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Leopard 2 Austere Version (American Version)

August 5 2017 at 10:03 AM
Nick Garver  (Login tanknick07)
Missing-Lynx members
from IP address 73.215.194.73

Im throwing around the idea pf building the Leopard 2 austure version the prototype that was tested against both the XM-1
prototypes but cant seem to find any good
Reference photos.
Google images,bing and Pinterest are completly usless
Can anyone help?

 
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AuthorReply
Steve Hearn
(Login SteveHearn)
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67.58.202.82

Leopard 2AV

August 5 2017, 2:28 PM 

I should be able to help if you want to PM me.
I have Frank Lobitz's book on the Leopard 2 as well as the Spielberger book on Krauss Maffei. I have a few photographs as well as dimension drawings. Do you realize that the front hull is about 10" shorter with a completely different configuration than the production version.

Steve
hearn@eastlink.ca

 
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Geoff Steer
(Login GeoffSteer)
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70.53.128.62

Steve, does either book mention the Indian Arjun tank?

August 5 2017, 4:54 PM 

As you're probably aware, Krauss Maffei designed the Arjun tank. I'm just curious if either book bothers to mention the Arjun tank?
Sincerely-
Geoff Steer

 
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JMehner
(Login Jens_O_Mehner)
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84.61.227.147

Where did you get that nugget?

August 5 2017, 5:44 PM 

If Krauss-Maffei had designed that thing, it would work, the only item of German origin in the Arjun is the MTU engine. Neither Indian sources nor Krauss-Maffei ever mentioned anything about German involvement.

Like the Japanese Type 90, the design of the Arjun was inspired by the Leopard 2, but that is about it.


 
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Geoff Steer
(Login GeoffSteer)
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70.53.128.62

I quote from "Army-Technology.com"...

August 6 2017, 8:58 AM 



"The development of Arjun MBT began in March 1974. The tank heavily depends on foreign technology and equipment. Krauss Maffei, developer of the German Leopard 2 tank, provided the design assistance. Hence, the Arjun closely resembles Leopard 2A4 tank.
Up to 25%-30% of the tank components including engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks and fire control systemare imported"

Okay, I'd agree that "provided the design assistance" may not actually mean that Krauss Maffei designed the Arjun. However, considering it appears almost identical to the Leopard II, I always thought that Krauss Maffei may have designed the Arjun to be a Leopard II buildable by Indian industry. I could be wrong about that of course, I would still stand by my belief that the Arjun is a DIY Leopard II. Whatever way you look at it, the resemblance is so close you almost have to ask: "why did Indian not just go ahead and buy some Leopard IIs rather than try to make them locally"?
Sincerely-
Geoff Steer

 
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Robert Lockie
(Login RobertLockie)
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86.12.0.206

I'm no expert but possibly one reason...

August 6 2017, 12:35 PM 

India also acquired a load of MiG-21s but most of those were built locally and eventually most of the components were built locally also. The factory (and engine plant) were built in areas with no aeronautical experience but high unemployment and had the purpose been solely to acquire jets, buying direct would have made more sense. However, there were other factors and these may also have applied to the MBT production. It takes longer but it provides local jobs and also establishes s base of engineering skills that might not have existed there previously.
Rob
There's nothing cushy about life in the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps

 
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JMehner
(Login Jens_O_Mehner)
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178.11.196.5

Curiouser and curiouser

August 7 2017, 10:00 AM 

I wonder where army-technology.com came up with that? The original idea behind the Arjun was that it should be at least 50% an indigenous tank, with only some key components imported, like the engine, transmission, tracks and the electronics, the gun is made in India (the barrel not). How well that worked out, can be seen with 124 Mk I and 118 MK II originally to be purchased, less in service, and units and the generals clamouring for more T-90s instead. Those they will get, 347 have been bought from Russia and a further 1000 will be license-built.

Krauss-Maffei designed nothing in regards to the Arjun and if they had, it would have cost India a pretty penny, precisely what they wanted to avoid. It would have been a new design from the ground up in order for Indian industry to be able to build it (would be a different story today), seeing as their car industry built adapted 1950s motorcycles, cars and trucks (some of them are still being built today).

It certainly was inspired to a certain extent by the Leopard 2 (as was the Type 90), it is also somewhat narrower and lower than the Leopard 2. The design is by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), with their Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) doing the main work. It is joked that the Arjun is the best-tested tank in the world and rumour has it that it is usually called "the white elephant". The indigineous share in the end was 31% and the Arjun MkI are not operational anymore due to lack of spares.


 
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Geoff Steer
(Login GeoffSteer)
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70.53.128.235

I quote from four other sources

August 7 2017, 5:19 PM 

Tank.net
Kraus Maffei, who designed Germany's Leopard 2 tank, helped to design the Arjun MBT. Consequently, the Arjun is very similar to the Leopard 2.

Pakistan defence
Arjun is a variant of German Leopard II designed by Krauss Maffei!

Quora
Everything I've read indicates that the Arjun (Mk. I) MBT is based on relatively solid and well known, previously existing technology. It was designed with assistance from Krauss Maffei, who had also previously helped design the earlier Leopard 2

defenceforumindia.com
Despite DRDO's attempts at indigenization, the Arjun relied heavily on foreign components and technology. DRDO received major design assistance from Krauss Maffei, the developer of the German Leopard 2 tank, and several other German firms. As a result, Arjun's design is very similar to that of Leopard 2A4 tank.

These are not several sources merely regurgitating the same possibly wrong rumour!
What more do you need?
Sincerely-

Geoff Steer


 
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JMehner
(Login Jens_O_Mehner)
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88.70.20.104

Oooh, I love that one...

August 8 2017, 12:31 PM 

"Krauss Maffei, who had also previously helped design the earlier Leopard 2" - they helped design the Leo 2? It is their very own design, even if KM is mow KMW.

Yes, Arjun had a German Engine and transmission as well as Diehl tracks, although the latter have been replaced with a licensed Indian made product.

Also, four sources on the internet usually mean one actual source, as everybody copies the other guys and if the original sources was questionable, welllll... I also love the absolute certainty of India's arch-enemy Pakistan's statement.

What I need is a statement from KM that it actually happened, but none of the people I knew there (all now pensioners, some sadly not with us anymore) has ever heard anything about this supposed design help - and they were designers.

But if the Indians are happy with the quoted versions, well then by all means the Arjun had help from Germany, it was just not enough to get it from the drawing board into service in a shorter amount of time.

Cheers,

Jens

 
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Mikey Mummey
(Login mikemummey)
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50.203.220.29

Duhhh J, from the Internet. nt

August 6 2017, 8:54 PM 



    
This message has been edited by mikemummey from IP address 50.203.220.29 on Aug 6, 2017 8:54 PM


 
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JMehner
(Login Jens_O_Mehner)
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178.11.196.5

Then it must be true! ;-) n/m

August 7 2017, 10:01 AM 


 
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Steve Hearn
(Login SteveHearn)
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Arjun

August 6 2017, 5:34 PM 

Hi Geoff.
Sorry, but neither book mentions any cooperative efforts, just the international users of the vehicle.
Steve

 
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