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Sturmtiger prototype

July 10 2001 at 3:20 PM
Paul Libner  (no login)
from IP address 213.76.98.31

Hi
I've heard rumours that Sturmtiger prototype was used against Polish Home Army during Warsaw Insurection in 1944. Anybody can confirm/denay that info ?
Ps.Are there any photos of that vehicle available
"on line" ?
Regards

 
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AuthorReply
James Blackwell
(no login)
198.142.164.163

Sturmtiger in Warsaw

July 10 2001, 11:27 PM 

Hi Paul,

I don't know for sure which one it was, but 1 initially, then 2 more were definitely in Warsaw from St.Mrs.Kp.1000 in Aug-Oct '44.

As a wild arsed guess though, it may well have been the reworked prototype or at the very least, one of the really early ones, as most were used in the West against the Brits and Americans, but the Russian's did capture one in their battles which is now in Kubinka so around Warsaw is as good a guess as any for this to have happened. Theirs has many of the initial features (less venturi holes around the muzzle vent ring, extra grooves in the barrel rifling, bolted appliqué nose armour etc.) so you never know.

Theres a shot of it upon capture at Michael Svirin's Site;



Plus a few more shots from other angles in the Russian "TankMaster" Mag issue from Jan 2000.

Sadly in general theres not a whole lot around on them. Apart from the odd photo, I've seen the occasional still shot in some Japanese Tank Mag specials from the brief video footage of one firing alledgedly from the attempt to level Warsaw in Poland (eg; http://www.737thtankbattalion.org/sturmtiger.htm at the bottom of the page), but theres also a murky firing shot from the other side of the same or perhaps another vehicle at the link below which I can't recall ever seeing in print before, which may be of some interest:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/1167/esturmti.html

As to units, camo, markings and even no.s produced for that matter, theres a lot of conflicting info and grey
areas out there from book to book. I've seen claims of 2 Companies 1000 & 1001, or 3 numbered 1001, 1002, 1003, etc. and numbers of only 10 or 12 built through to 20 etc., etc.

But Dr. Leo Niehorster posted a fairly detailed (and more importantly - substantiated) breakdown on AFV News' D/G back in May '99, based on original lineage and org charts he holds which listed 3 Companies raised: 1000, 1001 and 1002, each theoretically having 3 Zugs (platoons) of 2 vehicles each at the end in 1945 (ie. thus "theoretically" meaning 18 issued?). But whether they all reached full strength in the field is still unknown. Paraphrasing his post and throwing in a bit I've picked up from other sources:

St.Mrs.Kp.1000 - raised Aug. 8 '44, sent a zug (which comprised only 1 Sturmtiger at this early stage before later being upped to 2), to Warsaw in Aug.'44. With another zug attached to Pz.Bgde.109 in Hungary on 10 of Sept. '44 (overstrength with 2 vehicles), and the last again only with one vehicle, to Meaux in the West on Aug 25 '44 . The 2 vehicle Sturmtiger platoon from the Hungarian campaign, returned to join the other one in Warsaw on Oct 20, before the unit as a whole was sent to the Ardennes in Dec., before finally transferred to the Artillerie Inspectorate and redesignated "Sturmmorserbatterie 1000". on 23 Jan '45 - with strength upped to 6 vehicles, but lost most of them near Tier. No mention of any losses prior to the Ardennes which is a mystery re the Russian one).

1001 was raised on Sept. 19 '44 and sent to Oberbefehlshaber West on Nov. 11 '44 participating in the Ardennes Offensive in Dec. too, and also redesignated to "Sturmmorserbatterie 1001" on Jan 23 '45. Under Hauptmann von Gottberg, 1001 apparently destroyed all its remaining vehicles east of Bonn.

1002 was raised 14 Nov. '44 sent to Oberbefehlshaber West in early Dec.'44. From Wolfgang Schneider's "Elefant-Jagdtiger-Sturmtiger; Rarities of the Tiger Family"; 1002 was the last of the 3 units formed, and first saw action with its six Sturmtigers in the Reichswald area. In March 1945 the Company was moved back across the Rhine at Rheinberg, it then saw action on R223 near Dorsten and Kirchhellen, retreating eastward via Polsum, Marl and Datteln. Due to lack of ammo their Sturmtigers were destroyed or rendered U/S east of Datteln and the company was taken prisoner near Menden in the Sauerland. Sturm-Mörser-Kompanie 1002 was under Oberleutnant Zippel and the probable owners of the exotic stripey ambush scheme ones such as APGs and the one captured near Menden?

Most shots show the camo schemes as either a large dot ambush scheme (or also just a heavy 3 colour one, but which could also just be a dust covered big dot ambush too), or the other main one is a speckled type stripey ambush scheme. Most are so dusty though its tough to tell what they are really wearing underneath.

Also see the Schiffer s/c on "Elefant , Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger" or the yellow-covered Klein and Kuhn "Tiger a Legendary Weapon" book for more. Its sadly still very murky re their exact history and ops.

While by no means comprehensive re all the published shots on each one in every book, heres a basic list of the 8 individual Sturmtigers I've found photos of so far, with a brief summary of their details which I posted last year which may be of interest:

*******************************************************

1. "Mild Steel Prototype":
Features:
- Early tracks
- Early rubber tyred wheels
- Bolted appliqué nose armour - with large bolts
- Straight hull tow shackle
- 4 "L" angles welded on glacis round gun
- Fewer holes in venturi muzzle ring than later vehicles
- More numerous rifling grooves than later vehicles
- Machined step in barrel
- No counter weight on muzzle
- Feifel gear still fitted
Camo Scheme:
- Plain Dark Yellow with armour thickness & angle figs painted on in black.
Unit:
- None?
Location of Photo/s & Date:
- Arys Troop Training Grounds, October 20 1943
Refs:
- pp.81, 83 & 86 Panzer Mag Special "Tiger Heavy Tank"
- p.84 Tank Mag Special "WWII Military Vehicle Photo File 2"
- p.94 Tank Mag Special "German Heavy Tanks"
- p.168-169 Spielberger's Tiger and King Tiger Tanks & Their Variants"

******************************************************

2. "Kubinka Vehicle" - V.early production version;
Features (maybe reworked proto?):
Features:
- Early tracks
- Bolted appliqué nose armour - with large conical bolts
- Early style straight hull tow shackles
- no zimmerit
- Bolted muzzle venturi ring
- More numerous rifling grooves than later vehicles
- Blade welded to glacis as mantlet depression stopper
- Stepped counter weight on muzzle
- Crane stowage brackets on eng. deck
Camo Scheme:
- Heavy sprayed, soft-edged, 3 col. blotches
Unit:
- Unknown
Location of Photo/s & Date:
- River Elba Area, May '45
Refs:
- p.20 Armada No.6 "German Camo & Markings"
- p.? German Military Vehicles 2 - Delta Special
- p.105 "Tiger Model Fibel" (current Kubinka shots)
- pp.34 & 39 Russian “Tankmaster” Magazine – Jan 2000

******************************************************

3. "Tech Manual Vehicle" - seen loading rounds:
Features:
- Early tracks
- Late style cut out hull tow shackles
- Neat coat of Zimmerit
- Crane Stowage brackets on eng. deck
- No counter weight on muzzle
- Odd spacing on venturi ring muzzle holes
Camo Scheme:
- Sprayed, soft-edged, heavy 3 colour large dot 'ambush scheme'
Unit:
- St.Mrs.Kp.1000?
Location of Photo/s & Date:
- Unknown
Refs:
- pp.95-96 Tank Mag Special "German Heavy Tanks"
- pp.96-97 Tank Mag Special "WWII Military Vehicle Photo File 2"
- p.139 "Encylopedia of German Tanks"
- pp. 35-39 Russian “Tankmaster” Magazine – Jan 2000

******************************************************

4. "Menden Vehicle":
Features:
- Late tracks
- Late style cutout hull tow shackles
- fine pattern zimmerit remnants on hull
- Flat ring type counterweight
Camo Scheme:
- brush painted hard-edged 3 col. 'ambush scheme' with strips not dots
Unit:
- St.Mrs.Kp.1002?
Location of Photo/s & Date:
- Menden April 14 1945
Refs:
- http://www.737thtankbattalion.org/pix.htm
- http://www.737thtankbattalion.org/menden.htm

* Note this one is NOT the current Sinsheim/former APG vehicle as claimed on the website above (cf. front tow shackles).

*******************************************************

5. "Aberdeen/Sinsheim Vehicle":
Features:
- Late Tracks
- Late small idler
- Early style straight hull tow shackles
- Fine zimmerit remnants on the hull
- Bent front LHS fender and missing RHS one
- Flat ring type counterweight
Camo Scheme:
- brush painted hard-edged 3 col. 'ambush scheme' with strips not dots
Unit:
- St.Mrs.Kp.1002?
Location of Photo/s & Date:
- Seen unloading from ship in US postwar and in various shots from then till present day
Refs:
- http://www.737thtankbattalion.org/pix.htm
- pp.115 & 153 Ryton's "Tiger I and Sturmtiger in Detail"
- p.84 Model Art "German Self-Propelled Gun in WWII Vol.2
- pp.88-89 Tank Mag Special "WWII Military Vehicle Photo File 2"
- p.101 Tank Mag Special "German Heavy Tanks"
- p.170 Spielberger's Tiger and King Tiger Tanks & Their Variants"
(though last 2 as with the post war APG shot in this link not in orig. paint job) http://www.inf.upol.cz/~stepanos/museum/sturmtiger.html *******************************************************

6. "Abandoned One on Dirt Road with Blown Barrel Rifling Sleeve":
Features:
- Late tracks - very worn
- fine pattern zimmerit remnants on hull
- Missing both front fenders
- Odd late cut out front hull tow shackles with double holes
- Flat ring type counter weight
- Vane sight for CO on top edge of glacis plate
Camo Scheme:
- brush painted hard-edged 3 col. 'ambush scheme' with strips not dots
Unit:
- St.Mrs.Kp.1002?
Location of Photo/s & Date:
- Unknown
Refs:
Front RHS:
- pp.85-6 Model Art "German Self-Propelled Guns in WWII Vol.2
Front LHS:
- p.86 Model Art Special “German Self Propelled Guns in WWII”
- p.87 Panzer Mag Special "Tiger Heavy Tank"
- p.87 Tank Mag Special "WWII Military Vehicle Photo File 2"
- p.62 Panzer Mag Special "German Self-Propelled Guns"

*******************************************************

7. "One in Farmyard with Jammed RHS Track:
Features:
- Late tracks
- Early style straight hull tow shackles
- Bolted appliqué nose armour - small bolts
- No Zimmerit
- Stepped counter weight on muzzle
Camo Scheme:
- Either plain Dark Yellow or very possibly a sprayed soft-edged 3 col. Scheme of some kind such as large dot ambush under the heavy layer of dust?
Unit:
- St.Mrs.Kp.1001?
Location of Photo/s & Date:
- Drohlshagen near Bonn, 11 April 1945
Refs:
- p.152 Ryton's "Tiger I and Sturmtiger in Detail"
- p.84 Panzer Mag Special "Tiger Heavy Tank"
- p.15 Tamiya's "German Tanks in World Museums Vol.1"
- p.170 Spielberger's "Tiger and King Tiger Tanks & Their Variants"

*******************************************************

8. One in Ditch Against House/"464 Ord. Evac" & "DTD" Markings - sent to UK for tests:
Features:
- Late tracks
- Early style straight hull tow shackles
- Chunky zimmerit in thin rows
- No counter weight on muzzle
Camo Scheme:
- sprayed, soft-edged, large dot, 3 col. 'ambush scheme'
Unit:
- St.Mrs.Kp.1000/1?
Location of Photo/s & Date:
- Unknown
Refs:
http://www.inf.upol.cz/~stepanos/museum/sturmtiger.html
- pp.114, 116-118, 137-138, 149-151 Ryton's "Tiger I and Sturmtiger in Detail"
- pp.86, & 88-91 Panzer Mag Special "Tiger Heavy Tank"
- pp.97-100 Tank Mag Special "German Heavy Tanks"
- pp.83-86 & 89-95 Tank Mag Special "WWII Military Vehicle Photo File 2"
- p.139 "Encylopedia of German Tanks"
- pp.59-62 Panzer Mag Special "German Self-Propelled Guns"
- p.170 Spielberger's Tiger and King Tiger Tanks & Their Variants"

*******************************************************

Plus theres a video of one firing at:
http://www.737thtankbattalion.org/menden.htm

Still shots of this footage also exist

*******************************************************

If anyone knows of any missing details or corrections to the above, or better still, can add any other vehicles to the list, please let me know (c.10? more still to find)...but but hope this is of some interest in the meantime.

Regards,

James

 
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Greg H
(no login)
152.163.204.177

re: SturmTiger

July 11 2001, 12:19 AM 

James,

Read with interest what you posted. I have the Italeri kit of the SturmTiger & am wondering which type the kit represents in your list. Any help is GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Greg Harting
pyrman@aol.com

 
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James Blackwell
(Premier Login aytron)
Forum Owner
198.142.164.163

3 choices from that list

July 11 2001, 1:42 AM 

Hi Greg - I haven't got the Italeri kit myself as I prefer the Tamiya rendition, but I think from what I remember from looking at one it has;

- late tracks
- late tow shackles with the cut-outs
- an optional? flat ring style barrel counter-weight
- normal no. of venturi on the muzzle
- late domed engine hatch breather cover
- zimmerit - though don't know whether its totally optional or you are forced to use it as it is moulded onto structural panels?

If so then that leaves you three choices (4, 5, and 6) all from 1002, or you could simply just guess-ti-mate up a generic one from the yet to be found 10?

JB

 
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Greg H
(no login)
192.11.223.121

Thanks JB...

July 12 2001, 7:21 PM 

...your responses are always what the doctor ordered!

Greg Harting
pyrman@aol.com

 
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David Nickels
(no login)
131.247.129.115

Italeri kit

July 11 2001, 9:45 AM 

Italeri's kit, which is pretty nice, is a "generic" standard production Sturmtiger. It is not the prototype with rubber tired wheels or an early "Eastern Front" version with applique armor. Overall it is a nice kit, and I think the superstructure detail is considerably better than Tamiyas. Construction is somewhat tricky, but okay in the end. The molded zimmeritt is pretty good, unless you want to model one of the ST's without it. Replace the tools and fittings with Tamiya parts, as the kit ones are skinny and underscale. One of Italeri's better offerings for the money, considering when this kit came out at $25 the Tamiya kit was $49 US.

 
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Paul Libner
(no login)
213.76.96.179

Excellent !

July 11 2001, 3:20 PM 

Excellent response.Thank you James, you are great.
Regards

 
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