German tank colorsSeptember 16 2017 at 7:06 PM
|Carl-magnus (Login Negerkungen)|
from IP address 18.104.22.168
I have bought a paint set from Ak, or Mig, and it has two variants of the dunkelgelb color. Eh?
Panzertracts say there were only one color ever, in the article on this site.
I am confused!
You're confused! So were the factory workers...
|September 16 2017, 8:05 PM |
Use both! What is the poor factory guy supposed to do when the old batch of paint runs out halfway through a job and the new batch of paint isn't mixed properly? Oh, wait... hold the war?
Be inventive. Be adventurous! Use both! Half + half. Left, right, top or bottom... you pick. What better way to imbue light & shade without moving the vehicle?
N.B. email address is a re-director to my real one. It's never used to send by me.
* Fidonet - 3:640/384 (IP: quinnspost.nodelist.net - binkP - news:60119)
There were numerous variations of RAL 7028, in the normal process.....
|September 16 2017, 8:15 PM |
of producing paint in many batches in different factories. There also were at least three official variations: the original limited color "Dunkelgelb nach Muster" from early 1943, the "official" RAL 7028 "Dunkelgelb", which was the standard for this color for much of the war, and RAL 7028 "Dunkelgelb ausgabe 1944", a new standard to replace the previous RAL 7028. It was a darker and much greener olive green color, intended to correct the main defect of the standard RAL 7028: too bright and too light for the heavier foliage of Europe and the northern and western Russian campaigns. However, the standard German practice of using up older paints first probably kept the 1943-44 standard color in use for most of the rest of the war, as long as supplies held up. There are known examples of the "ausgabe 1944" version being used, but it would be almost impossible to tell from B&W photos which colors were in a particular camouflage scheme. To make matters considerably worse, there are plenty of smaller items (ammo boxes, jerricans, etc.) painted in the pre-Nazi era Reichswehr colors. Waste not, want not.....
Re: There were numerous variations of RAL 7028, in the normal process.....
|September 16 2017, 8:33 PM |
"Dunkelgelb ausgabe 1944", was that the green base coat that was to be applied from nov. -44?
|John Dillon |
|September 17 2017, 7:30 AM |
The primary color to be used in factory camouflage from late 1944 on was olivegrun with dunkelgelb and brown applied as secondary colors. Calling the green a base color is a bit misleading because as I understand it to save paint the green was applied only to areas that would appear green and not the entire vehicle. Yellow and green were to be sprayed directly over the primer on their intended areas. Lower hulls and roadwheels would be sprayed with the primary green. This was the procedure that was intended but how it was done at the factories in practice is another thing.
When greenish is used to describe the late dunkelgelb it is more of tint to the color rather than a full-on green. Earlier dunkelgelb had what is often described as a brownish or tan tint. Paint colors often appear to change due to lighting conditions which helps to further confuse the topic.
Hope this helps a little.
Dunkelgelb and Olivgruen
|September 18 2017, 9:30 AM |
No, the "Dunkelgelb 1944" was not the new "green" base which was to be applied after November 1944.
AFAIK this was a paler shade of the normal Dunkelgelb due to paint production problems during fall of 1944 and was used as camoflage color for example on King Tigers, Panzer IVs and StuGs from November 1944 onwards.
The darker/richer shade of Dunkelgelb in your set (1945 late war Colors?)would have been used from January to October '44,
but as others have mentioned in this thread the dates are fluid because the manufacturers first used up stockpiles of old paint before changeing to a new coulor.
Hope this helped a Little
|September 19 2017, 9:53 AM |
first of all, if you are looking for the exact hue of dunkelgelb, non of these products is close to it. The article of panzertracts is very old and not complete at that point. Mr. Culver is right, that in the case of the production-process and other circumstances there were many little variations. On the other hand, as repeatet over and over again, without thinking, without any primary source (official and original color sample, correspondence...) known, there were not 3 official variants of dunkelgelb, but only two: RAL 7028 (02/43, yellow-tan-grey) and RAL 7028 Ausgabe 1944 (10/44, green-gray). They still exist. "Dunkelgelb nach Muster" was not a third hue, but a provisional designation for RAL 7028, before it was registered at RAL and their standard collection "RAL-Farbtonregister 840 R". The expression "...nach Muster" is and was a general designation for unregistered hues. The change of RAL 7028 to RAL 7028 Ausgabe 1944, intentionally ordered by OKH, had nothing do to with problems of the production process, but with its appearance itself. It is true, due to existing smaller equipment painted in that hue, that RAL 7028 Ausgabe 1944 was used indeed. So far, there is no known surviving part, which shows, that it was used on tanks, too, but maybe one day it will come to light.
|September 19 2017, 10:12 AM |
as You are following this post, can You pleas update us about Historycolors book expected publication date?
Would it be bilingual German-English?
Maybe you missed the update...
|September 19 2017, 2:42 PM |
| Panayotis Dimitrakopoulos|
Purposedly change of all 3 basic colours in '44-'45?
|September 19 2017, 5:31 PM |
I know that this thing has been going on for ages, but untill now and from a modellers point of view I thought that the 3 basic colours changed somewhere in '44 to different shades.The mid 43 scheme was Dunkelgelb-which I thought-was a rich dark yellow,Olive Green which was rather dark (and I've read somewhere that there is a chance that the Germans used another dark green for a short period presumably flaschen grun,which came from the pre war stocks of that green)and Red Brown which had a quite reddish hue.Then came the '44-'45 scheme with a lighter pale DG,a much lighter green(Resedagrun?)and finally chocolate brown which was darker and not reddish anymore.Is any of that correct or we-including myself-keep recycling false interpretations just because we want lots of variety on our painted models?
The problem is...
|September 20 2017, 5:57 AM |
that you have to make a distinction between the standard of the hue and the final paint-product in practice. The standard, RAL colour cards of RAL 6003 and 8017, did not change from 1940 to 1945. Only RAL 7028 changed into RAL 7028 Ausgabe 1944, an isolated act! Paints may always show a little variation but f.e. not in a range from a dark green to a light green, because all of them had to pass through the acceptance process, which based on technical terms of delivery (TL). The TL contained the specific RAL-codes as standard for the hue. If the hue of the paint was too far away of the standard, it would not have passed the acceptance process.
Flaschengrün? Well, the camouflage colors of the former Reichswehr were used and produced until summer 1937. Flaschengrün, one of them, was RAL 6007 (28). So this would mean, that paints produced in 1937, were in stock almost 6 years, before they were used again in 1943. Still in 1938 the maximum storage time of synthetic enamel paints were 3 months and not before 1939 it was a maximum of 12 months! The same with the Reichswehr brown RAL 8010 (18). Resedagrün, which means RAL 6011, was never mentioned in a TL.
In pratictice there are a lot of reasons, why there were darker or lighter colors (mixtures, other colors than the TL-paints, tests, different dilutions, thin layers, weathering etc.).
|September 20 2017, 5:20 AM |
I didn't missed the update, just hoped for newer informations since March and (wrongly) hoped for a planned solution for international readers.
|September 20 2017, 6:35 PM |