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Tiger I steelwheel prototype combat use?

December 4 2012 at 12:05 PM
Ron Owen Hayes  (Login ronrunningman)
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from IP address 78.190.133.20

Hi guys

I wonder does anyone know what happened to the Early-Late Hybrid model Tiger I that was used to mount the test steelwheel supension? I refer to the one on pages 55 and 100 of Spielbergers 'Tiger and King Tiger Tank and Their Variants' and has the Glysantin-type cicle with numbers '131' on the lower front plate.

It has a unique array of features - binocular driver's sight, smoke dischargers, kinked sideskirts, scalloped late model hull front horns, twin headlamps, first pattern track cable stowage and the steel wheels.

So I wondered if it (presumably it was an it and there weren't more of the same) actually saw action.

Ron

 
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AuthorReply
David Byrden
(Login DavidByrden)
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80.108.12.65

We should look for it

December 4 2012, 12:26 PM 

in the various end-of-war ad-hoc combat groups.

It was chassis 250053, built in December 1942.

David

 
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Alan McCoubrey
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82.33.201.169

Re: We should look for it

December 4 2012, 3:55 PM 

David, I just obtained a copy of Ron Klages's monograph of the Tiger "Trail of the Tigers" and according to the listing in that Chassis NUmber 250053 was issued to 4.SSPR 1 on 25th December 1942. Are you saying that new information means that this is incorrect ? Alan

 
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David Byrden
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Yes...

December 4 2012, 5:07 PM 

but it's not new information, it was published in "Germany's Tiger Tanks : D.W. to Tiger I" twelve years ago.
We have newsreel of the tank driving around the test range, its chassis number visible.

David

 
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Ron Owen Hayes
(Login ronrunningman)
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95.14.170.239

Dates

December 4 2012, 6:10 PM 

Hi guys

Thanks for the immediate comeback. It all comes down to the date I expect, the date on which the tank actually was sent into combat if at all. If it was based at presumably Sennelager (so nearby Paderborn?) at least at some time for the film to be taken it would seem to indicate that two units would be favourite here, Gruppe Paderborn and Kompanie Hummel springing to mind. Both were in action in the vicinity of Paderborn in April 45 according to Ron Klages and both fielded a variety of ex-training oddity Tiger Is. However, without a photo or other paperwork we'll probably not get further clarification.

Ron


    
This message has been edited by ronrunningman from IP address 95.14.170.239 on Dec 4, 2012 6:12 PM


 
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Chaz Spaulding
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One other question about this particular vehicle

December 4 2012, 7:04 PM 

I assume this Tiger had the earliest style of turret with the pistol ports on both sides and not an escape hatch on the right side. Are there any known photographs of this Tiger that would give an answer? If not, any speculation would be interesting.

Thanks to any and all,
Chaz

 
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David Byrden
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Don't have the photos....

December 4 2012, 8:11 PM 

I can see that it has the extended hull front and the rear toolbox frame, which usually but not always came after the escape hatch.

David

 
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Chaz Spaulding
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Thanks for that David

December 4 2012, 11:21 PM 

I'm glad to hear that it is a very good possibility. I don't know why, but I somehow want it to be so. That would be an interesting build. I would have to assume that it is probably gray also.

Chaz

 
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Ron Owen Hayes
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MP-Klappen

December 5 2012, 2:33 AM 

Chaz

I agree, that would be even more interesting if 2 x MP-Klappen. If you haven't seen the Spielberger photo it doesn't look grey or even braun though, but overall very pale like dunkelgelb. Though if it saw actual use it could be anything, as Hummel and Fehrmann for inst had a wide palette of camo colours from 3-colour (including the wheels) to oversprayed 'dark' (rotbraun? olivgrun?).

Ron

 
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David Byrden
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Camouflage...

December 5 2012, 4:38 AM 

The film of it driving around, shows it in a very subtle camouflage. I've enhanced this frame to show it (ignore the shadow of the gun);

[linked image]

So I would bet on a tropical scheme.

David

 
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Ron Owen Hayes
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Re: Camouflage...

December 5 2012, 6:00 AM 

Thanks David,

Wow, like a jigsaw the pieces come together. It'll turn up in someone's back garden next...

A tropical scheme with some european foliage onboard, a set of tac numbers and all these features driving through Germany would make for a truly bizarre Endkampf Tigger. Here's hoping it jogs someone else's memory. Ron Klages would have been the ideal guy to have around...

Ron

 
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Michael Kenny
(Login march5)
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82.23.206.183

Ron's information.........................

December 5 2012, 7:19 AM 

was the info at the back of TIC 2..
There is list of chassis numbers and the assigned unit.
Jentz also has issue tables at the back of Tiger I&II Combat Tactics

They differ in that LSSAH got 10 Tigers in Dec/Jan according to Scneider but only 9 are listed by Jentz.
Either way they seem to have had 10 Tigers on strength.


    
This message has been edited by march5 from IP address 82.23.206.183 on Dec 5, 2012 7:20 AM


 
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Ron Owen Hayes
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Re: Ron's information.........................

December 5 2012, 11:01 AM 

Thanks Michael

I didn't know they had that list there, so have bookmarked it for the future. I have to say I'm disappointed though, LAH who'd have thought it. Oh well on to other mysteries...

Ron

 
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Ron Owen Hayes
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Hold the presses...

December 8 2012, 3:55 AM 

Wouldn't that mean that the steel wheel suspension would have had to have been developed at least before December 1942 to have been fitted to this Tiger that then went into LAH? I didn't think it had been that early considering it took until Feb 44 (13-14 months later) to fit to Series Tigers.

Unfortunately I can't find information on how early the steel wheels were ready.

Ron

 
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David Byrden
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LAH?

December 8 2012, 4:31 AM 

This Tiger never went to LAH. It was confiscated for use on a testing ground and upgraded there.

 
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Ron Owen Hayes
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Not LAH then

December 8 2012, 9:40 AM 

David

That's more like it. So it's open to discussion still, brings us back to your comment "We should look for it in the various end-of-war ad-hoc combat groups." This is the same production standard (Early turret, Late hull) as the Tiger that later starred in the 1950 Film "They Were Not Divided" though as that one had zimmerit it's probably not the actual one.


And TIIF should maybe read thus:

SS.Pz.Rgt. 1 "SS LAH"
250053 received in December 1942³

Waffenamt
V1 (Tiger I) received in 15 April 1942
V2 (Tiger I)¹ received in February 1943³
V3, Turm Nr. 88 (Tiger I)¹ received in December 1942³
250001 received in 17 May 1942 (without turret)
250053 confiscated for use
280009 or 280012 ("Porsche" Turm)

Ron


 
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Chaz Spaulding
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Ron, it is not really a "late" hull.

December 8 2012, 4:43 PM 

Apparently the Germans changed some things as a development model. It has the kinked side skirts, binocular sights over the drivers position, and the twin headlights. Yes, it has the notched front cutouts for the tow cables but it has to be an early hull. I hope I'm not being too critical as I realize you may just be describing the general configuration of those machines (end-of-war ad-hoc). Anyway, I know we both like the hell out of this particular Tiger. Sorry if I took your statement wrong.

Chaz

 
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David Byrden
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It's not that one...

December 8 2012, 4:55 PM 

The Tiger in the film had straight side fenders and the mantlet casting was quite different.

David

 
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Chaz Spaulding
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David, is this Tiger you speak of the one.....

December 8 2012, 7:21 PM 

........on page 99 of Jentz and Doyle's "D.W. to Tiger I"?

Thanks,
Chaz

 
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Ron Owen Hayes
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Chaz, That's not what I said

December 9 2012, 4:17 AM 

Hi Chaz

Yes, that's the one, and yes you got me wrong I'm afraid. All I said was this: "It has a unique array of features - binocular driver's sight, smoke dischargers, kinked sideskirts, scalloped late model hull front horns, twin headlamps, first pattern track cable stowage and the steel wheels." I didn't comment on why or when.

Being a late 1942 chassis of course it wasn't a Late hull. It was pretty obviously just used to testbed a few items that would later be standard fitment.

And no I don't think this one ended up in the Film either, I was just making comparisons.

Ron

 
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