message has been edited by Stefan_Krakow from IP address 84.174.49.47 on Nov 10, 2009 5:53 PM This message has been edited by Stefan_Krakow from IP address 84.174.49.47 on Nov 10, 2009 5:41 PM
(Select Login SfanGoch) Missing-Lynx members 72.225.174.12
Re: One last try.....
November 11 2009, 9:25 PM
You're on target about the nomenclature differences prior to a dedicated armored branch in the Wehrmacht, Stefan. Let's put this one to rest.
Auf Wiederhören!
Joe Zrodlowski
Ex-Airborne bullet stopper, ex-small arms technican (depot level), ex-mechanized heavy squad leader, ex-anti-tank gunner. I still remember how to kill tanks, regardless of nomenclature. <smiley intended here>
The primary responsibility of an NCO is to teach and prevent 2nd Lieutenants from killing themselves and everybody in their platoon. Good soldiers are an irreplaceable resource, officers are 90 Day Wonders.
(Login panzergranate) Missing-Lynx members 62.194.154.59
Re: KwK...
November 10 2009, 3:38 PM
Hey Frank,
I'm with you on this one.
In German nomenclature only tanks received the designation "Panzerkampfwagen", the point you made about different designations for the same weapon in different vehicles being valid because of the original intended use for the vehicle in question.
A Stug for instance was a mobile ARTILLERY piece (stug batteries originally being subject to "rule" by the artillery, not the armour guys), not originally intended to be in armour versus armour combat. This is why the Kw.K 40 in a Stug is referred to as StuK 40.
Same goes, as per point made by you, for e.g. the Kw.K. 42 being reffered to as PaK 42 in the JPzIV L/70, the vehicle not being a tank, but a tank hunter again, originally, subject to different tactical doctrine in the PzJ Kompaniën in stead of being part of the tank units (that things turned out differently in reality is only because the war wasn't going all that well from a German perspective so they were forced to make a different use of their means than the original intended use).
