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(Login SEDimmick) Missing-Lynx members 18.104.22.168
Nice kit, yes, but really need...NO
April 17 2012, 7:38 AM
Why repeat efforts of another company that has a very fine representation of an Elefant/Ferdinand out on the market for years now? The could have gone the "cheap" route of offering a BT-7M, which no one else does a decent one of and most everyone wouldn't be bitching about it.
Peter Griffin: Any problem caused by a tank can be solved by a tank.
(Login Parkadge1) Missing-Lynx members 22.214.171.124
From the HLJ website:
April 17 2012, 8:44 AM
"The Elefant joins the MM kit series! This is an ALL NEW TOOLING from Tamiya! (Photo shows the previously released Master Series finished model, built from the Dragon kit.
This is an ALL-NEW TOOLING of the Elefant! Tamiya based this kit on the Elefant on display at the Aberdeen Tank Museum. Tracks are injection-molded assemblies with nice sag molded in. Includes three figures. Again, this is an all-new tooling by Tamiya, not a reboxing of any other company's kit. All new, all Tamiya!"
(Login petarted) Missing-Lynx members 126.96.36.199
Really...... Tamiya WTF?
April 17 2012, 3:43 AM
Why are they doing a Elaphant? The dragon one is great and you can get it with zimmerit. You know the tamiya kit will not come with zimmerit but only with three or four PE parts. What do they take us for rubes?
The world would rather have a BT-5 or a Israeli M-50
This message has been edited by petarted from IP address 188.8.131.52 on Apr 17, 2012 3:45 AM
(Login FJCabeza) Missing-Lynx members 184.108.40.206
We´re not sure
April 18 2012, 12:27 AM
There´s a story about a small , bald, man with a tiny mustache that left "El Valle de los Caidos" a few days ago, but returned like mad next day after reading the newspapers...Someone heard him saying: "Carlitos I told you to shot only goats , not elephants"
Johannes Schneider (Login canjuaan) Missing-Lynx members 220.127.116.11
April 17 2012, 7:53 AM
I can't tell you how much this announcement has made my day Can't wait for the first pics to appear.
Knowing Tamiya kits, it will be a vast improvement over the DML kit. Not that the latter is bad, it is very well done, actually, but the fit is not great and there is always room for improvements. I put high hopes in the Tamiya Elefant and trust my expectations will be met by the usual Tamiya ingenuity.
When Tamiya announces a new kit, it usually hits the market not long after, right?
This message has been edited by canjuaan from IP address 18.104.22.168 on Apr 17, 2012 7:54 AM
Dragon "new announcement" looks to me, very much like the previous 6317 Premium edition of the Ferdinand with a second tool box and some additional markings added. Anybody else see any huge differences that warrant buying this over the old one apart from availability and a higher price.
Yes, I also have the first issue so I guess I will have to fix the hatch detail, the "reversed" bolts and I do believe I have aftermarket tracks. I also have the Italeri one with photoetch, which I plan to build (which has incorrect angles underneath the rear hull thanks to Aberdeen). I doubt I will buy the Tam one for these reasons but it'll be interesting to see how they go about it.
Missing the big armored fairings between the deck and casemate front as per the APG example. Actually it has one of the fairings but the real tank had 3 and all 3 are not identical so you have to scratch build the center and right side ones.
(Login sdl1331) Missing-Lynx members 22.214.171.124
ferdinand / elephant
April 17 2012, 6:07 PM
i agree with you. i build last year the premium ferdinand and a good kit. have the elephant with zimm unbuilt but look very well. no want another ferdinand / elephant.
and tamiya kit are very expensive...the tamiya jagdtiger are a bit expensive with few etch parts...could be better
Stephen J. Pringle (Login stevepringle) Missing-Lynx members 126.96.36.199
April 17 2012, 3:14 PM
I sure hope for a 48 Elefant and "Ferdie" ! Anything is better better than some fantasy/paper project and it's variants. Now that all the gammers are happy hopefully! Maybe tamiya will man up and produce a bergepanther DAG
Why should Tamiya be kept from making money on a nice new German kit, especially since detailed models are a sideline for them? Honestly, I bet it will be a good kit. Also, since Tamiya in the last six months gave us two Israeli Shermans and the Engima T-55, it was time for another WWII 1/35 release. Besides, a sure money-maker like this might just fund more innovations like the Char Bis. It is a great day!
I've always wished that Tamiya would introduce an Elephant kit someday, and that day has come! And if Tamiya scales it down to 1/48 scale at some point, I agree, that would really be great. And yes, I have a Dragon Premium Elephant now and it looks good, but there's something about Tamiya kits that's special for me. As for some of the negative comments, no one has a gun to your heads, if you don't like the choice Tamiya has made, simply move on. As I've heard said, Germans and Shermans are what sells. : ) Edward
(Login MikeRoof) Missing-Lynx members 188.8.131.52
Ho hum... boring...
April 17 2012, 4:00 PM
Really, is the best that the industry "leader" can do?
Where's the innovation and daring that Tamiya showed when they released the "Char B1 bis" of the "French Carrier UE"?
Yes, yes, yes, I'm sure the kit, if actually all new tooling, will be well engineered, reasonably acurate, simple to assemble and have nice instructions. But none of that makes me particularly interested, much less excited. Add that the price will probably be about on par with DML's Elefants, and then what do we have? Not much really, IMO.
Do you want a Big Mac or a Whopper? How about a Wendy's single with cheese? Oh boy, Mr. T, another Elefant!
There are so many important AFV's that have never been kitted or were kitted so long ago that their subjects really do need to be revisited in a state-of-the-art kit. But all Mr. T can give us is a warmed over re-hash-mish-mash of a subject already fairly well done by others.
Very disappointing if this is all that Tamiya has to offer armor modelers this year.
(Login F4dphantom2) Missing-Lynx members 184.108.40.206
Another German tank oh boy
April 20 2012, 7:35 PM
I guess Germany (in Tamiya land) was the only World War II country that produced tanks.The French, British, and Russians sat idly by with nothing in armor.Heck even the Japanese had tanks.I'll pass on it and build a Elephant with Zimmerit from Dragon.Where is my T-10M Mr.T or a Japanese tank from WWII.Or a new tool Stug III or IV or Jagdpanzer IV if it has to be German.
(Login partisan77) Missing-Lynx members 220.127.116.11
April 18 2012, 2:25 PM
if it compares favourably to the Dragon kits i'll buy it but it makes you wonder why of everything Tamiya could do they go for an Elefant.
Tamiya have really surprised us in the last few years and i'd love to see them continuing with more WW2 British/French/Russian tanks (in 1/35!) - they could even get a few interesting variants out of their existing moulds (i.e. BT-7 mod 1937).
any new tools from Tamiya are always welcome but i hope they're saving a big announcement for Shizuoka
This message has been edited by partisan77 from IP address 18.104.22.168 on Apr 18, 2012 2:26 PM
Can't understand what all the whining is about.....
April 18 2012, 3:28 PM
It always surprises me how upset, offended, disappointed, call it what you will, people get when a company release something that isn't on their own personal wish list or duplicates something they've already got in their stash!
Some people love to build Tamiya kits, some love to build Dragon ones, add your favourite here, why shouldn't the Tamiya fans have a brand new, state of the art Elefant kit?
The recent Tamiya Jagdtiger is a perfect example, Dragon already have a couple in their catalogue, but Tamiya approached it their own unique way, giving their customers & fans exactly what they were hoping for, sure it has a couple of very minor things that need tweaking, but it also gets things right that Dragon didn't so now we have a choice, surely that's a good thing?
I personally have a couple of friends, who's names I won't mention here, but who are regarded among the very best modellers in the world, without question & both of them would opt to build a Tamiya kit rather than a Dragon one if both are available & dimensionally accurate, it's just personal choice, wether its the feel of the plastic, the colour, the instructions, whatever...
It wasn't too many years ago that the choice of what we armour modellers got to build was very limited, now the choice is massive & the new releases don't look like they're going to slow up any time soon, so complaining that company 'A' is wasting their time or letting you down or shouldn't do something because company 'B' or 'C' has already made one is frankly laughable.
Darren. ( who personally can't wait to have a new Tamiya Elefant, to go with his Dragon ones!!)
(Login sdl1331) Missing-Lynx members 22.214.171.124
it's a choice
April 18 2012, 5:47 PM
if the same kit are lauched at same time the choice will depend what modeller like.
you are saying about the tamiya - dragon jagdtiger with different original launch kits.
but if you comprare the early stug 3 g the choice could be different.
after 35 years building ( and destroy too ) kits the tamiya - dragon could be informed:
tamiya= perfect fit , some simplificated details ( tools ) , few parts , very fast build , no metal parts and a expensive kits.
dragon: wrong instructions, many pieces, great details , metal barrels in some kits , etch parts, complex to build , so many rework/packaging of same models and if anyone can wait some time after lauch .. a low price than tamiya for an simmilar kit.-
Tamiya are just "putting us on" they`re having a laugh with this supposed release - what they are really going to release is a brand new tool Somua S 35 ( which will include an optional cupola ! ) and a BT-5 using some of the parts allready found in their BT-7 kit - modellers honestly didn`t think that a company which brought us such an inspired and sublime a kit as the BT-42 would release such a hackneyed subject as the Elephant - do they ?
(Login mattd8589) Missing-Lynx members 126.96.36.199
Swing and a miss
April 19 2012, 8:21 AM
My point is, look at any new release announcement and you'll see that the negative comments usually outnumber the positive comments. And the negative comments are usually from guys who aren't planning to buy the kit anyway. I just feel like complaints (different than criticism) should be saved until someone actually sees the kit in person, or here's a crazy idea - actually builds it.
(Login MikeRoof) Missing-Lynx members 188.8.131.52
That's the whole point...
April 19 2012, 10:02 AM
of making a negative comment.
Of course I don't intend to buy a kit that I don't want. My comments to the effect that I don't want this kit is the expression of that sentiment. However, I don't see why my making a negative comment about this release should bother anyone else besides the manufacturer.
That there are so many negative comments should be telling the kit maker that they're no meeting the needs of their potential customers with this product. Or in other words, if you want my business, give me a product that I want or need. Don't develope a product and then tell that I should want or need it.
Tamiya is just another big business, in the business of making money. They're not your buddies or friends and they don't release kits to make any of us happy. They do it to make money.
If they're interested in making more money, then they should heed the feedback that they get about their releases- good and bad. If they really want to make even more money, they would do well to actually ASK their market what they want rather than foster on their customers what Tamiya says they should want simply because it's Tamiya that's releasing it.
This release is like some clothing designer announcing his latest Summer fashions and expecting that just because of name recognition, people will flock to the stores to buy them. Even worse, it's like a fashion designer who can't come up with an original idea releasing a new line that's derrivative and has already been done before.
I'm sorry (well actually not), but I see no reason to give Tamiya or any other kit maker some special allowance and groveling gratitude just because they deign to toss a bone to the masses.
If someone loves Tamiya kits just because they're Tamiya, fine. Enjoy the new Elefant and sell all the others in your stash or build your first Elefant because none of the other kits were to your satisfaction. But, don't give me grief because I'm not pleased with Tamiya's latest news.
I want and expect more, and if Tamiya's not giving me what I want, then no one but Tamiya should have any stake in my saying so.
Absolutely my comments are negative, and I have no intention of buying this kit. But it's my right to say so because if I don't, how can I expect that Tamiya will know what I do want from them?
Your observation made me smile, because it's true.
"This release is like some clothing designer announcing his latest Summer fashions and expecting that just because of name recognition, people will flock to the stores to buy them. Even worse, it's like a fashion designer who can't come up with an original idea releasing a new line that's derrivative and has already been done before."
Well, for well nigh 20 years of my career I was an Art Director on the fashion industry, and that is exactly what they DO try to sell you. Well, at least until T K Maxx anyway. In the 1980s one esteemed British female Couture Designer actually bought a huge consignment of Levis 501s, poured acid on them and sold them on as her own brand. And they say irony is dead.
(Login mattd8589) Missing-Lynx members 184.108.40.206
April 19 2012, 2:04 PM
I wasn't even sure where to start, so let's just tackle this in order:
"That there are so many negative comments should be telling the kit maker that they're no meeting the needs of their potential customers with this product. Or in other words, if you want my business, give me a product that I want or need. Don't develope a product and then tell that I should want or need it."
- Uh, no. Do you seriously think that Tamiya chooses to research, engineer and produce an entirely new kit and then try to convince you that you need it? I guarantee that there was a good deal of market research done before this decision was made. Like it or not, this decision was probably based on the sales of past Elefant kits.
"Tamiya is just another big business, in the business of making money."
- Now you're getting it!
" They don't release kits to make any of us happy. They do it to make money."
- If you really believe this, then why are you complaining when the kits they release don't make you happy?
"If they're interested in making more money, then they should heed the feedback that they get about their releases- good and bad."
- They do, its called "sales numbers." Good and bad feedback happens in the marketplace, not online.
"If they really want to make even more money, they would do well to actually ASK their market what they want rather than foster on their customers what Tamiya says they should want simply because it's Tamiya that's releasing it."
- While Tamiya may be concerned with the "market," or every model builder out there, they know that the easy money comes from their brand loyal customers. They know the Elefant sells well. They know that the thousands of model builders who prefer Tamiya would buy a Tamiya Elefant. It was a no-brainer decision to make, really. And yes, people do buy Tamiya just because it's Tamiya. That is called "Brand Loyalty" and it's the holy grail of advertisers everywhere. People like to feel good about their purchase decisions and they tend to stick with brand names that reinforce those feelings. Like it or not, you've already made multiple brand loyal decisions since you woke up this morning (Breakfast, clothes, car, computer, web sites...)
"I have no intention of buying this kit. But it's my right to say so because if I don't, how can I expect that Tamiya will know what I do want from them?"
- I love it when people do my work for me - you answered your own question here. Tamiya will know you didn't want this kit because you didn't buy it.
I have no problem with negative opinions of kits, I just hate how people stampede to their keyboards as soon as they discover that the newest release isn't on their own personal short list of kits.
(Login MikeRoof) Missing-Lynx members 220.127.116.11
You miss the point entirely...
April 20 2012, 12:18 AM
Sure the Tamiya Elefant was probably based on the sales of other Elefant kits, just like so many other consumer products are based on competitor sales of like-products. Snatching a little slice of someone else's market share is a tried and true way to make a buck (or a yen, as the case may be).
Unfortunately, that's the worst and least innovative side of consumerism. I don't have problems with having a choice, but if the choices available don't actually satisfy my needs, then the manufactuerer isn't going to get my business.
What's more to the point, no manufacturer is going to get my business until he offers the product I want.
Trying to capitalize and stake one's business success on brand loyalty is a fool's game. Consumers are loyal only as long as something better doesn't come along. Brand loyalty is fashion vogue to the extreme. It's not founded on an objective reality but rather on consumer perception which is fickle and ephemeral.
This is where Tamiya's small-minded approach lets me (and many others) down. Rather than use their talent and resources to satisfy an un-fulfilled need, they just take the lazy route and scramble for a chump's share of the existant market while hoping that their name is enough to differentiate their incremental product variation from their competitor's.
However, there is no way that Tamiya (and other manufacturers) can actually know that I'm not buying their product unless I tell them. And there's no way they can know why I'm not buying their product unless I tell them. I am not the existant consumer. I am the potential consumer.
You can't know and count the sale you never made, only the one you did.
This is why my saying that a "new" release isn't on my list of desired kits is more than gratuitously "stampeding to my keyboard." If I (and others) don't express our needs or desires, then no one can know what they are. If Tamiya chooses to not listen to us, perhaps some other kit maker will. If that other kit maker provides what I want, then they, and not Tamiya, will get my business.
People who believe that number crunching sales figures will tell them all they need to know about an un-tapped potential market are just kidding themselves. Companies that rely on such data have lost their competitive edge to others who will exploit the demand that they themselves can't or won't see. When the former are running the latter, their downfall is closer still.
(Login mattd8589) Missing-Lynx members 18.104.22.168
This has been fun
April 20 2012, 12:42 AM
I can see where you're coming from, I just don't agree entirely. I left out a TON of branding wisdom that I have accumulated through 25 years in advertising - I just didn't want to bore you with it. (Heck, just thinking about it bores me).
I'll leave it at this. The choices you see as "lazy" are the choices I see as "safe." Companies like Tamiya need safe choices to fuel the more daring, exciting choices. You had better hope that the Elefant sells well, because the money from that may very well help to fund the Diamond T Wrecker Tamiya is probably sitting on. I do know that I'm going to run right out and buy a Tamiya Elefant, build it, and title it "Look what you're missing, Mike!"
Like I said, it's always fun to spout off and end up having someone make me think. If you'll be at the AMPS show next week, maybe we can slug it out in the parking lot.
Alan Mckenzie (Login BigAltheMac) Missing-Lynx members 22.214.171.124
Is it part of some modellers make up....
April 19 2012, 10:05 AM
It seems to me that for some modellers not only is there enjoyment in taking a lot of parts and putting it together to create a model, many also enjoy and feel the need to pull it apart as well.......that's before they've even built it, or even before they've seen or got it...