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"k230" T34/85 in Berlin, white cross on the turret or not?

November 3 2010 at 9:42 PM

Robert Villaverde  (Login rva1945)
Missing-Lynx members
from IP address 190.173.220.47

It seems as if these are the only photos of this tank, I can't figure it out whether it had a white cross painted above the turret or not.

[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]

I'd appreciate any help.

Robert

 
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AuthorReply

Theo Braat
(Login TheoBraat)
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213.10.0.97

"k230" T34/85 in Berlin

November 4 2010, 9:06 AM 

Hello Robert

I would say no. The white band around the turret is already crude and a white Air ID cross would probably be crudely applied as well, showing paint around the edges of the roof. Also, the cross would run partly over the commanders cuppola and I don't see any white paint there.

Just my 2cents

Theo

 
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Danny Egan
(Login DannyEgan)
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67.248.142.176

A guess

November 4 2010, 6:08 PM 

Hey, we can all guess, can't we? In the third photo I am either seeing or imagining a white stripe extending onto the flat plate behind the gun mantlet, just where you'd expect it to be. And yes, I freely admit I may be seeing what I expect to see rather than what is there....

Danny Egan
President
AMPS
http://www.amps-armor.org

 
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Robert Villaverde
(Login rva1945)
Missing-Lynx members
190.173.213.199

You mean over the gun?

November 4 2010, 8:29 PM 

I'll play with contrasts using an images editor to see what shows up.

The image in inverted colors:

[linked image]

Thank you guys.

Robert


    
This message has been edited by rva1945 from IP address 190.173.213.199 on Nov 4, 2010 8:38 PM


 
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Robert Lockie
(Login RobertLockie)
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80.229.43.35

'The eye of faith'

November 5 2010, 5:06 AM 

As we used to call it in remote sensing when studying satellite imagery for features that we strongly believed to be there but couldn't actually see.

I don't see such a cross myself but it is credible for there to be one. As an alternative, one could adopt the scoundrel's common trick of modelling the unphotographed vehicle next in the numbering sequence....

 
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Danny Egan
(Login DannyEgan)
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67.248.142.176

Sure, but what would Occam say?

November 5 2010, 6:47 AM 

Yes, as I wrote in my original post, this could be a case of me seeing what I want to see, not what's there. Likewise, my children are much better-looking, smarter, and more intelligent inside my brain than in reality wink.gif

BUT let's not forget occam's razor: the simplest explanation is the best. In this case, to conclude there is NOT a roof cross requires us to believe the unit painted half the air ID marking (the stripe) but not the other half (the cross) Personally I think that is less likely than that they painted the entire insignia.

Danny Egan
President
AMPS
http://www.amps-armor.org

 
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tim Fontenot
(Login timfontenot)
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67.180.130.89

Good point

November 5 2010, 10:17 AM 

How do you know that there is a white stripe on the right side of the turent?
Chances are if its on one side it's on the other, same as the top.

 
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Scott Fraser
(Login dsfraser)
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68.146.242.45

Occam would say: "Dont make stuff up".

November 5 2010, 5:01 PM 

There are lots of photos of tanks in Berlin. Some had the cross, some did not.Some had the stripe around the turret, some did not. Some had both. Some had neither.

There was an instruction to paint air recognition markings for the assault on Berlin. Some units paid more attention to it than other, and there were many different interpretations of what constituted a cross or a stripe.

If this tank had a cross on the roof, I would expect to see evidence of that. From the front, there should be white clearly visible behind the mantlet. Likewise, there should be white visible on the cupola. There is no white visible, ergo this particular battalion (3rd Guards Tank Army) did not bother with a roof cross, or at least not on this particular tank.

Modellers tend to embellish, to include what they want to and omit what they don't. It's an art form, so there is some latitude, but let's not get carried away. If you don't see a cross, why imagine that it is there? It isn't. Not uncommon in Berlin in May 1945.

Scott Fraser

 
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Danny Egan
(Login DannyEgan)
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67.248.142.176

So next time I hear hoofbeats...

November 5 2010, 5:42 PM 

..I will assume there are no horses approaching, becuase I don't want to make stuff up. wink.gif

I think there are several possible conclusions to draw from this set of photos, which you have listed. Strictly speaking, one guess is about as good as another because we can't see the top of the turret. My opinion is that it is more likely that the whole insignia would be painted than merely part of it.

Danny Egan
President
AMPS
http://www.amps-armor.org

 
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Scott Fraser
(Login dsfraser)
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Re: So next time I hear hoofbeats...

November 5 2010, 6:06 PM 

My experience, it is dangerous to cling to preconceptions.

 
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Dave Block
(Login Dave_Block)
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208.65.247.87

To confound things even more

November 6 2010, 1:28 PM 

If you can locate a better contrast photo of the third picture, you can just see a white insignia to the right of the bow mg (the vehicle's right, your left). It's right next to the side support for the 'bedspring' and appears to be a small white diamond with a white stripe underneath and character/numeral inside the diamond. I first noticed this years back when I got "The Road to Berlin" by Messers Zaloga and Grandsen in the Fotofax series from A&AP. A unit insignia of some sort I suppose...
FWIW, although I can't prove it, I'm with the 'no stripe' brigade but can easily be swayed.
Cheers, Dave

 
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