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8 RTR in Operation Crusader - markings?

June 23 2012 at 12:42 PM
  (Login Chris1434)
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from IP address 109.148.87.150

I'm trying to get a complete set of markings for an early Valentine in 8 RTR during Operation Crusader. The stripes, of course, the company/squadron markings and vehicle number.

But what about the Unit markings? Regiment? Brigade?

And the Arm of Service marking for 8 RTR?

I've tried the internet, and trawled through my library, but nothing really helps.

Any advice would be very welcome,

Chris



Chris Lloyd-Staples
MAFVA Information Officer
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(Login DutchyHolland)
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82.3.128.23

Re: 8 RTR in Operation Crusader - markings?

June 23 2012, 5:53 PM 

Hi Chris,
8RTR were with 1 Army Tank Brigade at the time along with 42RTR and 44RTR.
The brigade had a red diablo as it's formation sign.
Bellis's suggested AoS's for the brigade in N Africa 1941 is 171-174 on red which I suppose makes 8RTR as 172.

HTH,
Ken



.

 
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(Login Chris1434)
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109.148.87.150

Ah, yes.

June 23 2012, 6:31 PM 

That is helpful. I didn't know the seniority of the regiments in the brigade, so which one would be allocated AoS numbers in the series.

However, I think it might be different.... I just now found in Hodges and Taylor's book that 1st Army Tank Brigade had, in the Crusader period:
HQ 71
8RTR 40
42RTR 86
44RTR 67

all in white on red.


The information about the red diabolo is new to me - thanks for this information.

Best regards,

Chris

Chris Lloyd-Staples
MAFVA Information Officer
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Ken Holland
(Login DutchyHolland)
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Hmm..

June 24 2012, 6:35 AM 

I thought that numbering system rather applied to an Armoured Brigade at the time more than an Army Tank Brigade?

 
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(Login Chris1434)
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109.148.87.150

Only quoting from the book....

June 24 2012, 10:17 AM 

According to the book British Military Markings, 1939-1945, I quote:

"1 Army Tank Brigade is listed as HQ, 8, 42 and 44RTR with serials 71, 40, 86 and 67 on Red. It will be noted that the serials and colours are those listed in the GHQ MEF letter of 21 September 1941 for the senior infantry and armoured brigades in infantry and armoured divisions." This refers to archive material dated December 1941. (Hodges and Taylor 1971, revised 1994)

I don't know whether there had been an error at the time, using Armoured Brigade numbering for the Tank Brigade.

I'd just love for someone to come up with a photo of 8 RTR (or indeed 42 or 44), showing the codes. It is possible that the codes were never painted on the vehicles.

Chris

Chris Lloyd-Staples
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(Login wormell)
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95.144.191.180

Platz

June 24 2012, 8:55 AM 

The Platz book has the following to say regarding 8 R/T/R @ 19/11/41.

172 on red square.
No Sqd markings displayed.

Make what you will of that!

Best wishes, David.

 
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(Login Chris1434)
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Platz book?

June 24 2012, 10:21 AM 

Hi David,

Thanks for that. Do you have the title for the Platz book?

No squadron markings?? Interesting....

Chris


Chris Lloyd-Staples
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(Login DutchyHolland)
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Re: Platz book?

June 24 2012, 12:31 PM 

Just to add further confusion to the mix...

There's a photo of an 8RTR Valentine on Op Crusader with the white-red-white markings clearly showing the B Sqn square with a 9 inside on page 100 of Dick Taylor's Into The Vally. Unfortunately no other markings are showing.

 
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(Login Erik_Ahlstroem)
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Platz

June 24 2012, 3:07 PM 

I think he is refering to Platz book "Desert Tracks", an excellent littyle book with nice coulorchips in.
other than this I only know of his articles in AFV-G2, fex "Marking British Vehicles, a guide for serious modellers".
Wonder what happened to hem btw, anyone knows?

Desert-Erik
Sweden

CU@C4

www.c4-open.se

 
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(Login Chris1434)
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What a mix!

June 24 2012, 3:58 PM 

Yes, that photo is Harry II I think. In Bryan Parrett's superb book 'The Valentine in North Africa' there is a photo showing a vehicle with no Squadron markings, but several vehicles in the shot have their turret stripes in different positions. Clearly not a lot of uniformity, as they try to get the Valentines into action....

This book has pictures showing AoS '40', which confirms the information that this was the number grouping being used - but the photos are identified as 40 RTR, while the 40 AoS is supposed to be 8 RTR. Confusing!

Chris

Chris Lloyd-Staples
MAFVA Information Officer
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(Login DutchyHolland)
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Re: What a mix!

June 24 2012, 6:47 PM 

If it is a 40RTR tank then AoS 40 would be correct as they were the senior regiment in 23 Armd Bde alongside 46RTR and 50RTR Chris. 23 Armd Bde would have used that style of AoS numbering.

Regarding your reference to the GHQ MEF letter of 21 September 1941, I have a scan of that courtesy of Shane Lovell here and while it does show the AoS's 40, 86 and 67 it also states that they were for the Three Armd Regts in the Senior Armd Bde in an Armoured Division.
No mention of independant Army Tank Brigades at all so I'm still tending towards 1 Army Tank Bde having used the 171-174 series suggested by Bellis and the Platz book David mentioned.

I've got Perret's Valentines book somewhere so I'll have a look through for identifiable pics when I get a chance.

Cheers,
Ken

Edit - the only non 23 Armd Bde tank I could spot was HAL II mentioned earlier - in Caunter with no Sqn tac signs. Makes perfect sense as the book is about 23 Armd Bde after all. wink.gif

 
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(Login wormell)
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Platz

June 25 2012, 7:00 PM 

Yes the Platz book I quoted from is indeed Desert Tracks.


(Mods, I'm still not getting any notifications, can you help?)

 
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