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Suggestions for a good small diameter punch and die set ?

June 14 2017 at 2:21 PM
jerry rutman  (Login jrutman53)
Missing-Lynx members
from IP address 64.121.182.244

A vendor for same would also be appreciated,my old sets are about done after a faithful 25 years or so service.
J

 
    
AuthorReply
Andrew deeley
(Login deeley)
Missing-Lynx members
86.185.222.156

RP Toolz

June 14 2017, 2:47 PM 

Hi
RP Toolz look very good. I particularly like the way they have keyed the Hez dies to ensure accuracy and punch life. Something the old Historex one don't do.

I don't have a RP Toolz set but looking to buy one as they do different sizes my Historex don't do..

http://www.rptoolz.com

Regards
Andrew

 
    
jerry rutman
(Login jrutman53)
Missing-Lynx members
64.121.182.244

Thanks Andrew !

June 14 2017, 2:54 PM 


 
    
Alasdair Johnston
(Login Ali_1_KJ)
Missing-Lynx members
86.152.11.213

RP Toolz = Rip Peoples (designs) Tools

June 14 2017, 7:19 PM 

Always sad to see people selling/buying copies of other peoples designs.....


    
This message has been edited by Ali_1_KJ from IP address 86.152.11.213 on Jun 14, 2017 7:21 PM


 
    
Kurt Laughlin
(Login Kurt-Laughlin)
Missing-Lynx members
98.236.111.248

A punch is a punch is a punch

June 14 2017, 7:35 PM 

And a finger brake is a finger brake is a finger brake. Every punch or bending tool out there is the just the same idea or design that has been around since 1875 or so. To claim that some novelty for any design is just a sign of ignorance of what has come before.

KL


    
This message has been edited by Kurt-Laughlin from IP address 98.236.111.248 on Jun 14, 2017 10:56 PM


 
    
Alasdair Jonhston
(Login Ali_1_KJ)
Missing-Lynx members
86.152.11.213

really strange defence

June 15 2017, 2:10 AM 

I find it strange that people would scream blue murder if I took a really nice figure or resin engine/detail part: make a few changes and cast it but are happy to promote/accept this type of activity even if it is legal (costs to much to challenge) to do so.

original:
[linked image]


and this is the "oh look I drew this and did not know about the other"
[linked image]

I do not fully understand your defence to be honest.



    
This message has been edited by Ali_1_KJ from IP address 86.152.11.213 on Jun 15, 2017 2:30 AM


 
    
Andrew deeley
(Login deeley)
Missing-Lynx members
86.188.32.219

Original

June 15 2017, 4:04 AM 

Hi Alasdar

Personally I would never knowingly promote copies or infringements of subjects.I actually own one of the 'original ' in your post.

However to be honest I've seen demonstration on forming brass/lead/ alliminum sheet using male/ female formers going back to the 1970's - replicating corrugated sheet sheets in the old Mil Mod mags. Also train modellers have used similar ideas for a long time as their use of brass long predates our use. So the idea is not exactly new.

Yes the designs are nearly the same but to be honest any former will follow the same format and if the 'original ' design is the ideal size then any others will be close otherwise they are not ideal. I think it's a bit like saying Revell paint brushes are copies of Winder and Newton paint brushes because the hairs and handle are the same way round and simiar length.

Another example are all the etched metal saws now available. The first one I remember were the Trimaster ones from Japan Due to cost and not ideal design plus they were hard to obtain others took the idea and improved it. Now there's lots of manufacturers saws to choose from of which some look practically the same as others.

Finally I haven't seen the ' original ' around for some time, is it still available?

Sorry you feel the way you do. The 'orginal' was maybe the first one on the market aimed at plastic modellers and the ideal size for us but it's not really 'patentable' so hence not original.

Kind regards
Andrew

 
    
Arild Moland
(Login astralscooter)
Missing-Lynx members
94.139.87.154

Re: really strange defence

June 15 2017, 11:36 AM 

I dare say there's a significant difference between making pirate copies (or even slightly modified copies) of a figure or resin detail set, and a simple tool like a etch rolling set or even a punch and die. The amount of creativity and effort going into the design really cannot be compared.

After all, if I wanted to begin selling hammers or screw drivers, there's really only so many ways to make these things. And an etch roller set or a punch and die set, is right in there with the hammers and screw drivers.

The two roller sets you show don't seem to share the selection of roller diameters either, which will make for a lost case in a copyright infringement case too. It would be a rip off if RP copied the other set right down to the slotted edge, but they don't. Not by a long shot. A non issue indeed.

Arild

 
    
Mike Roof
(Login MikeRoof)
Missing-Lynx members
97.107.103.222

Quality, Functionality and Utility can...

June 15 2017, 11:51 AM 

Vary widely even among tools with essentially the same mechanical designs.

Sure, a finger break is a finger break until you start comparing the durability of one made from machined aluminum and another made from molded plastic. Both tools may work equally well at first, but the plastic tool will certainly not last as long before its working surfaces are worn and "bunged" by the brass PE.

The same might be said for two finger breaks both made from machined aluminum but with different degrees of fit and finish. The tool with more "slop" in its parts fit may be nearly unusable when brand new if thin PE parts cannot be firmly and securely clamped up.

Of the two PE rolling tools shown, the Small Shop tool has features that give it much more utility than the RP tool. The Small Shop tool has a rubber forming platen on its reverse along with the additional forming grooves and channels. The RP tool is not just a "copy" of the Small Shop tool, but it's also likely to be less useful for many tasks that the Small Shop tool can be used for.

And so it goes...

There's more to the comparison of similar tools than just their basic designs.

 
    
Kurt Laughlin
(Login Kurt-Laughlin)
Missing-Lynx members
65.222.251.100

True, but . . .

June 15 2017, 12:36 PM 

. . . you can't claim the rights to quality, fit, finish, or durability. You can only lay claim to an original idea ("novelty", in legal terms) and there are none here. The idea to use a tool to clamp and form metal or a die to bend it into a shape has been around for well over a century. It doesn't matter who came out with the first modeler's PE bending tool in the 80's or 90's because it wasn't their idea. So long as the follow-on product isn't an exact copy, the first producer has nothing.

The blather about "we'd sue but a lawyer costs too much" has been going on for years and it's been ******** from the start. The reality is that no IP lawyer would even pursue such a case because it has no chance in hell of ever succeeding. The effort needed to adapt a well-known and long-existing tool (a finger or box brake) for a new application (to bend .005 thick brass) is utterly irrelevant because effort isn't rewarded, novelty is.

KL

 
    
Alasdair Johnston
(Login Ali_1_KJ)
Missing-Lynx members
86.152.11.213

Images

June 15 2017, 4:11 PM 

I think the images speak for themselves Kurt no matter what bluster and smoke about quality etc etc...

............ I will leave it there

 
    
Kurt Laughlin
(Login Kurt-Laughlin)
Missing-Lynx members
98.236.111.248

Here's what speaks for itself, in distilled form

June 15 2017, 7:31 PM 

1. Unless the other product is an exact copy, you have no legal standing to prevent them from making their product.

2. You have no legal standing to claim anything about a metal bending or forming tool. The idea dates from the 19th century. It is not your idea. You can't prevent someone else from making something that does exactly the same thing in exactly the same way.

3. If you want to sell more, provide a better value to your customer through higher workmanship, utility, accuracy, and durability and stop crying.

KL

 
    
Alasdair Johnston
(Login Ali_1_KJ)
Missing-Lynx members
86.152.11.213

Not mine anymore:

June 15 2017, 8:32 PM 

Keep up Kurt

No1 Never said otherwise

No2 Images speak for themselves = copy. The rest is excusing low moral practice and you know it is.

No3 I do not sell tools and have not for a VERY long time.....crying ? do not be pathetic, the roller IS a copy design, use your own eyes.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I advise you to stop defending the principal as it is obvious what has happened here despite the "legalities" of the act.

I am pleased to see the morals of the market are alive and well.....as always.

 
    
Mike Roof
(Login MikeRoof)
Missing-Lynx members
97.107.103.222

UMM-USA

June 14 2017, 10:45 PM 

Jer,

I've found that the UMM-USA tools are a good value.

http://www.umm-usa.com/onlinestore/index.php?cPath=21_145

HTH,
Mike


 
    
jerry rutman
(Login jrutman53)
Missing-Lynx members
64.121.182.244

Thanks Mike ! This one looks the best so far

June 15 2017, 10:15 AM 


 
    
JohN Harris
(Login JCHarris)
Missing-Lynx members
86.11.62.28

A minor point

June 15 2017, 4:15 AM 

But would not this thread be better located in the 'General' forum? I know some modellers would never look at the Axis or Allied forums, I think you might get further responses in the 'General' forum.

jh

 
    
jerry rutman
(Login jrutman53)
Missing-Lynx members
64.121.182.244

Thanks but this is the only forum I check so

June 15 2017, 10:16 AM 

this is the one I asked on.
J

 
    
John Harris
(Login JCHarris)
Missing-Lynx members
86.11.62.28

I'm guessing Allied rivets are much the same as Axis ones (n/t)

June 15 2017, 11:43 AM 

n/t

 
    
jerry rutman
(Login jrutman53)
Missing-Lynx members
64.121.182.244

And your post also explains why most serious modelers are

June 15 2017, 12:44 PM 

flocking to Facebook and participation is way down here. Was all that really necessary ?
J

 
    
John Harris
(Login JCHarris)
Missing-Lynx members
86.11.62.28

Re: And your post also explains why most serious modelers are

June 15 2017, 1:08 PM 

I can only apologise if I touched a raw nerve there, I was merely trying to suggest that you might get a larger response in the General forum.

You question resulted in a discussion regarding piracy anyway.

As to the self proclamation of being a "serious modeller", can I politely suggest that there are plenty of serious modellers who don't build Axis models, I meet them on Facebook.

jh


    
This message has been edited by JCHarris from IP address 86.11.62.28 on Jun 15, 2017 1:10 PM


 
    
 
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