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Cromwell ID............

February 5 2005 at 9:46 PM
  (Login feb05)
from IP address 82.9.241.59

This is one of a pair of Cromwells knocked out near a railway crossing, said to be at Villers Bocage. I am fairly sure it is not 4th CLY and for sure it is not 1st RTR. That leaves 5th RTR or 8th Hussars. Can anyone match the use of the squadron marking on the hull front plate or the white 'TT449' on the lower glacis of both tanks?
This tank is T187698, the other 95mm CS is T187760. .

 
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AuthorReply

(Login daleceleste)
64.216.48.158

if it is 7th armd, it is 8th irish hussars

February 6 2005, 3:48 AM 

the tac sign of 45, just visible on the far left, just above the left-hand fender, indicates the recce regiment of the division.

God bless, sam

 
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(no login)
213.122.33.187

I have the CS down as 4 CLY. n/t

February 6 2005, 5:30 AM 

.

 
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(no login)
62.252.0.6

Another possibility

February 6 2005, 7:21 AM 

Certainly an Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment, I wonder if it is 2nd Northamptonshire Yeomanry from 11th Armoured Division.
The location of the markings is consistent with theirs, the divisional bull on a yellow background would be behind the round container on the glacis. Small name above that is also seen on other 2NY vehicles, as is the hand painted number below the census number as seen on photos of their tanks in Flers.
Much of this depends on the date, as 2NY were replaced by 15th/19th Hussars on 17 August 1944.
As for 8th Hussars, photos show they used a combined Divisional/Arm of Service sign, with the red rat on a white square above the 45 on green/blue, either between the driver's visor and hull machine gun or outboard of the hull gun.

 
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(Login grispatrice)
Missing-Lynx members
81.246.199.60

Re: Cromwell ID............

February 6 2005, 7:58 AM 

Hello.
I think that it could be a Cromwell of the 2nd armoured Recce Bn Welsh Guards.
Patrice.

 
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(no login)
62.252.0.6

Probably not 2WG

February 6 2005, 10:54 AM 

I would rule 2nd Welsh Guards out as they carried a full set of markings across the "nose" between the towing eyes, left to right as viewed the arm of service sign, then bridge class in a yellow ring, then Squadron symbol in white outline, then then Division's eye sign which in many photos is hard to see with only the white part visible.
Photos of 10th Mounted Rifles in 1st Polish Armoured Division show they carried their Divisonal sign to of the hull machine gun mounting with the arm of service sign to the right of that.

 
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(no login)
213.122.163.200

If anyone can read the name I might have a chance of ID.n/t

February 6 2005, 8:39 AM 

.

 
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(no login)
195.93.21.38

Was there a rail crossing at VB?

February 6 2005, 9:02 AM 

I went through there a few years ago and didn't see any sign of a railway but as I couldn't stop I may well have missed it

 
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(no login)
80.57.218.161

yes, there is.......

February 6 2005, 1:05 PM 

or at least there was. Don't have access to my present day maps, but the older versions show it. It runs to the south-east of the village. I've also seen a picture of a railgun with the caption "abandoned near VB".

 
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(no login)
82.9.241.59

8th Hussars.................

February 6 2005, 2:26 PM 

8th Hussars lost 2 Cromwells on 12/6/44, the day before Villers. These were 3 Troop A Squadron tanks. In the original photo (from Wydawnictwo 216, 'France 1944 vol II' credited to CAW Warsaw)you can just make out a '3' inside the triangle on the turret. These tanks were lost around Livry.
However the use of the Squadron sign on the front plate is a 2nd Northamptonshire trait and I guess we shall never know for sure. It is not possible to make out the name in the original.
I first found this pair in German Newsreel footage (unbroadcast I think) and the CS is in a ditch to the right rear of the posted Cromwell and facing the other way.

 
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(no login)
213.106.166.182

yes, there is........

February 6 2005, 4:51 PM 

I think Niels is right, there USED to be a railway line through Villers Bocage, which has now closed. I THINK the current Autoroute partly follows the approximate course, bypassing the town. The D675 is still pretty much as it would have been on June 13th 1944, when Wittman caused such havoc.
I seem to recall that originally there was a level-crossing to the south-west of the town, but don't think the CLY guarded it as part of their right flank on their eastward march. I tend to go with the ID of 2nd Northants Yeomanry-15th/19th Hussars(11th Armoured Division) at some other level crossing in Calvados, following Peter's arguments re. positioning of markings.
Just my two-pennorth.......
AndyT

 
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(no login)
62.252.0.6

... or not?

February 6 2005, 3:16 PM 

I would doubt 8th Hussars for the reasons I stated above and stick with 2nd Northamptonshire Yeomanry.
The round marking on the nose could be a bridge classification mark, same style is used on Welsh Guards tanks with a yellow ring not a solid disc.
As always, without a firm date and location, it is hard to be certain.

 
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(no login)
81.131.60.62

If the names is Achilles. It could be 15th/19th Hussars.n/t

February 6 2005, 4:20 PM 

.

 
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(no login)
213.106.166.182

W.D. Number.

February 6 2005, 5:03 PM 

If, and I repeat IF, the W.D. number on the bow-plate is T187698, then the Cromwell was originally built as a Centaur I by Leyland, according to Dick Harley's lists. If it's T167698,as it MIGHT read; I'm stuffed!
HTH
AndyT

 
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(no login)
82.9.241.59

Consider yourself un-stuffed

February 6 2005, 5:27 PM 

On the original it is T187698!

 
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(no login)
146.171.254.65

if 8th hussars...

February 7 2005, 7:12 PM 

hi michael,
the 8th Hussars usually had the 7th AD desert rat above the 45 on a plain white square.
the tt449 looks kind of familar, has "oliver" from 11th AD got something simlar? or a 7th AD RHA op cromwell in fletchers/concord british tanks pt1.
all have a look tonight.
cheers elliott

 
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