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(Login mirkobayerl) Missing-Lynx members from IP address 18.104.22.168
My posts was removed because I received a threat !!!!
This message has been edited by mirkobayerl from IP address 22.214.171.124 on Sep 29, 2011 7:13 AM This message has been edited by mirkobayerl from IP address 126.96.36.199 on Sep 29, 2011 7:09 AM This message has been edited by mirkobayerl from IP address 188.8.131.52 on Sep 29, 2011 7:07 AM This message has been edited by mirkobayerl from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Sep 22, 2011 5:14 AM This message has been edited by mirkobayerl from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Sep 22, 2011 4:40 AM
Jari Lievonen (Login JariL) Missing-Lynx members 18.104.22.168
September 22 2011, 5:03 AM
[quote]To get gold is not ONLY talent...you need to sell yourself and your product, know the right people..its a buissnes and not for senstive artists anymore.[/quote]
This is the challenge that any major competition faces today. To some participants the publicity assosiated with the medals, especially gold, is extremely important and may lead for example to reactions that Mirko described above. In my opinion at Euro Militaire people in charge of the competition are well aware of this moral hazard and do their best to make sure that models are judged on merit only. But no man made system is full proof and it is only as good as its weakest link.
I enjoy the people and the atmosphere at Euro Militare. Participating the competition is, if nothing else, a way of keeping track on your own development (or lack of it;-). Sometimes the results are more and sometime less to my liking but that's only human.
It would be nice to see Mirko's work again at Folkestone, even if only on show.
Mirko, välkommen till Tavastehus och Nordic Challenge i november. Seehttp://www.nordic-challenge.net/ Garanterar att atmösfären påminner dig om de gamla goda tider då IPMS Sveriges utstälning var i Armemuseet/Tekniska museet.
And..by the way...who took Gold medals this year??? Some of my favorites doens't get any emdal, even no commended, but i don't know who won.
I have seen some photos of the show, but not who got medal or not.
Anyway, like i told you, many things changed in Euro, and ofc ourse it is not like when we meet in Euro frist years.
I have judge Euro many times, and each year something happened, alswys a new history always.
That history of the" I always get gold medal" or " I got gold medal in other shows" sound very familiar to me
But the fault is not frOm the egocentric modeller but from the judge who give the non deserved golds or silvers , and just because he is scared to don't give a gold to a modeller who is getting popular. This is the main problem isn many shows. Judges are scared and they just follow the fashion, they give a Gold to this or that one just because he is getting famous, or he just publish in many magazines or he got many golds in other shows.
I think that the problem is the lack of criteria and independency of some jusdges.
Modelers with ego....exist and will exist always.
Modellers who think they deserv always the top awards... also.
Anyway, I was not there this year. so I cannot judge, but i have hear from some modelelrs that something happened.
It is no different here in America, some judges have
September 22 2011, 8:50 AM
actually politicked a model in a category I was judging in "because the judge knew the Modeler". It is a sad situation worlwide. Another thing I do not care for is the no sweeps rule, you have five models in one category and three are markedly superior to the others but since they have been built by the same person....you have to give a third place to an inferior model. Goes against the grain of judging objectively.
1 year i was taking photoes for m v m while the juging was going on, i asked a judge why did so and so get a gold and another didnt? at the end of the exsplanation he said some modelers make a living from modeling so they are judged favourably! if so my point is they are commiting froud! people pay to enter the compatition so all should be judged the same! if they take money then disregard certain models becouse they are not names surely this is wronge! i also ave a issue with putting names on the cards under the models, they shouldnt in my opinion they should be anonimus! saying that i think judging will always upset some people no matter wat as we are all human. just my pennies worth! alan
I usually avoid discussions like this, but I feel compelled to add my views as regards the judging at Euro Militaire, a show which I have attended and competed at for many years.
By way of introduction, my name is Michael McLaughlin, I write articles for Military Modelling magazine in my spare time and I have been competing in the major model shows in the UK (Euro, On-Track, MAFVA Nationals and BMSS Nationals)over the past year. Going by the publicity and exposure theory I should have come home from Euro with medals.....
I entered four models at Euro 2011 in the diorama, military figure, civilian figure and miscellaneous civilian classes. Only one model was given an award; a highly commended which in layman's terms means: "Your model is close, but not quite up to medal standard."
I have to say that in my opinion my models were not as good as the medal winners, which in addition to being perfectly finished also had an extra 'something' which took them to a different level.
My favourite diorama,this year was titled "Benzin" which depicted a scene in the North African desert during a sand storm. The extra something hit me when I leaned closer to get a better look and I was convinced that I was going to get sand blown in my eyes, so much so that I instinctively closed my eyes and stepped back onto someone's foot!
It really is impossible to tell by looking at photos the standard of the models in the competition some models photograph well, but do not look so good to the eye which leads into the building for the camera or the eye discussion.
Last year I conducted an experiment, I entered the same models at the major UK shows and not model one model consistently received awards. One model which won best of show at Trucks 'n' Tracks did not receive an award at any other show and models which failed to get any award at Trucks 'n' Tracks received golds silvers and bronzes at other shows. Only one model received an award at Euro and that was a Commended.
I have come to the conclusion that in most competitions a model catches the judges' eye, but at Euro the standard of work,sheer volume of entries, inventiveness and originality makes it much more difficult to catch the eye of the judges. I think that the way that the standard of the medal winners improves year on year that my models will never bother the judges when they are deciding on the gold medal awards, but I will keep trying.
(Login jimmy66) Missing-Lynx members 22.214.171.124
same all over the world
September 22 2011, 11:06 AM
yep as much as i'll never get a chance to go sounds like to much ******** going on there anyway ,the one thing ive always liked about EURO from what i seen in pictures was the no referance material stacked hi beside a model like they do here in Aus and some young kid could build an awesome flawless build but get hung because he couldnt afford all the referance or lack of
1) Judges must be enought smart to avoid to follow fashions or VIP poeple in the shows.
2) Judges must have enought knologements of some areas, like history, paint, Scratch...and a good combination of judges can cover all areas. This is why sometimes there are 3 judges.
3) Judges should haven't friends in the competition.
4) Judges should haven't own tastes or favorite subjects in contests.
5) ANONIMATUS...stupid thing. Everybody know who is who in the shows. Missing Lynx is the showcase before the shows.
And,..... a good judge should haven't doubts about if this one deserve the gold or nothing. You can miss something...but you cannot say this is gold medal and second later...ok...maybe is nothing!!
I remeber some years ago, judging a Mario Eens model in Euro, I Decided give his model a Silver because I thought that this model was not as good as his preview ones, and was not the standard that year. His model was a bit shy in some points, so...I took that decision. It was very SAD to me, because he was my friend, and I was his fan!!! But I needed to give him just silver when he "expect" (and everybody) a gold.
many of his friends were veryyyy disapointed with me, but not Mario, who accepte it very well.
Sometimes, the people think that the awards must FIT with their own imaginations. Sometimes, Judges think exactly the same...and they think the golds must be like they and others expect.
Big MISTAKE.....from ORGANIZATORS, not from these judges. (maybe these judges just should continuing modelling, that's all)
When the judges are the wrong ones, the organizators are the responsables. This is my opinion.
"Missing Lynx is the showcase before the shows."
I've checked this year winners on classes 13 to 16.
They're 75 medals, and only 3 works had been shown on Constructive Comments for a month before Euro Militaire. They have received a Gold, a Bronze and a Commended.
"To get gold is not ONLY talent...you need to sell yourself and your product, knowing the right "people"..its a buissnes and not for senstive artists anymore".
With Reference to your comment above I dont think I adhere to this rule, it is not my business but merely a hobby which the subject I model I am very passionate about. I entered an Afghan T-54 this year and was awarded a Gold medal for my efforts, I dont belong to any "club", use any fancy products, although I am guilty of posting models on the internet...maybe not specifically as you suggest 1 or 2 weeks before the competition. Actually this year I did not post any images of the model anywhere on the net. Over the past few years I have had several articles published in various magazines, and in no way do I think this has influenced any decisions judges may have had in awarding me a Gold this year. I would like to think it was purely down to the attention to detail in the research, build and finish of the model.
A thanks must go to you Mirko for your entries all those years ago, as the class 13 as we know it now [be that good or bad?] would not exist at all in its present form. I hope in no way you take any offence to my comments and continue to post on Missing Lynx. I felt very proud to receive such an accolade at such a prestigious event as Euro Militaire.
(Login hazzardm) Missing-Lynx members 126.96.36.199
so basically it's a con job!!
September 22 2011, 3:06 PM
Mirkos statement above just confirmed what I have suspected for some time, Euromilitaire is a back slapping self congratulatory fest for an inner clique. Frankly I am appalled by that admission
TALENT is the ONLY thing to judge by, I have judged at AMPS Nats, MAFVA Nats, T&T and lots of other local shows and the fact that I may or may not know the modeller never biases my judging. If it's good it gets rewarded, if not it doesn't, the fact that someones 'pride' may be hurt is irrelavent.
I now know why my models which have won AMPS Best of Shows, Best in class, MAFVA Nats best of shows have got S@d all at Euro
This is the final nail in the coffin, goodbye Euro and good riddance, you won't see me again
(Login rinaldi119) Missing-Lynx members 188.8.131.52
Disagree with some of what's been said
September 22 2011, 6:24 PM
Not sure how your post is really relevant other than to you and that modeler at that moment in time. It reads as if you are painting Euro judging with a broad brush to the rest of the contestants. It's just one anecdotal story...bruised egos will happen regardless.
Your comments on promoting one's own work are a bit ridiculous though. So what? Its been tradition around the forums for years to showcase one's pre-event work and frankly I don't think it has too much influence either way on what medal is handed out. The judges are grown men and think we can pass a better affirmation than that? And besides what do you care what products are used or not used on a model? Does it make a difference if it is an all Humbrol model, or a Tamiya+MIG products one? It all goes to the support of our hobby, nothing more. Whether one gets paid for it or not, it's their own business.
We all have our different takes on each project and we certainly don't all need to follow a set of guidelines for each model do we? It's the mass variety of styles and takes on each model that makes this of great interest and a special hobby.
Mark H. -
You come off as a whiny brat. I saw your stuff at Euro after the AMPS BoS and thought it medalled appropriately. Instead of crying about it, build again and make it a goal to win a gold, if that is what so concerns you. It took me four years to get mine and it's a huge source of pride, and I didn't know the judges personally. Each show has a unique perspective, and for Euro finishes can be just as important as builds. I felt you played it very conservative on your finishes, but were given the appropriate recognition on your construction/build aspect. Believe me, you won't be missed with comments like that.
Each show plays to a certain tune. Euro has switched there's up under new ownership, but by and large has still maintained its premiere status. 2010 was a great show regardless of the silly issues in 2009. I heard the judges were new to class 13 this year, and were not up to the expert levels we've come to expect. I think there is a good chance this will be corrected next year, the guys that run show are not idiots by any stretch. They've proven me/us wrong on more than one occasion by making the necessary changes to improve the show. Note the high marks for the seller's floor this year. That used to be a source of complaints in the past couple of years. They solved the photo issues too. So give them a chance to fix the judges for next year as well, there is a solid track record within the show organizers to do so. It wasn't a big problem last year in fact, and think it just a bad blip on the radar for this year.
Does everyone always get what they want? Come on fellas, we know this is all mostly bruised egos and wounded pride talking. Time to man up and get back to work...I too certainly have personal opinions on medal levels, and no they don't always jive with what was handed out, sometimes erratic even, but there is usually a good reason behind it.
And stop thinking that a previous gold or BoS or whatever is some sort of qualifier...or that "I'm always silver and never gold"...these yearly complaints are becoming the norm and that's a real shame and takes away from the energy and passion we have for what we do. It's a big distraction at the end of the day. I took a silver home a few years ago and knew I had it in me to make it a gold, so I went to work on it some more. It turned out to be one of my personal favorite models and I learned a lot from it.
Use the negative vibe to drive it into something better, a lot of this complaining is such wasted energy otherwise.
By and large, I've seen little hard evidence to confirm that this is some widespread conspiracy of friends back slapping friends in the judging room. But we are a tight nit community so it's not unheard of sometimes for guys to think this is the case. Has it happened? Perhaps, but its not a big deal really. I think it happens at other shows too, if not more so. We are human after all (I'm not defending anybody, just saying take the blinders off a little). If anything, I would say it is as much a defense of the effort they have witnessed up close, so it is natural for a guy to be supportive of a friend even if they are a judge. And I also don't think it lessens other medals that are handed either...that's a pretty stout accusation without solid proof. Just my take on it all, take it for what it's worth, which may be next to nothing.
We all want to win in what we do, and that is justifiable given our exhaustive efforts, but I've yet to hear of a perfectly judged show ANYWHERE. And I also remember the good moments and there is just as much to say about that then anything else spoken of to date.
(Login LukePitt) Missing-Lynx members 184.108.40.206
Would it be worth including a seperate class for those who have won gold before
September 22 2011, 8:46 PM
As I have never been to Euro and basically don't know the dynamic of the place it seems to me a fair method would be, if you have won gold in that class before you should compete against other gold medal winners of that class in a seperate comp....just throwing the idea out their guys
(Login LukePitt) Missing-Lynx members 220.127.116.11
I see your point, and I know we all should build to a standard
September 23 2011, 5:32 AM
But,is it off putting for a "joe average" modeller to even enter a comp when you have to compete with very talented guys like your self and others(knowing full well you won't even rate a mention in despatches)in the same class? Are we as modellers doing ourselves any favours by having the same group year in and year out win?.Is their too much "sameness' to eveyones models these days? I myself, like Sci-Fi stuff and do agree that going head to head with an hystorical(real) vehicle is unfair as in my view the Sci- Fi stuff is easier to do (because you can make things up)where a real vehicle is by and large research based (and their for harder). The hobby can and should be open to all. I know we all can't be winners (the world doesn't work that way) so I do think their is a place for a "masters" (hate that word!) section and a "Joe average" section" If the model isn't good enough it won't win a gold in either section anyway as it's too a standard not a place. I really don't have the answers (I wish I did) but feed back from Judges is above all very important to improve. Again I'm just throwing these ideas out their fellas
(Login Albowie) MODERATORS ONLY - General 18.104.22.168
Gentlemen, thank you
September 22 2011, 8:58 PM
when I saw this thread this morning I was expecting fireworks and a literary gorefest but was pleasantly surprised to see a rational and vigorous discussion without the usual atacks and mud Slinging.
Thank you for keeping it on track.
I have nothing but admiration for the poor Judges involved. Where there is no scoresheet or written criteria to be scored against the claims of bias will always be more credible by the lack of evidence to back the decisions.
Jari Lievonen (Login JariL) Missing-Lynx members 22.214.171.124
But there is a written criteria at Euro
September 23 2011, 2:51 AM
There is a written criteria at Euro. As far as I know each of the judges gets it before the judging starts together with an updated instruction sheet that gives some quidelines for just that years show. The challenge that judges face in the most popular classes (e.g. Class 1 and class 13) is that at the end of the day most entries at Euro Militaire are so darn good, that it is vary hard to pick the winners.
(Login Albowie) MODERATORS ONLY - General 126.96.36.199
Ok, half way there
September 23 2011, 4:30 AM
Sorry, was unaware of that. If a judging sheet that clearly lays out the soring criteria is used then there is more chance of objective and even scoring across all judged models. It is not perfect as in any judging system but at least their is a record of how the result was arrived at.
I do concur that the talent on display would make it a very difficult proposition but not unachievable.
(Login MikeRoof) Missing-Lynx members 188.8.131.52
This is very interesting...
September 23 2011, 2:56 PM
"I don't have a dog in the fight," so to speak, since I've never attended, much less competed in a Euro, but I am interested in these written criteria.
Are these made public before, during or after the competition? If not, why not? Why would they be kept from the competitors? If they are not available to all, is there some "back channels" where some competitors get to know what the judges are going to look for while others are left in the dark? Are there some particular "controls" employed to ensure that no one gets advance knowledge at the expense of other competitors?
If these judging criteria are made public, how are they disseminated? Do the competitors know them before, during or after the show? If the criteria change year to year, are they published ahead of time in order to influence the direction of the coming year's entries? That is, are these criteria developed with some purpose in mind to "trend" the work being done by modelers (encouraging the use of certain techniques or materials while discouraging others, for instance)?
Does anyoine have any insights into how these criteria are devised? Who devises them and what qualifies them to do so? Is this done by committee or by an individual?
I ask mainly because I'm always interested in ideas for improvement and new directions to take my model building, so some detailed insight into the judging "guidance" used by one of the premier competions in the world would be interesting and useful to know.
I would think that if such criteria are given to the judges, then it would ultimately be made public at some time with the intent of creating the conditions for overall improvement in the hobby as well as a matter of fairness. Is the criteria for past years available somewhere?
It does seem, after reading these many comments and looking at some photos, that the judging is influenced significantly by "astistic" aspects that go beyond the straight forward matters of craftsmanship and skill.
However, art, like beauty, is usually in the "eye of the beholder" and it must be very difficult to define for a given judging cadre what is this year's standard for "modeling art" as compared to some previous year's definition.
At anyrate, is there a link or website that has these Euro contest judging criteria published or explaned?
(Login MikeRoof) Missing-Lynx members 184.108.40.206
September 24 2011, 11:49 AM
Well, that's pretty cryptic actually and leaves a lot more un-said than said. In fact, there's so little information there that I can't see how anyone could preview their own work and get any idea of how it would fair in the competition from those percentage break-downs.
Also, there's no explanation of the actual scoring. Do the judges use a 100 point scoring system or what? Do they even use points? And for any of the categories listed, what is used to determine the scores awarded? What exactly do the judges look for, say, in "painting," that they base their scores upon? How do the judging teams rectify the differences in scores between individual judges? Are the individual scores cummulative or averaged or what?
(The link to the competion results pdf. is broken, or at least I can't open it to see if scores are listed with the entries...)
Thanks for the link, but the judging criteria as posted are not very informative and really leave me with more questions than answers. They certainly don't give much useful information to provide direction for changes or improvement.
I guess this is an example of "different strokes for different folks." I suppose if it works for Euro Militaire, then that's all that matters...
"They certainly don't give much useful information to provide direction for changes or improvement."
I believe judges are available on the Sunday for criticism and comment. Several friends have made use of this to ask how to improve their models and where they may have come short of a certain standard
Personally I have never availed myself of this because I don't want to build to win, I just want to model better, so I focus all my efforts on just trying to improve in every way because my goal is to be a better modeller, not a better competition modeller, but that specific, in-depth advice is available from the judges if you want it
As for the judging, as I've said before, I do compete and will continue to compete at Euro. My personal best is a bronze this year for scratchbuilt/ converted and finished (Like MIG I think a model should be finished rather than shown naked, but its a personal opinion)
I compete for the fun of it and whilst I know the judging may not be perfect I have not got my 'awards' for following fashions or knowing the judges. Given I am a nobody in this hobby I doubt they know my models either. Personally I was very happy with a bronze. To me Euro is a tough competition. A bronze there is like a gold elsewhere. It doesn't bother me that a model that won me gold at MAFVA Nationals got nothing at Euro because in my eyes that toughter judging makes achievement at Euro that much sweeter
Maybe if I was used to getting golds I'd feel different, but personally I enjoyed the show and the competition.
(Login bernets) Missing-Lynx members 220.127.116.11
September 23 2011, 5:16 AM
Ok I will give you my observations on judging this year.
As already mentioned in the picture thread below, most of the problems occured in class 13. The judging in the dio and vignette classes was much more comprehensible and consistent. To an outside observer there was no discernible gradient of quality among the judged models from nothing over commended, highly commended, bronze, silver to gold. A lot of models, which got nothing at all, were clearly better built and finished than many of the awarded one`s. This is not to say that the awards actually given are all undeserved. It looked more as if 2/3 of the entries were somehow not judged at all or in another way not taken into the competition, even though they sat to the same shelve as the others.
The lack of fairness and comprehensibility of the judging was in stark contrast to the last few years (2007-2010). So there must have been a special problem this year.
Whether this problem was weak judges, resurgent cliquism or erratic new judging criteria, it will damage the credibilty of the show as a whole and the organisers should make sure Euro 2012 returns to the standards of 2010.
Finally there was the issue of premature removal of competition entries on Sunday. The AFV-shelves were noticably emptier by Sunday 12 o clock than they were on Saturday afternoon. This is totally unacceptable, even in the face of the poorest and most arbitrary judging. All the one day visitors were the idiots, who got to see only those models, who`s owners felt adequately rewarded. It would have been much better for all models to have remained in place, because in many instances a side by side comparison would have put the judging to shame.
Note: If you plan to attend next year, make sure your are present on Saturday!
"...The judging in the dio and vignette classes was much more comprehensible and consistent..."
Have you take a look at the gold winner in dios, The dingo in the jungle with the monkeys?
The figures were not painted to current standards, the vehicle didn't look as it had been on the jungle, perhaps just a short trip in the motorway fron the nearby workshop. This dio didn't have quality enough to deserve a gold medal when others with higher quality just won a silver medal, just because this one tells a history. So one good history has a better prize that a better done model?
As an spanish saying goes "The opinions are like the asses, everyone has his own" and the judges are humans, and their own tastes are reflecteds in the prizes they give
(Login Malta1565) Missing-Lynx members 18.104.22.168
You gonna get a surprise ...
September 24 2011, 10:41 AM
Mirko, many are claiming that friends of friends or the top brass gained the Golds, it is not true in my opinion, it is more the list gonna be a surprise to most, wait and you see. Some faces were new to that medals, only a couple were the veterans. What surprise me that the usual top brass who were lucky passed away with at the most a HC or C and yes there were a good number of these.
(Login Shermanm4) Missing-Lynx members 22.214.171.124
September 24 2011, 10:51 AM
Adam Wilder clinched 3 golds, Frazier Gray, ANdy Taylor and Hugo Luyten clinched another 3 respectively. These are the ones I can remember. There was a tiny 1/72 Ford GPW Seep which got a gold (surprised many)and I might have left out others...
Some discrepancies...how can a modeler get a GOLD with one model and NIL with another (equally impressive in my opinion). Could his standard of painting be so different in 2 models????
A beautifully painted T-34 was transferred from class 13 (painting Class)to the Scratch/converted class only because it had some add on armour skirts...where it obviously fared poorly compared to terrific scratch and converted works of art despite being beautifully painted and weathered (due to the fact that there were hardly any points given to it for the scratch or conversion work). At the same time a converted T54 (i believe converted from a T55) was left in class 13 where it deservedly won Gold. If adding sideskirts ????? amounts to a conversion wouldnt a T54 even more amount to a conversion...
These and many other issues mentioned above I believed contributed to making this euro a 'particular one' in terms of judging...and yes there will always be hurt egos and contentious decisions...but there is a difference between debatable decision and outright farsical..
I agree that this year SOMETHING HAPPENED AT EURO...and I'll leave the wording that way...as to me and many modelers out there...it is pretty obvious what is happening. Pity cos I believe theyre going to kill what was a great expo and I have already heard many modelers say they won't return. I don't agree with that reasoning despite sharing their own concerns and worries on the judging.
Furthermore I have heard a number of judges claim they will refuse to judge again as they feel they are being pulled down into the mud due to a number of judges which are spoiling the show...
I hope who has power to do something will do it...as for me Euro is more about meeting friends and fellow modelers and seeing beautiful pieces before my very eyes...
Just some of my thoughts...and to answer Mirko re who won Golds.
(Login bernets) Missing-Lynx members 126.96.36.199
agree with you on this one
September 28 2011, 5:56 PM
Alvaro, I agree with you on this one.
The general emphasis on "story" is especially problematic in
the vignette category though, because it puts normal, non spectacular, everyday frontline scenes, as seeen on most historic pictures, at a disadvantage. Many vignettes are too animated and look almost comicbook like, just to get a WOW from the judges.
The modeller who will just show his creation without hunger for fake noble metal, which only serves to feed his ego by raising him to the status of 'half-God', will not only make a huge step towards understanding what modelling should be about, but will also feel an enjoyable relief and re-discover what modelling was meant to be at the time it was invented.
(Login xplan303ex) Missing-Lynx members 188.8.131.52
It's very simple...
September 23 2011, 12:26 PM
The bottom line is, would you buy a DVD from me? No, cause you don't know who I am and don't have any indication of whether it's good or not. Now if you knew I had won a few medals and written a few books and articles...
Most debates in modern life can be solved easily, follow the money trail.
I'm glad I never participate in contests (not true actually, I do participate in what my LHS puts together, but because the prizes are $$$). My advice is, if modellers are suspecting things are not fair, then know what to expect. May not make it right, but it will save you time and energy.
Noel Petroni (Login NoelP) Missing-Lynx members 184.108.40.206
Can a competitor see....
September 24 2011, 3:25 PM
......... the score sheet of the model he/she entered?
It would be a good idea to charge Euro1 to buy the score sheet. This would help the modeller to see where he failed to excell.
I've read most of the posts above and in truth I'm always confused as to how some awards are given.
Theses are my questions:
1) Do judges see every model and judge as per the JUDGING CRITERIA sheet shown on the Euro Militaire web site?
2) Or do the judges look for the interesting stuff and focus on that?
3) It seems to me that a modeller has to be extra creative from the wooden base upwards. Good painting and good weathering seems not to be enough.... there has to be the "eye-catcher"...... but is this what modelling is all about?
Are we turning modelling into extraordinary art............ a simple diorama with good painting skills and weathering and correct history is not enough?
Does a modeller have to wreck his brains to produce a display of art so it will be noticed in the competition?
I think that what you have suggested would be an excellent idea but I doubt it would ever happen.
Quite a few people have hit the nail on the head in this thread of the problems with Euromilitare as a whole. I didn't attend the show this year choosing instead to spend my money on a trip to Saumur back in June (where my French friends were also complaining about the judges at that show) and I think I made the right choice.
Earlier this week a few of us were in discussion with a clubmate (an excellent modeller) who attended this year and he told us of the talk amongst (other equally excellent) modellers at the show in relation to the judging. None of us were surprised - I heard the same thing from one of the judges (again a top modeller) who was disgusted by the behaviour of some of his fellow judges a couple of years ago, and I also heard Mirko's story about the guy who "always got gold" at the start of this thread.
Euromilitaire is meant to be one of - if not THE - premier military modelling shows in the world but to me it seems that year after year it gets worse with more and more controversy around the quality of the judging. No one is perfect but at least try and get it better. There has to be absolute integrity and open-ness if the show is to get back to what it was.
Medals etc should be awarded to those who deserve them for the quality of their model-making, accuracy, historical correctness, build quality, etc but not for the size of their egos, numbers of articles they have published in magazines or strategic posting of models on Constructive Comments!
Finally, it's interesting (to me anyway) that this only seems to affect the vehicle categories and doesn't seem to be so much of a problem amongst the figure modellers.
...I spent all my energies making accurate stuff, models based in photos, and scenes or models as much realistic as possible.
But the show and the awards turn out crazy many times. Sometimes I entried a great model, maybe some of my best and I got nothing, but other of my models in the same edition, which was just **** got medal, incomprensible for me. Well, that example is fruit of the mediocre judges criteria, with no artistic knologements or good background. This can happen in any category. They just choose what they like. And yes...the judges as far as I know ALWAYS choose the best "looking good model", so..they go for the eye-catchers...I means, the most populars or well know models. And also, many of them feel the obligation to give a medal because this or that model is famous.
But in another hand...we talk abut Sci Fi tanks...and I totally agree.
Some ayers ago, Mario Eens won the first GOLD with a paper pazer. So...this was the begining of what Mirko said. Models with not history accurancy, just fantasy. (I entried last year my panther II what if, but was the only way to show it to the public) but I still dissapoinetd with these subjects.
because, if we accept that, next year I will entry a Paolo Parente Dust Walker, or a Warhammer 40.000 tank, and they will be forced to accept these models...right???
Don't get me wrong, I love paper pabnzer, but i know I am doing fansty, or hypotetic histories, and I know it should be in another class.
In the same way, I am happy to see that Scratch build category was divided in 2: painted and unpainted, because to me...an unpainted model is the same kind of FANTASY than a paper panzer tank. If we tray to represent the reality, then, we must paint or models.
But now it is divided in two classes and it is fine.
To me....Euro show is getting lost with judges selection, who can be strict with models entries in the show. And judges are too influenced by what happen in forums or magazines.
But...also the espectator are influenced by what they see here or maggazines!!! caution!
(Login MKarnowka) Missing-Lynx members 220.127.116.11
September 25 2011, 10:19 AM
...how do the higher ups that are responsible expect decent turn outs in the future if such legitimate grumblings become attached with the show? When I started modelling I'd read Military Modelling magazine and admire the coverage of Euromilitaire, and I always hoped to attend the show, perhaps even participate. I think it would be better to attend ScaleModelWorld or the like instead of Euro now. I don't believe that its outrageous for a modeller to expect a modicum of balance and fairness when submitting their work to be judged.
A few years ago there was the big belly ache that no outside photographers from other magazines were permitted, now the judging issues have been made known for all to take in. Let them keep their show and have things done their way, but from here on in, a participant can only fault themselves for participating in a dynamic that's flawed to put it lightly.
It must be said that through Euro many of us have seen the work of a great many modellers such as MIG, Mirko, Rhodes Williams, Doug Lee and so many others. I hope to perhaps meet many of you in person in the next few years, and perhaps it will be at a forum where the judging isn't considered way in advance of everyone arriving. Regards, and happy modelling, MK
(Login zappa93) Missing-Lynx members 18.104.22.168
I have seen the tail wag the dog...
September 25 2011, 4:35 PM
...at a US national show.
About ten years ago, or so, a certain person's entry won Best of Show at Euro.
At the US show, the piece was given a Silver, which disqualified it from the running for Best of Show. It was a beautiful piece, but had incorrect color schemes on its AFVs, and its historical accuracy was extremely suspect. The former point was to be taken into consideration during the judging process, which I suppose is why it only got a Silver medal.
A show official had the piece re-judged on the spot, and hey, guess what? It won a Gold and got BoS. Apparently the official felt that as Euro leads, the US must follow.
One could read all sorts of stuff into that one!
I, and one of the modeling world's most prominant figures, witnessed this first-hand. We gazed in slack-jawed wonder...
(Login Albowie) MODERATORS ONLY - General 22.214.171.124
I guess the AMMS criteria has changed
September 25 2011, 8:02 PM
after seeing an Australia Centurion in markings not applicable to that tank get a category win (the well known modeller must have liked it's "name"?). Just goes to show that competitions all over the world will be called on Judging regardless of the systems in place
Jari Lievonen (Login JariL) Missing-Lynx members 126.96.36.199
September 26 2011, 2:49 AM
And what is the summary of the discussion?
-Models should be historically accurate/accuracy should count as criteria?
-Judges should be better? I guess this means that the organisers should prepare the judging better so that all judges know what is expected, or?
-Competitiors should read the rules so that they know how they are evaluated?
On a perfect world, yes to all three questions.
Consequences on class 13?
- Historical accuracy: Moving the Panzer 46 to class 24 won't decrease significantly the number of entries on class 13, and will increase significantly the prestige of winners on both classes. Wasn't BOS 2010 a class 24?
- Better judges: Hard to do. They're good enough. Perhaps the trouble for a few competitors are the hard criteria, not the judges.
- Read the rules: Doing so, some people will see vanish their hopes for a medal even before entering the competition.
Euro Militaire is a tough competition, who want an easier one?
...as far as i remeber from my judge times, only the bigger medal is allowed in each class, one for each modeller in the same class...so..it avoid that one guy collect 48 medals in the same class at once.
But now see that everything changed in this Euro...
Noel Petroni (Login NoelP) Missing-Lynx members 188.8.131.52
Nearly every entry deserves....
September 27 2011, 1:27 AM
,,,.. an award. I'm talking about Militray diorama and Vignettes and Military vehicles.
When I see the models and look at the paint work etc....... I would say that a very large percentage deserve an award such as C or HC.
To me the judges just look at the models and the ones that catch their eye are the ones up to judge! If I happen to enter a vignette that has good paint work decently painted figures, historical accuracy and so forth BUT has no punch or story ..... it will go unnoticed! And all the the hard work and effort would have been in vain.
Do I really need to have an original story to get an award?
Is the skill and modelling technique not enough?
Why only one Gold is allocated to each class (I understood that this can happen)?
Why aren't the models judged individually and awarded individually?
"Do painters and other artist's have a first, second, third, competition?"
Yes, lots of them: The Turner Prize, Arte Laguna Prize, Jerwood Prize, the Sovereign European Art Prize....
The only difference is the prize is not a medal, it tends towards thousands of pounds/ dollars/ euros, and there is usually only a first place awarded
People always hold up art as the ideal when in actual fact its more closely related to (and arguably unduly influenced by) money and far more controversial than modelling
In fact, the money aspect of art and the fact that the art world is antithetical to the ideal that the best and most original work should get the attention (rather than the most fashionable and marketable) is one reason why I decided not to pursue it when I finished my degree in Fine Art practice
By comparison modelling competitions are taken far less seriously and are what they should be; fun and not a lot more
There is nothing wrong with competitions in modelling, only with people that take them too seriously.