Hope you can help me.

I have had some extremely helpful replys to my post whilst I was researching my M4A2 Sherman on Saipan, but I am still unclear.

I am presuming low bustle turrets had the steep decline to the "rectangular rear" of the turret (sorry for the lack of technical knowledge) and high bustle is a shallow decline to the back of the turret. If this is so, then the kit I have is a high bustle turret with a pistol port.

What I want to know is did the USMC tanks with high bustle turrets have the added cast armour on their cheek and if so, does that mean the removal of the pistol port?

And all also had the pistol port!

The cast-in armor was introduced into production before the revision of the rear bustle. As for the pistol port, although deleted on the later low-bustle turret castings (the ones with the cheek armor build-up), it was re-introduced with the revised bustle configuration.

Hope this helps.

Charby

P.S. If you need help adding the cast-in armor on your kit's turret, just e-mail me and I'll send you the diagram I made.

Seeing your last round of hot ammo punch through the side of that Tiger: Priceless.

Lee: Charby gives you excellent info (and I've used his diagram several times to thicken my turret cheeks too! Thnx Charby)

To give you some more context, you're correct when distinguishing between the low vs. high bustle turret. That rectangular area is the "bustle" that held the radios. The Shermans started with the "low" bustles but moved to "high" bustles when they introduced the larger hatches for the driver and hull MG operator. The lower bustle would have interfered with the smooth opening of the larger hatches -- not good at all in an emergency situation. As these were later in production, they incorporated the cast in cheek thickening.


Initial Sherman turrets had low bustles, no cheek thickening and the shell ejection port. The need to strenthen the thinned cheek (the right trunnion mount of the cannon required a portion of the inner wall to be ground away) was initially done through applique armor. Later, the casting was modified (thickened) so applique was no longer necessary. During this later run, the ejection port was deleted (I believe it was a perceived weak point in the turret). However it was later re-introduced and I've not seen a later high bustle turret without them.

There may have been some crossover in production of one feature to the next and oddball pictures come up of peculiar combinations (such as a high bustle turret on a small hatch Sherman) and these only add enjoyment to those of us with "Sherman eye".

Rgrds,
RC

Greetings Lee!
If you are using kit supplied turrets, they almost universally lack the thickened cheek armor, but don't despair, it's easy to fix. The page in the first link below (it is from the excellent "Modeling US Army in WW II" site owned and maintained by Tim Streeter) has a well done page by Herve Charbonneau that describes the process. Alternately, you could go with one of the several resin turrets that fix this problem (Tank Workshop and Formations spring to mind). On a similar note, don't forget to blend the frame of the port door on the opposite side into the turret (it was part of the turret casting and not a welded-on applique as the appearance of the part leads you to think). The second link to another page by Kurt Laughlin on the same site has several photos of turrets that show both the cheek armor and the way the frame of the ejector port door is part of the turret casting. Good luck with your project! Chuck


http://www.usarmymodels.com/ARTICLES/Sherman%20Corner/Turrets/shermanturrets.html

It's hard to remember that the object was to finish the model when you have both hands superglued to your forehead.

Wow! This Forum's quickly becoming my "one stop research shop"! Thank you for clearing this up for me. I am still on the upper hull but I am really looking forward to getting out the Milliput to mold the extra armour - you wouldn't believe this is my first 1/35th Model!

Why on earth don't Company's just take criticisms from modelers into account and manufacture a "perfect kit" (hybrids excluded)?

n/t

It's hard to remember that the object was to finish the model when you have both hands superglued to your forehead.

I too am having a lil research trouble on High and low bustle turret for the fireflys. The Ic used mainly the low bustled turret remodified in field mainly for the High Bustle...And the Vc used mainly the High Bustle...as I have both..and changing my resicast sherman m4a4 to a firefly... If possible I think I need a lil more light shed on this subject...btw hello again Roy.

Hi Jon: Most SHerman VCs used the low bustle too. The highbustle Firefly was much more rare, regardless if it used an M4A4 or an M4. The timeline of Fireflies was modifying mostly M4A4s first, then M4 Hybrids later. Some welded hull M4s were in the mix too. However, the 75mm turrets they converted were mainly from the M4A4s (and therefore low bustle). The few high bustle turrets probably came from M4 Hybrid donor tanks. Once modified, the turrets would be delivered placed on whichever modified hull was in line, without regard to mating the high bustle turrets with the M4 hybrids.

Why don't you hold off on modifying the Resicast M4A4 and get the impending Tasca kit instead? I'm sure it will be a better kit than the resin M4A4. Look here for info:

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/newkitnews/tasca.htm

I don't think there will be a single extant Sherman kit, plastic or resin, that will match up to this, IMHO

Jon,
Rule of thumb. (Always exceptions to the rule.)

The M4A4, or Sherman V, was built with low bustle turrets:

a. The common midproduction turret with or without applique.

b. Turrets with the pistol ports plugged/welded or "bulged" with right cheek applique.

c. Late low bustle turrets with reinforced cheeks and no pistol port.

M4A4 production ended before the introduction of the high bustle turret in JAN 44. Also, the Firefly modification program for Sherman V's were basically complete before the delivery of the high bustle, M4 Hybrids.

The welded M4's used for Sherman 1c's were almost all remanufactured vehicles, including DV vehicles. Most have late features like sharp nosed differential housings and full hull applique.

Remanufactured turrets are generally two types: standard midproduction with applique and a lot of late low bustle turrets without the pistol port.


The Late M4's (Hybrids) were initially built with the late low bustle and then transitioned during production to the high bustle turrets in order to improve hatch clearance.

Hybrids, are to my knowledge, the only Firefly 1c's that we have photographic evidence of using high bustles.

(Battening down the hatches and preparing for the flood of "gotcha" photos. ;-])

Despite the reported mixing of turrets on the assembly line, the need for a high bustle turret to be matched with a large hatch hull was recognized by the modification teams and there doesn't appear to be any cross over from hybrid to welded hull.

Another thing that would preclude cross-turreting, is the delivery of "new" M4's in one shipment direct from the manufacturer; and the delivery of remanufactured M4's from rebuild plants; resulting in different delivery times.

This is not to say that a field salvage repair, wouldn't mix two tanks to make one M4 with a 17 pounder, but it isn't likely that a high bustle turret would end up on a Sherman Vc.

hth,
mike

Great stuff Mike. Thnx for the corrections!

After reading about the exploits of Wilfred Harris in his Firefly, makes me realize that the only real problem with the mainstream sherman was the sad gun, both 75 and 76 mm. Harris proved that the Panther was also a "Ronson" when ambushed by a Firefly. And not to forget, ambush is the key word, as the advantage of the Panther and Tiger was in range (hitting the non-Fireflys before they could get into range to make a flank shot). Armor was a factor as well, certainly, but not against a Fireflys' main gun.

I began to notice the Panther being brewed up almost as much as our friend the Sherman.
Take the Cologne one that gets hit with the Pershing 90mm. That quickly caught fire and burned for what, three days?
Does this make it using the terms of the day, "A Kraut Crock Pot" ?(TM)
- Shawn

I imagine that the Panther would not be called one of the most successful tanks of WW2. We already know what a dismal failure the Tigers were. Does it make any difference if a Tiger was destroyed by an Allied crew or the Tiger's own crew? Not to me.

....most of this stuff I learned from you! I even took notes.

Now, I fully expect you to put me in my place by discovering that one rare photo of a high bustle Sherman Vc.

After all, the best Sherman discoveries on ML are a partial result of "I'll show him!" driven research...and if anyone can find it, it will be you.

So, bring it on! ;-]

mike

This is the rerelease of the original Firefly 1c kit, not the new Firefly 1c kit.

(One wonders at DML's marketing practices, but they recently rereleased the old Gunze Sanyo/Dragon Panther G kit, just before they sent out the late Panther G Smart Kit.)

According to the blurb, it appears that this is the 2-in-1 kit with both low and high bustle turrets; and includes the 17 pounder, as well as, the 75mm gun tubes and mounts.

hth,
mike

Mike,

...I have the older incarnation of the 2 in 1 Ic Firefly kit, but apparently in the re-release of the last month or so, others have said that it's now JUST a firefly and does NOT include the second, high bustle turret. A shame, since this turret has the thickened cheek bulge molded in. I have not seen this new kit contents myself, but others have. One thing I will note is that the side of the box no longer shows the extra photos of the kit done as a 75mm "Marine" tank, nor does it now have the blue colored strip at the bottom where it used to say 2 in 1.

Rob

Hi guys,

According to what was written above...the proper turret for a large hatched M4 late (hybrid) would be the high bustle turret with cast-in cheek armor. If DML only included the low-bustle turret in their re-release....D'OH!

No one has yet said: "I am looking at the turret in the re-released DML Firefly 1C and it is definately the low bustle". Does anyone out there HAVE a re-release??? It might save a lot of guys a lot of grief to know in advance.

Wayne (safe with his original issue kit neener, neener, neeeener) Eric

It is only the Firefly.

The kit has the same turret parts as the Firefly Vc kit 6281.

I have an earlier post somewhere here on ML where I list all the sprues in the kit. I happened to have a "live" computer handy when I received the kit and posted the sprue count.

The best surprise is that you get three transmission covers and two complete suspensions!

/Magnus

Magnus,
Doesn't this turret try to represent the late low bustle without pistol port?

(I believe the pistol port is included as a separate part, but should be left off.)

The turret in mine has the reinforced cheek subtly represented which is correct for some turret castings.

How about the one in the box?

If it is the same, then it is correct for an early Sherman 1c Hybrid. It would represent a tank manufactured roughly between SEP 43 and JAN 44 (IIRC). The flat return roller arms would be correct also.

The problem with representing a US 75mm gun tank is that the British added loader's hatch would need to be filled.

hth,
mike

What comes in the box was posted here, on TL, and on Armorama over a month ago. Sorry if you missed it.

Secondly, they didn't blow it. The turret it comes with is quite appropriate for a IC Hybrid Firefly. When I get 'round to building mine, I'll build up the right cheek and eliminate the pistol port. I have several photos of that exact version.

The turret is incorrect, however, if you wanted to do one with a 75mm gun, such as a US Army or Marine one. All of those, from what I've seen, had the high bustle. I'm happy to have the version that has the extra turret, though it does not have as detailed a suspension, so you give and you take.

Rob

Not entirely true. Some Hybrids had the LB turret and Brit supplied vehicles were mainly (not exclusively) LB with NO pistol port but cast cheeks. The Brits added the standard Firefly loaders hatch to these.
Later Composites converted to fireflies were HB turrets with cast cheek and pistol port. Many pics of both types existed. The existing loaders hatch was retained.

The DML Firefly 1c is correct (If not poorly executed & missing the cast cheek) in the turret area if you leave out the pistol port.
The re release is the same as the original was for the non Nth American market. Only the NA market got the 2-in-1 release for some reason or other. I have both types in my possession.
I would wait for the retooled kit which I hope will come with alternate turret parts for a LB and HB turret.

Cheers
Al

Resicast M1A1
Resicast M4A4
Verlinden Hybrid hull & Turret
Azimut M4A4 hull and Turret
Formations Hugh Bustle Turret
Formations Low Bustle Turret
Accurate Armour 60lb rockets for the Guards Armoured
Dragons hybrid Ic
All 3 Dragon Vc kits
Armour Brigade Vc Hull and Turret
3 IMA 17 pdr's barrels

Now what goes where....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

In a big box then to the post office and they are shipped to Australia to spare you the grief!
Just kidding, nice collection, enjoy it
AL

Laughing...as I read the post....no kidding...I keep telling myself I am going to build a firefly..yet I keep putting them on the back burner due to all the new toys coming out...now I realize I have too many parts and have no clue which is the best to build and what goes with what...HEEEELP!

Resicast M1A1 (I assume M4A1?) - Low bustle - kit supplied from memory
Resicast M4A4 - Low bustle - kit supplied from memory
Verlinden Hybrid hull & Turret (Hull = Bin or convert to an actual hybrid) Take your pick with the turret as listed in above posts
Azimut M4A4 hull and Turret (Low bustle with welded up pistol port if firefly or normal pistol port if 75
Formations Hugh Bustle Turret Put on a composite hull as a late 75 NWE US or convert to Firefly
Formations Low Bustle Turret - Put on an M4A4 as a 75
Accurate Armour 60lb rockets for the Guards Armoured put on a Firefly turret either LB on Hybrid or Vc
Dragons hybrid Ic - Use the Formations HB with Firefly parts
All 3 Dragon Vc kits - Build the 2nd and 3rd release - Parts bin the 1st)
Armour Brigade Vc Hull and Turret - OOB
3 IMA 17 pdr's barrels put them on the fireflies by DML

Now what goes where....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


Or visit the post office with a large amount of money......

CHeers
Al

maybe if enough extra parts...I will send'em to you and roy!