Hello to all;
I just finished reading Panzer Tracts 9-2 abot the Jagdpanzer IV / Panzer IV/L70 and must say: again Jentz and Doyle managed to uncover some news about a vehicle about we thought we knew everything (e.g. different roof lengths !).
However,after reading some questions arose, which weren't covered in the text.

1)at first 30mm strip hangers for the Schuerzen were used before they changed to the smaller hangers made from pressed steel. When did this change happen?

2)Some of the first Jagdpanzers during spring '44 still had the early hubcaps like the Panzer IV H "mid". Until when these cast hubcaps were used before changing to the forged ones?

3)The spare track holder was relocated to the rear from spring '44 onwards, but one vehicle from March production had a short bar as track holder while another already had the longer bar as track holder. But to confuse things more photos of a May production vehicle show this again with the short bar track holder. So what was done here? Can somebody shed some light on this?

I know thes q's are not easy to answer, but I'd like to hear your opinion.
Last word: this Panzer-Tracts volume made me pulling out my old Dragon 9021 Jagdpanzer IV /L48 from the stash and I even plan building it !

TIA
Markus
Dedicated Jagdpanzer and Stug-fan

Hi Markus

[Firstly, let us discount the IV/70(Alkett) here, which is a totally separate vehicle in every way, and concentrate on the Vomag models.]

Whilst PT 9-2 is a truly great piece of research of course, the first thing I did when getting this book was got out the steel ruler. What J & D don't make clear is that the roof lengths between the Jagdpanzer IV L/48 and the IV/70 varies yes by up to 30mm, but the major contributor to this is still the thickness of the front gunbox plate. For inst, if you discount this and merely measure the roof plate of the Vomag vehicles the roof plate itself varies in 1/35 scale by less than .5mm from the earliest L/48 to the last IV/70. In addition, the slight roof difference in the 'late' L/48 roof (w/80mm front) as opposed to the 'early' IV/70 roof (w/80mm front) is no more than a couple of line thicknesses, and based on research gathered from a single surviving vehicle.

So was this a consistent difference on all of them? If the Vomag series is anything like other German AFVs there were often marked difference is production run dimensions, for inst the bottom plate on the big panzers often varied in length by quite a margin dependant on various factors, the difference made up in the welding process. Turret front plate angles varied. Allowable armour tolerance was +5% on all panzers. And so on.

Also, many 1/35 kits currently on sale are still far less accurate than the originals or even the the best of the plans, particularly between manufacturers where there are often considerable differences in shapes, angles and dimensions, and probably no kit is 100% accurate in every major dimension.

What I mean to say is, I won't be losing any sleep over such a tiny difference if I decide to update one of my Johann Hubers as a late L/48 alongside the latest IV/70 Smartkits, as Eyeball No.1 (the best arbiter imo) won't be able to detect the sub-half-mill difference in length. If, in fact, this was truly a difference and not just an aberration in production.

Ron

That what model builders need to hear; good work. -MB

I like the way you think.

Cheers,

Christophe

Itoo have just got my PT9-2 and have spent a couple of enjoyable days with it. However, as well as the Qs that started this thread I have one major problem with some of the PzIV/70(A) section. Particularly in relation with the Samur vehicle. The textbreportsvthe chassis number as that of a vehicle produced in Jan 45 and relatesbmuchnof the discussion around this vehicle to this "fact".

Checking the well known images of this capture on the ECPAD archive site their captions indicate tthis vehicle was captured by the French in the area around the Col du Bonhomme by the Division d'Infanterie Algerienne. And the date of the series of photos is given as Dec 44.

http://www.ecpad.fr/?s=panzer

Additionally it is clear from the photos that the PzIV/70(V) was finished in an "ambush" scheme which would put the production in Sept 44. All the features evident on the vehicle also point to this production date. There seems to be real anomalies between these two possible dates - they can't both be right?

Craig(8whees-good)
http://8wheels-good.blogspot.co.uk/

Craig

Yes the ambush scheme would on the face of it put production at Sep 44, though I think there is evidence to suggest that some factory ambush use carried on later, so it's a muddy area if dating is dependent on the scheme. Vomag for inst may (tentatively) have carried on sometime into October, but most probably not Jan 45!.

It's clear now why Dragon stalled production of their IV/70(A) this year, as the roof of this certainly will have a visibly shorter look than the Vomag models. Poor Tristar.

Ron

I suppose another way to check is to find out which units were fighting in Alsace in the winter of 44. Then we can cross check with the table on the last page of PT9-2. My money is on ii/PzRgt 2 who got their PzIV/70(A) in Nov 44

Craig(8wheels-good)
http://8wheels-good.blogspot.co.uk/

http://roman-bizarre.blogspot.com/

Hi Roman

I have 2 x CyberHobby Johann Huber Pz.IV/70 kits in my stash, but the kit is not accurate as a IV/70, having a mixture of 60mm lower and 80mm upper frontal armour, a too-thin L70 barrel/mantlet, too-thin and underdetailed roadwheel sets, crap tools etc. So I plan to build both as Panzerjager IV L48s at some point in the future, alter the armour and gun details to match and update with spare parts from the IV Smartkits, new tools, Magic Track and the latest DML or AFV Club suspension. Possibly one early (60mm basis) and one late (80mm basis). I also have sets of the Atak zimmerit (of both types) which I plan to use to finish these.

However, about Hubers IV/70 itself Im afraid you have the wrong idea. I have no plans to build either kit as Hubers own mount, and have no knowledge of any photographs of his personal vehicle other than the illustration on the boxart. But I wish you luck in finding one.

Ron

Purely a modeller's perspective (again).

When I received my Dragon IV/70 and later the IV/70 w/zimmerit kit, I also got out my Revell Jagdpanzer IV L/48 and one of my Johann Huber IV/70 kits to compare old with new.

It appears that all of these old 'Imperial' series kits are in reality only really buildable as they stand as Jagdpanzer IV L48s, as all are based on the 60mm front hull armour going by the interlocks, even the Johann Huber despite its 80mm gunbox front (so is incorrect unless there were actually hybrids produced).

However, the good news is that there are quite a few extras from the IV/70 w/zimmerit kit (because of its zimmeritted duplicate sprue) including hull front parts and hatches, that can be used to update a Johann Huber or Revell Jagdpanzer IV into a crisper L/48 with 60mm or 80mm armour basis. The basic kits are still pretty good dimensionally and suitable recipients for this kind of crosskitting. This kind of 'rescue operation' can be fun if you take your time.

Dragon will no doubt produce an L/48 at some point, and I'll no doubt buy at least one, but many of us won't want to throw away what are basically sound kits.

Ron