The Military Watch Resource

This is the site for enthusiasts of military timepieces. All discussions related to military timepieces, and watches in general are welcome. Please post your own personal watches for sale on the PX (not here.) Links to watches for sale are permissable as long as they are for discussion purposes. Links to fake and counterfeit watch sites are prohibited. There is a Zero Tolerance Policy in effect for rude and inconsiderate behavior. Any submissions to this site remain the property of the original author/contributor. Anonymous or inconsiderate postings may be deleted at the discretion of a moderator.
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*** Well it's been a good run.. Farewell to Network54 (more)

Hi MWRines,

I've been avoiding this day because Network54 has been really, really good to us. However, in light of the recent downtime problems with Network54, we've switched over to dedicated forumware. Please join us at our new home. The Network54 forum will remain here for archival purposes, but you won't be able to post any new messages.

Here's the link:

http://206.67.55.7/cgibin/mwr.pl

Be sure to bookmark the new MWR forum.

Happy New Year!

Bob

This message has been edited by militarywatch from IP address 4.35.216.165 on Feb 2, 2002 12:10 AM
This message has been edited by militarywatch from IP address 4.35.216.165 on Feb 2, 2002 12:10 AM

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 3:17 PM
from IP address 4.35.217.53

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Check out MWR Parallel Universe via the Home page...

by Ned

There is a parallel MWR universe now at www.braodarrow.net. Check it out by clciking on main forum link on the MWR homepage.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 9:11 AM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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What price to expect for a 1000m O & W Caribbean?

by scuba

Hi,

I would like to know how much I should expect to pay for a good condition 1000m O & W Caribbean.
And there seems to be different dial colors, are some more valuable than others?

Thank you very much.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 9:04 AM
from IP address 213.3.185.26

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When the big batch of NOS Caribbean's surfaced, (more)

by Bill

back when MWR was just starting up, the initial popularity had posters guessing that the watch would soon be going for over $1000. My impression is that this hasn't happened, and that they topped out around $800. That would be for mint, or pretty near.

The black dial seems to be the more common. The blue less seldom seen.

Note that even an untouched NOS specimen will require an immediate full mechanical, as the movement will be bone-dry and the seals will have turned to viscous goop.

Also to be considered, the high, scratch-prone crystal is almost impossible to replace.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 9:33 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Thanks Bill, H.Seung, Chris R - all's well that ends well

I contacted the seller of the faked Seamaster 300, told him of the problems with it and we decided to part company without blasting eachother's feedback. Thanks again for saving me from my folly. Of course I had already purchased a $460 money order to complete the transaction. As luck would have it, the new SAR also costs $460. You can see where this is going.... I will be proud to own an issue watch designed by members of this forum. Chris

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 5:00 AM
from IP address 147.39.62.2

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Glad you're 'joining the club' Chris! Aloha! (nt)

:

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 9:46 AM
from IP address 205.173.95.39

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A good outcome! nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 9:48 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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It was a pleasure to help you to achieve a good end (nt)

.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 1:32 PM
from IP address 212.144.178.195

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Rolex Mil Sub in Bournmouth.......more

Has anybody been able to authenticate this ebay mil sub?
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1682353778
What happened when it was last offered? Didn't it hit reserve? What was the high bid?
Thanks
Jon

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 12:37 AM
from IP address 203.96.111.200

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If they have, it hasn't been announced, though if (more)

by Bill

I knew it was genuine I might be keeping quiet about it myself! Lack of a caseback photo, etc., plus that annoying private auction business -- not attractive in this price-range!

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 11:33 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Anyone know when the Doxa re-issues are due out?<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:52 PM
from IP address 128.115.73.104

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Reissue/repro vintage Japanese military wristwatche sources?

I collect modern vintage-style mechanical wristwatches, with an emphasis on military pieces. Are there any Japanese mechanical watches available that meet the above criteria? Please advise and many thanks. Happy New Year.

Bob

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:46 PM
from IP address 216.77.219.169

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Well, I'm only aware of ...

... a Seiko Re-issue of a watch from the period, and some quartz watches in the Japanese WW2 style.

seiko historical collection "laurel" ref# SCVM001

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 11:47 PM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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There was a PX posting ...

by Ian Parkin

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=48905&messageid=1009077215

IAP

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 9:02 AM
from IP address 12.232.106.172

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That's the only nice one I know of. (more)

by Bill

Seiko, from about two years ago, comes in a nicely oversized wooden box, all writing in kanji. I have a hunch these were only available by mail, as I looked for but didn't see them in Tokyo last year.

Otherwise, there are just these clunky quartz jobs:

http://page4.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/d9820223

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 9:55 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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tritium or maraglo, which is best????

one more question from a newbie. Iam familiar with the tritium, but what is maraglo? Does it work as well as tritium? what are the pros and cons? Once again, Thank you for any info you can give. Joe

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 8:09 PM
from IP address 134.67.6.24

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Tritium, Maraglow, different horses for ...

... different courses. For shere time-length of lumination the Winner is Tritium, but Maraglow/Luminova is bright and will be visible many hours after charging, but Maraglow can be used in enviroments where radiation monitoring is crucial. But for run-of-the-mill "good bright illumination" Tritium is best (while still young) though Maraglow/Luminova does not have an age-limit for charging and illuminating.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 8:49 PM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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Different Properties, Different Advantages - (more)

by Ned

The mildly radioactive beta particles emitted by tritium constantly excite the phosphor coating the glass vials (if it is Tritium gas vials that are used), or excite the phosphors in the paint used. For about a dozen years whatever has this luminous treatment applied to it will glow. The major advantage of tritium systems is that they produce light independent of their exposure to ambient light. They are also generally brighter than photo-phosphorescent systems after both have been in the dark for a couple of hours, and tritium system's light output stays more or less constant through out the night. Their disadvantages are the fact that they will produce light for a limited number of years. They are roughly half as bright after about 10 years, and they continue to decline in brightness until they are not bright enough to have useful luminous properties (about 15 years or so after application). Another disadvantage is that they can not be used in environments where radiation detectors are in use, as they can trigger alarms and cause other associated nuisances.

Maraglo is a specially treated and specially applied version of Luminova - a specially formulated photphosphor (light excites its molecules to emit photons, ie. light, instead of radioactive particles). It is generally regarded as the best of the non-tritium materials in terms of its combined brightness and the persistence of its luminosity after light exposure. Most people cite the figure "10 times as bright" when comparing Luminova to conventional phosphors. In fact when you consider brightness after several hours it is even better than that, and Maraglo is superior to regular Luminova. It's advantages compared with tritium are:

it should (if protected from, excessive heat, UV light and water) have a longer useful life than tritium systems;

it is non-radioactive, and, therefore can be used in more environments, and without any fear of radiation exposure (although tritium is also generally regarded as safe if kept in the watch),and,

for a time just after it is recharged by exposure to light, it is brighter than even tritium gas vials (this superior brightness, however, is lost after something like an hour or two (depending on a lot of factors).

Hopefully, others will have more information and other opinions to add to this summary. Bottom line for me is that tritium glass vials are the best. Tritum paint next, and Maraglo third. Although I hasten to add that this whole question would be secondary for me, and well behind many other factors, like what movement, dial legibility, cost, and so on.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 8:56 PM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Worth hitting 'Print'.Excellent summary!<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:24 PM
from IP address 128.115.73.104

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Anybody ever purchased from www.worldofwatches.com??? Thanks. <nt>

/

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 7:29 PM
from IP address 12.88.96.249

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Is this the company that got a lot of attention on Watchnet a couple of years ago???....nt

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 11:56 PM
from IP address 203.96.111.200

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O.K., O.K. I was sucked into this and couldn't resist

by Ron

the E-Bay auction last Sunday where I bid on two watches, the 6B Jaeger Le Coultre ca. 1948, and the IWC mark 11 ca. 1948. Won both of them and sure as hell hope I wasn't that foolish. Most likely overpaid, but I just don't see these pieces very often. Any way would like to ask advice about getting them serviced properly and wonder if I should send them off to their respective manufacturers for it, or take them to my local watchmaker? Thanks, Ron

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 6:27 PM
from IP address 65.34.212.171

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Links to them? nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 9:58 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Could the IWC be this one ..

by Ian Parkin

from the master of dark and blurry photos ?

I actually thought that this one had sold previously to a MWR regular.

IAP

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1681723507

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 2:12 PM
from IP address 12.232.106.172

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Could the JLC be this one ...

by Ian Parkin

from the master of dark and blurry images ?

IAP

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1681725830

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 2:14 PM
from IP address 12.232.106.172

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Is this 24 hr Elgin A11 on Ebay correct? (more)

Doe the 24 hour Elgin A11 have a 539 movement as this seller states?

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1683156602

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 4:11 PM
from IP address 12.88.104.132

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Wrong movement and hands. Case type is correct. Band is not an original either. nt

by James D.

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 4:26 PM
from IP address 129.162.1.32

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Should have a G-647 or G-685. nt

by James D.

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 4:27 PM
from IP address 129.162.1.32

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I bought a "NOS" 24 hr Elgin military not too long ago

by Ron

and it was advertised as having a cal. 539 movement. When I had it opened for service, it had a 685 movement (with NO letter in front of the 685). The movment looked NOS. Probably the seller has not opened the watch to look at the movement to verify. That is what happened in my case. I overpaid, but after bringing this discrepancy to the seller's attention, I was refunded a suitable amount. There is a lot of confusion, neglect, etc. in this world-wide watch market! Ron

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 6:20 PM
from IP address 65.34.212.171

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I don't agree that there is a lot of confusion...

by James D.

the sellers know that buyers are willing to pay a premium for what is not a very common watch, and that most buyers either don't know or don't care to know that the ONLY movements original to the Elgin true 24 hours watches are either the G-647 or a serial numbered G-685. Most likely, your movement is out of an instrument clock. That's not bad, but still is not correct. I hope your watch at least is in a Keystone case and not a Star case. That's another common mistake when sellers put these watches together. Best regards,

James D.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 8:06 AM
from IP address 209.240.222.130

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#141 checking in...

As if xmas and new year's wasn't good enough I just got SAR #141 from the post office. I couldn't be a happier chappier

Now the search for the perfect strap begins in earnest heh heh.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 3:20 PM
from IP address 63.60.241.113

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Congrats!...

by rgs

Good to hear.

I knew the moment I purchased the watch that I would be looking for a bracelet to fit it. I usually only prefer a bracelet. I am curious as to what the new Marathon bracelet will look like and when it will be available.

At present, I have a rubber dive stap on it and may change my mind about a bracelet since it looks so good. The strap is from an old Pulsar dive watch. The strap fits the lugs and is a little wider after that. I think the watch needs a wide strap to look its best.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 6:55 PM
from IP address 64.12.105.162

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Re: Congrats!...

I grabbed a cheapo Hirsch (sp?) rubber strap with a brushed buckle for it on the way to work, looks mighty fine...the SAR seems, if anything, lighter than my Seiko diver, more legible and MUCH brighter in the dark. Next step is decyclopation!

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 11:22 PM
from IP address 210.215.48.8

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Fout different ChronoSports on xbay including UDT (more)

by Elias

This UDT is a later version (three pushers vs two pushers on early versions) and the service center in Connecticut still carries parts for it. They also still have NOS black PVD bracelets. I will not be bidding on any.
Happy New Year
Elias
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&ebaytag1=ebayreg&query=chronosport&query2=chronosport&search_option=1&exclude=&category0=&minPrice=&maxPrice=&ebaytag1code=0&st=&SortProperty=MetaEndSort

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 10:55 AM
from IP address 24.206.13.33

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diver model question

by XB

What is this diver model worth?

Collectable?

Thanks.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 3:26 AM
from IP address 195.186.186.162

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Waterborne strap question (more)

Hello:

Received my straps from Reef Scuba yesterday for my SAR. Any links as to how to use them properly? Same as the Nato G10?

Thanks,

Richard

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:20 AM
from IP address 12.88.84.215

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Just like a NATO...

by Ned

except maybe modifiying it as James suggests, i.e., chop off one of the rings, and remove the Waterbourne patch to clean it up a bit.

I wear mine stock, and just as a NATO, but with the strap end tucked back over and under to keep it out of the way. Best. Ned

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 10:59 AM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Thanks, Ned. That's what I thought but (more)

Hi Ned:

My SAR was a bit tight, probably due to the Waterborne label and the extra keeper. I'll take one of the keepers off - any suggestions on the best way to do that?

Thanks,

Richard

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 11:05 AM
from IP address 12.88.97.17

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James suggested...

by Ned

taking one of the rings off of the 6 O'clock end. See thread...

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=48806&messageid=1009027940

I haven't tried it myself, but if I were to do this modification I would take off a ring on the 6 end. Both are in a single loop of nylon, so you'll be left with one ring that will give you a bit more room for the SAR. How to do it?

Maybe.. clamp one of the rings in a vise and use a hacksaw to cut through one side. then open the ring with leverage (screwdriver?) and slide it off.

Were I to take off the label, I would carefully cut the stitching with a razor blade and under magnification. Tweezers would be a big help in pulling out the treads.

Let us kow how it turns out.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 12:19 PM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Hi Ned - I'm going to take your advise (more)

I've already removed the label by first removing the stitching which now gives me a little play, but not enough.

Tomorrow I'm going to my local locksmith and I'll ask him to cut off (with the right tool!) that inner ring at the 6:00 position.

Will let you know how it turns out.

Thanks very much for the help.

Best,

Richard

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 1:22 PM
from IP address 12.88.85.66

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I used some heavy duty electrician's wire cutters to remove>

by Jack

the extra ring.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 1:55 PM
from IP address 152.163.197.194

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No need to cut the extra ring (more)

The ring can simply be pulled apart far enough to slip right off the band. In case you ever need the extra D-ring its still there to be used. I did this on my 1" strap without any difficulties.

Dan

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 7:56 PM
from IP address 63.228.142.89

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Another Leonidas question for SideB

by Mike

Simon, I depressed the pin at the top of the watch to activate the timer, only to find that it would not return to its proper position. Does this sound like a broken return spring. Also, when a professional watch repairman works on such a piece, does he need "original parts" or are "generic" ones available to perform most repairs? Either way, I have a German fellow close by that does wonderful work and this will now give me a chance to have the watch cleaned etc. You answered my previous question, pertaining to the silver on my watch, does NT mean "no" or plated? Thank you again for your much valued opinion!

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:16 AM
from IP address 64.228.196.189

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Far fewer Adanac Nav.'s on ebay these days...more

by Ronbo

I have been following them for a couple months now and there seems to be a definite decline in the number being sold.There is still something special about this watch to me which seems transitional.You know-not a Benrus and not a Marathon.I actually prefer it to my Marathon 'Lighthouse' models on some occasions.Might be worth tucking a couple more away for a rainy day.Happy New Year-Ronbo.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 5:43 AM
from IP address 134.9.137.57

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That is true

My Adanac is the watch to keep! Classic design and something that will never let you down, I bought my watch at a fleamarket and will never let it go.
Keep on holding on to these diamonds in the rough.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 5:56 AM
from IP address 152.163.201.61

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great watch but the price has dropped and people are holding n/t

/

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 7:39 AM
from IP address 205.188.200.199

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Any idea what they are worth now as compared to before they dropped?nt

nt.

dmh

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 7:58 AM
from IP address 152.163.201.61

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Not sure what they are going for now (much more)

by Bob

Hiya,

At one time I was seeing Adanacs go as high as $250, and many for around $225. Rarely did I see them for any less than $200. You may find some hovering around the $200 mark these days, or even a bit less.

This is just a hunch, but I think you might blame part of the reason for the price drop on MWR.

Prior to MWR, I used to look high and low for both Marathon and Adanac steel cased Navigators. I personally bought 4 or 5 of them in the early days of MWR. I rarely saw more than one or two on eBay at any given time, and sometimes there were lapses of several weeks when I didn't see any.

Then the steel cased Navigator was made available on MWR. The steel cased Navigator was made available to just about anyone who wanted one and since they bear so much resemblance and share so much provenance with the early Marathons and Adanacs, folks probably got their fill. A lot of people took advantage of the ready supply and bought one or two.

My prediction is that prices will start to rise again when I run out of steel cased Navigators to sell and people start to realize they can't just buy one when they feel like it.

Best Regards,

Bob

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 8:09 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.87

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Now that you mention this Bob....

I think you hit the nail on the head! The old law of supply and demand at work. If MWR causes more people to be interested in military watches, our collections should increase in value. The downside is the next watch we want to buy is going to be more expensive. It is a double edged sword unless you are ready to liquidate. I'm not ready to liquidate. I hope you sell out of the re-issue soon. It will be interesting to see what the market does then! HAPPY NEW YEAR to all

dmh

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:36 AM
from IP address 152.163.201.61

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I'm with you>>

by Yao

I have an Adanac and a Nav I love my Adanac. That trasitional quality is very alluring plus it has the heft of a Benrus case. Still like my Marathons but that Adanac just has something about it and I not just talking about the reverse Canada thing.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 3:26 AM
from IP address 163.32.4.235

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mineral glass or arcrylic crystal??????

Im wanting to purchase my first military watch. I have no experience with them. I see them offered with glass and arcrylic crystals. does the arcrlic scratch easy? which is most durable? thank you in advance for any info you can help me with. Joe

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 3:06 AM
from IP address 134.67.6.24

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I prefer acrylic to mineral glass any day (more)

by Bob

Hello Joe,

Mineral glass cannot be buffed once it is scratched and it does scratch fairly easily. Acrylic scratches if you breath hard on it, but it polishes out just as easily with a bit of metal or plastic polish.

Sapphire is tough to scratch, but aesthetically it is dead when compared to the warmth of acrylic. I like to wear acrylic, I like to abuse sapphire. Mineral glass comes in last.

Best Regards,

Bob

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 7:42 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.87

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I like acrylic best

by RJ

I consider acrylic the most durable since it is harder to break than glass.

I've heard that glass is harder to break than sapphire. I'm really not sure, but for that reason I've always liked it better than sapphire. It's by far the most expensive also.

Some watches have a glass crystal with a layer of sapphire on top.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:27 AM
from IP address 64.12.105.31

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Acrylic. Mellow-looking, tactile, DOMED and easy to maintain. (more)

by Bill

I've restored acrylic crystals to like-new when they've been literally opaque with scratches. You can sand the entire surface off, then repolish. A scratch on mineral is there for good, at least in terms of what you can do at home.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 10:37 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL MWR-INES FROM ITALY!! (nt)

no text

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 1:38 AM
from IP address 151.27.139.91

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Happy New Year to you, and to all MWRines (more)

by Bob

Hi MWRines,

Hard to believe that MWR celebrates it's second birthday on January 17, 2002. We've come a long ways, and we've made some great friends.

Happy New Year to all!

Bob

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 7:58 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.87

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Bob, a thank you to you and a question (more)

Hi Bob:

First of all, a happy, healthy, and safe New Year to you. Again, thank you for all you've done to keep MWR a great place to learn from and meet new friends from all over the world.

Here's my question, however "newbie" it may be. When you switch over to your own software, how will be know the new address? Will our "favorites" link to MWR take us there?

Best to you,

Richard

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 8:36 AM
from IP address 12.88.84.215

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When I switch, all links will lead to the new forum (more)

by Bob

Hi Richard,

And if anyone has the old forum bookmarked, the final post will provide a link to the new forum too...

I would leave Network54 with a lot of trepidation. They have been really, really good to us, but lately, they seem to be down quite a bit. I haven't even seen a flashing banner in a long time.

Best Regards,

Bob

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 10:29 AM
from IP address 4.35.217.53

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ATP Picture Archive (more)

Happy New Year everyone!

I've set up an ImageStation album of dial, back and movement scans for ten different Army Time Pieces (ATPs).

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292152515

Enjoy!

Marvin

PS Actually, I haven't included a movement scan of the Ebel since I haven't figured out the mystery of that crazy case. If anyone can clue me in, I'll be able to post a movement scan of the Ebel as well.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 10:54 PM
from IP address 203.165.45.41

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Well done Marvin! Happy New Year!...nt

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 1:15 AM
from IP address 203.96.111.200

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My guess on the Ebel case (more)

by Foggy

Hi Marvin

It looks similar to the Roamer cases, as shown below, where the watch centre pushes out from the front. I've taken this Roamer apart before. It had a split stem, which I pulled out. Then I removed the crystal, and the movement came out through the front. Unusually for me, I also managed to put it back together correctly, and it still works !!

Cheers

Foggy

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 4:10 AM
from IP address 213.122.204.106

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Thanks, I'll give it a try. (nt)

.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 2:07 PM
from IP address 203.165.45.41

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Very nice collection Marvin...

Marvin,

Any comments or stories that go with these watches?

I don't know much about these ATPs. Which is the
rarest? Which is the most valued?

I like the Unitas the best.

Very impressive. Good work and thanks for sharing
the pictures.

M. M. Henry

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 11:36 AM
from IP address 24.69.255.204

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ATPs . . . (more)

Hi Maurice,

Thanks for the kind comments.

Army Time Pieces (ATPs) were the watches issued to the Royal Army before the WWWs. Actually, there was some overlap since, according to Ziggy, the ATPs were issued from 1939 to 1945 and the WWWs came into use in 1943. In many ways the ATPs were similar to the WWWs: luminous hands and markers, fixed lug bars, 15-jewel Swiss movements, sub-seconds, water resistance, and screwback cases. The most obvious difference was that they usually had white dials (a few did have black dials). Also, they were smaller than the WWWs. As you know, the WWWs averaged about 35 mm in diameter (w/o crown), but the ATP average is around 32 mm. The measurements for mine are:

Cortebert 31 mm
Cyma 28.5 mm
Ebel 32 mm
Grana 32 mm
Lemania 31 mm
Moeris 33 mm
Record 32 mm
Rotary 33 mm
Timor 31 mm
Unitas 33 mm

Also, I get the impression that, while the WWWs were designed as military watches from the ground up, the ATPs were much more a case of 'making do' with available parts and available watches. I get the feeling that in some (many?) cases civilian watches were simply conscripted as ATPs. There seem to be more exceptions to the specs: black dials, spring bars, center secs, etc. While most ATPs are marked with a broad arrow, 'ATP', and a serial number, some don't have a serial number.

I don't really know about rarity, since it's much harder to pin down which Swiss companies actually made ATPs. Taylerson lists eighteen: Buren, Cortebert, Cyma, Ebel, Enicar, Eterna, FHF, Grana, Lemania, Limi, Moeris, Montillier, Omega, Reconvillier, Record, Rotary, Timor, and Unitas. But it's unclear whether ATPs from all of these companies do really exist. (Remember, Taylerson also lists Kurth and Thommen WWWs. At last count no one on MWR had seen either one of these.) In Imai, there are pictures of Eberhard, Mido, and Rodana ATPs. And of course, there has been an IWC ATP offered on eBay. (Our consensus here was that it was suspect.) Throw into the mix, the 'conscripted' ATPs I mentioned above and it's really hard to draw up a definitve list. (Of course, to add to the confusion, we see many suspiciously marked 'ATPs' offered for sale.)

Since ATPs are unpopularly small and are often in rather poor condition, they aren't very expensive. Disregarding the questionable IWC, I guess Ebel would stand as the 'most valued' because of its unusual case. Of those in my collection, I too like the Unitas best.

Marvin

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 3:11 PM
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Thanks for the lesson...(more)

Hi Marvin,

Thanks a bunch for that lesson. Before this I would have never bothered giving a second look to
ATPs (unless I liked the 'look').

I will save your posting as a very good reference and
refer to it when I come across an ATP.

(Also I will look into fixing up my broken links to
your WWW images which have now moved to where you
mention in a post below.)

Regardless of the above, I think you have a lot of knowledge of military watches and a very nice collection. You should consider
getting a website where you not only display your
images, but also provide information such as that
you have mentioned in your post. Just a suggestion.

Regards.

-Maurice.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 4:23 PM
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you are rite on about the civilian provenance, since ATPs,

by hurley

properly expanded to "army trade pattern," were exactly that, trade pattern watches that were bought by the military for issue pending fulfillment of contract orders. the same deal with the pocket GSTPs (general service trade pattern) before them. i am aware that "temporary pattern" is the preferred expansion for some, and this has some appeal. however, the lists, while occasionally referring to "temporary" issues, the phrase "trade pattern" recurrs in both the TAP and GSTP context with great frequency. either way, marvin is exactly rite about the origins of ATP watches. perhaps this point speaks to MF's recent query about the possible dual life of the iwc mark ix.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 6:50 AM
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Marvin, without seeing the watch "hands on"...more

by Steven james

it appears this may be one of those weird ones that the movement is in a "module" that pressure fits into the bezel from below (Omega Cosmic 2000's had this set-up as well). If this is the fitting mechanism, they open by stablizing the bezel and lugs, then "forcing" the movement out from above. If you inspect the bezel closely from above, you should be able to see a hairline if this is the fitting mode.

To open I use: a small bench viseopened just to the dimension of the madule plus 1mm or so; set a fully opened screw-down cystal press (with a die that fits just on the top edge of the crystal/plexi) on the vise jaw guides with the die above the vise jaws; position the watch on top of the vise, then screw down the crystal press thus forcing-out the movement module. The module likely will have a two piece stem which can be removed easily; then remove the crystal/plexi (which should have a gasket between it and the module) and then lift out the movement.

I have heard others have been able to force the module without all this special gear and just forced it out by hand. But I have never found one that loose as most have an O-ring between the bezel wall and the module wall! Good luck.

Hope this was of some help (if only by eliminating a possibility).

Happy New Year and Cheers,

Steven

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 4:59 PM
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RE:Ebel ATP case

by Alex.R.

I have an Ebel with the pop out case and dismantling it is fairly easy.Hold the case in two hands with the lugs resting on your index fingers with your thumbs together gently push down on the crystal and the pod should push out from the outer case.The crystal can be eased off with a razor blade if needed,mine is quite loose and just pulls off.The winder has a two part stem and needs a gentle tug.The movement can now be removed.
Alex.R.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 5:26 PM
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I'm close . . . (more)

Hi Alex,

Following your directions, everything works fine up to the "gentle tug" on the winder. Even when I tug fairly hard, though, nothing happens and I'm afraid to just pull away.

Just to be sure, is it just a straight pull out on the crown? No twists? No angles?

Thanks for your help.

Regards,

Marvin

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 6:17 PM
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RE:Ebel Winder

Mine just pulls away no twisting or other manipulation required.If you are tugging at the winder and it is not coming away it may require an expert to free it.
Anything else I can help with regarding the Ebel please feel free to mail me.
Alex

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 2:30 AM
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Thanks, Alex, all is well . . . (more)

It took much more than a gentle tug, but it came out all right. And I didn't even break anything!

Thanks again.

Marvin

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 3:49 AM
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RE:Thank's,Alex, all is well.

Glad I could be of some help.Maybe my explanation of a gentle tug was not quite enough,it is hard to explain the amount of force required to remove something from another persons watch.Glad you did not break anything,I would have felt awful.
Alex.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 5:58 AM
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Great collection, and nice slide show setup, thanks. nt

by Alan N.

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:54 PM
from IP address 66.32.118.137

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Happy New Year to All !!!! <nt>

/

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 9:55 PM
from IP address 12.88.80.166

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Speaking of BP 50 Fathom Polish navy issue...

by Bill

Here's one on eBay.de that doesn't seem to be identified as such, but is: note the "MW" on caseback.

http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1682627639

Aparently a batch of these surfaced, NOS, from Polish navy stores last year. No idea how many, but I've seen, maybe, six. James Dowling once said that buying a BP 50 Fathoms was like marrying Elizabeth Taylor, but I've forgotten exactly what he meant by it!

This would be a nice piece to have. Like the MN Tudor Sub, this is one of the issue-marked dive watches by a big-name Swiss maker. A complete collection of these would be a beautiful thing: small, intensely focused. And very expensive, as you'd have to either start or finish with the MoD Sub. Let's see: MoD Sub, Mod SM 300, MN Tudor Sub, Israeli Eterna...? (For present purposes I'm ruling out CWC, Precista... What's the complete list of known, issue-marked, higher-end Swiss dive watches?

No intention to belittle the great Benrus Types I and II, to which I am a recent and ardent convert, but they are different -- because, now that I think of it, they are truly mil-spec, whereas all the watches I'm considering here are modifications (however minor) of civilian retail product. Curiously, as I've noted before, the CWC and Precista dives are also mil-spec, but the spec, basically, is the Omega SM 300!

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 8:18 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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don't forget the Auricoste professional! n/t

/

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 8:03 AM
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Any others? nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 10:34 AM
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Tornek-Rayville USN...more

by Jon

Actually another version of the BP, but a USN contract watch with a fully marked case back. A very hard to find mil dive watch. I only know of one in MWR.
Jon

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 12:54 PM
from IP address 203.96.111.200

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And....The Italian issue Luminor Panerai made by Rolex...nt

by Jon

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 12:57 PM
from IP address 203.96.111.200

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IWC Ocean Bund 2000 (nt)

.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 1:46 PM
from IP address 12.236.156.51

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Hamilton Khaki, like date version of Hamilton 6B or GS

by Bill

Never saw one with this dial before:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1684372778

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 5:18 PM
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Nice! If only they omitted "Khaki" from the dial (more)

by Mike (E)

Speekowich, I know that Waltham used a "Khaki" tradename in the WW1 era, but can Hamilton/SMH claim it as such? I've always liked these watches, but avoid them 'cuz of the trademarky "Khaki" on the dial....

mike

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 8:11 PM
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Me too, though this one's interesting in that (more)

by Bill

it emulates a British rather than American watch.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 9:55 PM
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a new Khaki version on the market ( limited ed. officer's watch)

I just bought a brand new limited ed. Khaki just placed on the market with the launch of the Pearl Harbor movie. My version is a numbered 34 out of 3333(side of case imprinting). A very collectable Mil. retro styled watch. I think I might keep this one!
On the dial it has the same design as the very popular Hamilton Military WWII pocket watch. It is a Khaki with the words limited ed Mechanical. The case is 38mm with out the crown, Parkerized, and on a brown leather single piece strap.
Look for it if you like these type of watches!

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 6:07 AM
from IP address 152.163.201.61

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Dial style

I have seen a couple different Hamilton Military
Pocket watches( types that were placed in the Round grey case watch holder/w slide back window dispay.
The Khaki dial is similar to the Hamiliton Pocket watch dial that looks like this
- Black dial
- min.(60min) numerals on the outer
most part of dial
- hour numerals (1-12)in the center ring and
13-24 in the very center
- date window at 3:00
- dial lettered with the word
Hamiliton

Khaki
Mechanical
Limited Edition

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 12:55 PM
from IP address 64.12.103.32

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Ed: How does your Hamilton dial compare? (nt)

by Elias

/// //

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 10:49 AM
from IP address 24.206.13.33

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Mil blancpain 50 Fathoms

by T.A

Theres one for sale on timezone.com's sales corner(12/31/01 1603 hrs). Mil markings on back (he says, no photos). The seller is very proud of it as since he is asking $2,600.00. Are these that rare? I didn't know these were issued. Looks like it is in nice shape.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 4:18 PM
from IP address 67.203.221.204

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The only issued BP 50F I've seen has Polish navy markings. (more)

by Bill

But any vintage BP 50F commands a high price. To be perfectly honest, I've never been sure why. BP was not a top brand, at that point, and probably these retailed for less than their equivalent in an Omega (and certainly for less than a Rolex). Anyway, they are top dollar today, as far as non-Rolex Swiss dives of the period go.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 5:09 PM
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I agree, BP certainly wasn't

that special during these years. In fact they were a pretty typical watch. Those 50F were just a nicely cased AS1361 or AS1700 with a cool bezel. Omega/Rolex made a much better watch. My thinking is that a couple of comments in books and some modern marketing has moved these watches up to their present position.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 10:18 AM
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Well, if you look at them as mid-market dive watches (more)

by Bill

from the heyday of scuba-inspired styling (and the dive watch was more about style than diving, for most wearers) they are some of the best-looking examples. Clean, classic for their type. Bucherer, for instance, made better-quality dive watches, but none of them are much sought after today.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 10:42 AM
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This particular Blancpain 50 Fathoms is a reject from ......

by CJ

.........a Sydney watch dealer that could have been had for about AUD$3000.

Best wishes for the New Year!

Nothing wrong with it !! Love it or leave it!

Bill; Contact when you've got time >;-)

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 11:25 AM
from IP address 205.188.199.173

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I think I tried it on....more

Was it at Sydney Vintage Watches on Pitt St? Fred's place? I took a close look at it, liked it, but thought it a bit expensive for what it is.
I ended up with one of the Enicar Polish military watches. My NZ watchmaker advised that it was made up from parts. The same German dealer seemed to feature these BPs and I wonder if it may be the same story.
Rgds
Jon

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 1:06 PM
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You're on the ball Jon ...That's the one that had a complete make over.

by CJ

Hi Jon,
You're a man on the spot and I'm glad you didn't chance
this one ......

Regards

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 2:57 PM
from IP address 152.163.207.206

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Happy new year! (more)

by Chris R

Dear fellow MWRines,

I wish you a happy new. There are only 10 minutes to go, then we in Germany will welcome a new year and a new currency - the Euro.

Health, wealth and a peaceful 2002 to all of you!

Christian

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 2:48 PM
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Thank You Chris (more)

It was thoughtful of you to take the time to post on mWR. Best regards to you and your family for a happy and healthy New Year as well. I look forward to reading your posts in the year ahead.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 3:00 PM
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Happy New Year and good luck with the Euro! :-D nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 5:10 PM
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Leonidas German WW2 chronograph, question for SideB

by Mike

Simon, would it be safe to say that the case for this watch is silver? If so, would it be "solid" silver or plated? Thanks.
Mike

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 1:22 PM
from IP address 64.228.192.147

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Solid silver. (nt)

by SideB

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 3:30 AM
from IP address 64.12.102.26

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Pin stuck

by Mike

Simon, I activated the timer and the pin refuses to go back into it's proper setting. Does this sound as though a return spring might be malfunctioning?

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:03 AM
from IP address 64.228.196.189

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Lectro GMT Watch on eBay

Well, what about this one -

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1684508691

Granted the description isn't so great, and who knows how good the watch really looks. But I thought the GMT bezel was cool...

Is this a "known" watch and/or a "known" dealer? Or - God forbid - is he one of Foggy's "buddies" (ala Mr BS)?

Thanks...

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 1:19 PM
from IP address 12.64.24.71

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Can't comment on the dealer (more)

by Foggy

But I have no reason to class him/her with my other "friend". However, I would be prepared to bet fairly substantial sums of money that the watch aint up to much, quality wise. Typical of the many dive wannabes of the 70's. Plated case, poor movement etc. But hey, for 10 bucks, why not !!

Cheers

Foggy

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 1:40 PM
from IP address 213.122.199.17

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Do you remember Mr Bullsh*t ??? (more)

by Foggy

Hi all

Look how much this Services went for, and the great feedback left. Why ?? How do people fall for this sort of crap ? I'm stunned !!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1652712940

Cheers

Foggy

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 12:47 PM
from IP address 213.122.204.114

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old story

by bob w.

hello to all,

it is the old story. bought the item before the book and doing some research.

happy new year,
bob w.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 1:16 PM
from IP address 152.163.204.199

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The Only Substitute for Money...

is knowledge and sometimes it's expensive to learn.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 2:42 PM
from IP address 64.171.5.204

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Received #96 Marathon SAR/CCG! ....More

by rgs

I just received my Marathon SAR/CCG #96 and it is everything I thought it to be � very nicely finished! I really like the thick sapphire crystal and easy to read dial. It glows very well in the dark. My bezel also aligns perfectly.

I am glad that it is not as �BIG� as I feared it might be. It is about the same size as my Seiko automatic diver and also a submariner when viewed from above � only thicker and more solid when viewed from the side. I was afraid that it would be too WIDE and feel like I had a pancake on my wrist (not so!). I once tried on a full size Omega Seamaster and felt this about the watch.

I think that what is happening is that the impressive construction is mis-interpreted as massive size IMHO.

I replaced the nylon band with a thick rubber dive strap from an old watch I had and it looks great. I am very interested in what the bracelet will be like when it is available.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 12:09 PM
from IP address 152.163.204.76

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I'm jealous, your bezel lines up, mine doesn't!!! NT

.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 8:18 PM
from IP address 148.78.249.10

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"Special SPY watch" - hmmm (more)

by Foggy

Hi all

This one amused me

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1684043975

Cheers

Foggy

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 11:18 AM
from IP address 213.122.204.114

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Seen this one b4, guess didn't sell 1st time.... -nt

by royalh

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 4:01 PM
from IP address 216.101.47.184

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How can it be used as a "timming" device if doesn't have a solenoid? nt

by Mike (E)

nt

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 8:17 PM
from IP address 66.123.206.87

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Follow on from my posting of Bonklip Patent (more)

by Foggy

Hi all

Today I also located a copy of the original drawings that went with the patent application. If anyone is interested in seeing them, I'll do a scan. If not, I won't bother

Best to all in 2002.

Cheers

Foggy

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 11:00 AM
from IP address 213.122.204.114

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I'd be interested /nt

by Ian Parkin

--

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 11:39 AM
from IP address 162.119.64.100

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Hi Foggy, would be interesting to see. Cheers Alan.

by alangb

ooo iii ooo iii ooow!

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 11:40 AM
from IP address 194.6.2.152

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Consider it done, gents (more)

by Foggy

Here's the extracts I could find. Shame it's not all of it, but still nice detail.

Cheers

Foggy

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 11:46 AM
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Thanks, Ian. Nice scans! (nt)

by Chris R

.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 2:07 PM
from IP address 212.144.174.103

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Thanks Foggy, nice find. :nt:

by alangb

.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 3:43 PM
from IP address 194.6.2.152

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Thanks foggy, after all the abuse they take........>

by Drew

I appreciate seeing a diagramme of the ladder construction. Detailed as this patent example is, it just comfirms my "engineering perspective" of the original idea.

I still have at least 6 or so of these and usually find myself wearing one on a 50 34mm case Mido superautomatic with white dial and rhodium plated hands.

The best uses of these kritters, besides the ability to take full on pot-shots from our well known buddies

... is the fact that they are infinately adjustable immediately upon putting it on, and that they are very light weight. As well as the plus of being military issue at one time.

However I only have bracelets that are unsigned so far. One of these days I'll find a "Bonklip" marked one to use.

-Drew, one of the original praisemasters

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 4:16 PM
from IP address 198.81.16.151

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Drew - next signed one I find is yours (more)

by Foggy

I'm bound to turn another one up at a boot sale some time (famous last words ??). If and when I do, I'll give you a shout for your address.

Cheers

Foggy

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 4:44 PM
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Thanks Foggy!...I'd appreciate that......>

The results of your boot sales have been very fun to see here. The SF bay area has all but dried up in flea market vintage watches of any worth (to me) and I know it is due to Ebay being so hip to use as it's headquartered right here in Silicon Valley, and it seems everybody that has lived here for at least a few years takes that advantage.

What is interesting is the diversity of cultures here in the sellers that still go to sell at the local "boot sale" - fleamarkets, as most are Russian, Mexican and Vietnamese transplants, new age American sellers and they do a very good business with like families. It is fun to go trade with them, but the old watch market has basically dried up.

Happy New Year -Drew

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 8:19 AM
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Thanks foggy, after all the abuse they take........>

by Drew

I appreciate seeing a diagramme of the ladder construction. Detailed as this patent example is, it just comfirms my "engineering perspective" of the original idea.

I still have at least 6 or so of these and usually find myself wearing one on a 1950s very sturdy 34mm cased Mido superautomatic with white dial and rhodium plated hands.

The best uses of these kritters, besides the ability to take full on pot-shots from our well known buddies

... is the fact that they are infinately adjustable immediately upon putting it on, and that they are very light weight. As well as the plus of being military issue at one time.

However I only have bracelets that are unsigned so far. One of these days I'll find a "Bonklip" marked one to use.

-Drew, one of the original praisemasters

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 4:17 PM
from IP address 198.81.16.151

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Please explain this to me as I'm not that fast...>>>

by ALE

you all collect military watches. You know 'em surely better than I know. You all also know that the BUND strap was meant only for flight chronographs in Germany and in other version for the east block countries. It's a flight band though. So, why are you all fitting your MARATHON CCG DIVE watch on a bund strap when the best fit and look I had so far is on a DIVE bands like the waterborne or on the Ruhla and Bund DIVE watches. Long rubber straps. Isn't the MARATHON meant to go underwater ? So would you use leather or rubber ?
Thanks for explaining that to me. My humble opinion ? The bund strap is absolutely NO GOOD on that watch. But hey, it's just me.
Cheers and happy 2002 to all the MWRines

Alex

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 9:18 AM
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My guess: the Bund strap was designed to stabilize a very thick, heavy (more)

by Bill

watch on the wrist -- the Heuer Bund chrono. That's what I think, anyway: that the three-piece design keeps a very heavy watch from shifting around under its own weight. (Somehow I've never believed the theory about burn-protection in nuclear strikes. Versions of this design seem to have been around in Germany sinces the 1940s.)

The SAR is a very thick, heavy watch. I think people find it comfortable on the Bund for that reason, though, of course, it couldn't be used for diving.

I had a RAAF Lemania that was as thick, almost as heavy, and larger. The Bund was the only solution. The Waterborne seems like the optimal dive strap for the SAR, though I haven't tried it.

BTW, the Bund/SAR combo turns out not to work for me because the bar-to-bar length changes the overall length of the straps, and leaves the holes "off", on me; either too tight or too loose. With my Vostok, the holes are exactly right.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 9:37 AM
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Some more guesses...

by Ned

I can think of a few other reasons why the Bund Strap is designed the way it is, beside the support idea.

*burn protection*- leather between watch and skin reduces burn problems in case of cockpit fire. Leather is much more resistant to fire than nylon or fabric, and is a poorer heat conductor than metal.

legibility - the black rim of the strap nicely frames the watch face and may improve legibility and help pilots read the time more quickly.

reliable location - most watch straps allow the watch to move around on the wrist - hampering your ability to quickly locate and read the dial. The Bund strap centers the watch on your wrist (tabs on the back peice wrap nicely over edges of wrist) and should help keep the watch where you want it.

elevation - having the watch up a bit from the wrist helps prevent the cuff of your flight suit (or flight gloves) from sliding over the top of the watch and obscuring the face. This is important if your hands are busy doing other things - like flying a plane - and you can't pull back the cuff to see the watch dial.

I think this is a well-conceived design for flying, and many of its basic benefits would apply to other military applications.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 10:09 AM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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maybe it's just me, but...

...I have tried wearing several dfferent watches on a BUND 3-piece strap, but always end up thinking that the only watches that seem to "belong" on this unusual strap are the big German military chronographs (Tutima, Porsche Design, Sinn, Arctos, etc.). These watches tend to be rather large, black faced, and often use orange chronograph hands, which look striking against the black backround that the BUND strap provides.

I even tried putting a CWC Pilot's chronograph on a BUND and it just didn't look right, even though it's a pretty big pilot's chronograph as well.

Just my 2 cents...

Happy New Year to everyone!
-m

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 11:10 AM
from IP address 64.84.58.94

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This style of strap, ....more....

by alangb

originates from the first worldwar period when watchbacksof nickle, brass and copper were not uncommon. Thesemetals in contact with theskin caused allergic rashes and sometimes poisoned sores This type of strap prevented contact with the skin and associated problems. Happy, healthy, new year to all MWRines. Alan.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 11:31 AM
from IP address 194.6.2.152

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I do agree completely with you. Happy New Year (nt)

by ALE

.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 5:38 AM
from IP address 62.10.54.174

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Alex, I came to the same conclusion and >>>

by Bob A (SD)

opted for the Morellato "Omega style" rubber strap instead. I made mention of this in a post here several days ago. Also asked you where rubber BUND straps could be found as I've never heard of them before.

Bob A. (SD)

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 11:29 AM
from IP address 65.7.152.107

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Ops sorry Bob, did not see your post asking for the straps... >>>

by ALE

I have a Bund divers watch. That's where I got the strap from. I'll look if I can find you one and get it for you. NO problem !
All the best for the New Year

Alex

P.S. The morellato is just fine and nice looking on the watch.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 5:34 AM
from IP address 62.10.54.174

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I'm using a Bond Nato, and the holes ...

... line up perfectly, the watch is stable and just the right about of snugness. Looks good too with the stripes.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 1:06 PM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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Notwork54, I guess we have our answer (more)

by Bob

Hi Folks,

Well, after a day at the polls, the answer is clear:

Should we quit using Network54?

Yes, let's switch now! 65.42 % (70)

No, let's stay with Network54 until it dies. 17.76% (19)

Don't care one way or another. 16.82 % (18)

Total votes: 107

Guess, I start the changeover sometime after the new year.

Best Regards,

Bob

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 7:42 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.87

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amuse me....

by Pete K.

I'm trying to decide if a Bund strap looks good on a SS Marathon Navigator. Currently, I don't have a strap but know where to get a good one (thans Jurgen).

Could someone with a Bund and Navigator but them together and post a pic? I'm dying to see the combination.

Thanks in advance,

Pete K.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 4:18 AM
from IP address 68.32.10.99

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Give me a couple of minutes.NT

by Jack

/

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 6:37 AM
from IP address 152.163.207.189

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Navigator on Bund

This a Randy Nilsen Bund style. 20mm, black. Very high quality strap.

Visit www.IndustrialWatchWorks.com

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 6:54 AM
from IP address 152.163.207.189

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Thanks, Jack..

by Pete K.

I was wondering if the watch wasn't big enough for the strap, but it looks great. I'll definitely try and pick one up soon!

Pete K., Columbia, MD

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 8:55 AM
from IP address 68.32.10.99

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The watch is the perfect diameter for the strap. The low >>

by Jack

profile of the watch also works well with the thickness of the Bund style strap. It's not too "high" on the wrist.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 9:01 AM
from IP address 205.188.192.39

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Jack you Dog! LOL (more)

Thanks for a great post. I've recently ordered a Navigator as my Christmas gift and here's my dilemna. The Industrial Watchworks "signature" red second hand looks terrific! I've never tried a Bund strap but have been thinking about it and you've convinced me I need to add one (or two) to my band inventory. Without biting into my Seiko makeover, what would it take to upgrrade my Navigator. Thanks in advance for your help. As always, best regards.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 9:12 AM
from IP address 66.44.113.97

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Imagestation question....

by SideB

....I have been trying to browse Marvin's superlative collection of wwws but the images take so long to load I just gave up and looked at a couple of highlights. It isn't just viewing the image in the first instance that takes time, it takes ages to return to the original album.
I'm curious to know whether anyone else has this problem or whether it's just a pecularity of my browser.
Simon

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 3:05 AM
from IP address 205.188.193.37

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Try this . . . (more)

Hi Simon,

I'm a rank amateur at ImageStation. I joined and set up the album in about 15 minutes earlier today. The Index view (the one in the link I gave) does seem to take an age to load.

Try this: http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292155323

It shows just one image but there is a drop down menu that should take directly to any scan. The names get truncated, but all the watch scans are in Dial, Back, and Movement order, so any scan should be easy to find.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Marvin

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 3:36 AM
from IP address 203.165.45.41

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Does any military use mechanical watches anymore? chronographs?

Not counting the new Marathon for the Canadian MOD, do any militaries use mechanical watches?

It seems to me:
A) Mechanical watches are too expensive.
B) Too expensive to maintain.
C) Not as accurate as quartz/digital

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the G-shock seems to be pretty much the standard now.

What watch replaced the French AirForce (Dodane, Airain, Breguet, Vixa, Auricoste) Type 20/21?

What type of the chronograph replaced the British RAF/Royal Navy (CWC, Hamilton, etc) chrono? A quartz CWC?

Any military actually use a mechanical watch?

Comex still issues Rolex SeaDwellers, so I would think mechanical watches are preferable?

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 2:39 AM
from IP address 24.46.97.121

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I dont know >>

any Militaries using mechanicals.
The RAF/RN use a Seiko quartz chrono. CWC were beaten on price although one can buy unissued CWC quartz chronos which I prefer to the Seiko.
CWC still supply the Army, Navy and RAF with quartz watches.
Regards and Happy New Year.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 10:32 AM
from IP address 195.92.194.19

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I believe there are a few left....

Aloha,

J�rgen may be able to confirm this, but I believe German air force pilots are still issued Tutima chronographs. Also, some special operations British units still issue Rolex diving watches, I recall.

It's been discussed here a number of times, but mechanicals do have a few advantages on quartz watches:

No batteries to fail.

Operate at a wider range of environmental conditions, particularly extreme cold weather. Digitals in particular don't do very well in the cold -- those liquid-crystal displays have problems.

My $.02,

andy

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 11:31 AM
from IP address 205.173.95.41

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Here's a simple yet discrete looking Vostok...

Seller describes it as "Vostok 18 Jewels, beautiful mechanical CCCP factory, blue dial, central second, date display, ageconditioned customs tracks, watch runs, evtl cleaning necessity dispatch and packing costs DM 9" according to Altavista. I particularly like the red colored date. Too bad he's only shipping within Europe.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1682692087

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 2:32 AM
from IP address 211.61.251.247

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One of the intriguing things about Vostok (more)

by Bill

is that these apparent "one-offs" turn up every so often. Perhaps they were test-runs of new models, prior to mass production? Or maybe they're NOS from a period just prior to the more familiar military styles becoming the factory's big commercial hit?

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 11:07 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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I bought a Bostok

one of the modern ones with a black sub on the dial.
It has a pretty solid looking 29j? automatic movement.
and aside from a cheezy case, is a pretty nice watch.
$40 new in the box. I see the cool looking older ones that appear to be unique, but I'm always afraid of a nice surprise about what's inside. I took the auto home, opened it up and checked it out before buying
two. No surprises.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 2:48 PM
from IP address 64.171.5.204

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SAR 2000-issue questions

I just have some questions regarding the SAR 2000 (like the one in Bob's gallery) and previous issues. Does anyone know how many of these style watches were issued and how many of them made it for surplus? I am just wondering how rare these were compared to the current issue SAR. And for how many years were these models produced?

I got the 2000-issue SAR not too long before the SAR 2001-issue came out, and really like the 2000 model. Comparing the two SARs side by side, there is nothing alike in their looks at all. The 2001 is one behemoth machine compared to the much slicker-looking 2000 SAR.

Anyways, thanks in advance for the help!

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 11:58 PM
from IP address 24.69.255.204

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CCG 2000 vs SAR 2001 >>

by Bob A (SD)

Mike,

Aside from manufacturer and ETA movement, I agree they are quite different. We each have individual tastes and I prefer the newer SAR to the CCG, whereas you've stated a preference for the CCG.

But I don't think the label "behemoth" is really fitting. Sure the bezel and case are both thick although the total height is but 13.85mm. When compared to other divers (a Seiko SKX011J and Zeno 485GMT) as shown in this picture, it doesn't dominate at all. By the way the Zeno is 17mm thick courtesy of its domed acrylic crystal.

Bob A. (SD)

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 1:21 AM
from IP address 65.7.152.107

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CCG 2000 vs SAR 2001 >>

Hello Bob,

Thanks for your reply.

It's just that my wrists aren't all that big and the new SAR looks a bit clumsy on me. Nonetheless, the SAR 2001 is one great watch but I'd prefer wearing the 2000 myself. The 2001 is quite a gargantuan hulk compared to the slim 2000 -- a more frail-looking watch when put side by side with an SAR 2001.

Also -- would the older CCGs be known as the SAR as well, being supposedly issued to SAR techs?

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 9:17 AM
from IP address 24.69.255.204

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watch size

MIKE THE SIZE OF THE WATCH SEEMS TO SHRINK AFTER YOU GET A STEEL BRACELET ON IT WE SHOULD HAVE SOME LATER IN JAN....THE WATCH LOOKS HUGE WITH THE NYLON BAND AND THE BANDS THAT WE ARE GETTING ARE MADE BY MARATHON....

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 10:52 AM
from IP address 64.34.190.81

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WWW Archive on ImageStation . . . (more)

Since Photopoint seems to have given up the ghost, I've set up a copy of my WWW picture archive at:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4292155323&show_all=1&start=1

Enjoy!

Marvin

PS Martin, you might want to change the link in the MWR Archives.

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 7:42 PM
from IP address 203.165.45.41

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Thanks..it's great to see them all again..nt..

by Drew

q

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 8:28 PM
from IP address 198.81.16.33

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THE definitive collection. Thanks! nt

by SideB

S

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 3:00 AM
from IP address 205.188.193.37

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THANK YOU Marvin (more)

Since I kept your Photopoint album in my favorites and used your "collective" shot as wallpaper, I'm delighted to replace it with this one. Thank you so much for taking the time to make this valuable reference an accesible part of the forum. It's a remarkable body of work. As always, best regards.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 5:14 AM
from IP address 66.44.47.7

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By the way, yours and Hyunsuk's galleries are on the CD! (nt)

by Bob

nt

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 7:57 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.87

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Longines broad arrow and USN? can someone explain this to me?...

I've always understood that the broad arrow sign to be British and USN stands for US Navy. But this Longines watch has a broad arrow on the dial and the back is inscribed USN Bu Ships. Below is the link to the scan and the description from that web site:

LONGINES MILITARY WRISTWATCH. THE BLACK MILITARY DIAL IS REDONE TO ITS ORIGINAL STATUS, SIGNED LONGINES WITH A MILITARY ARROW. THE MOVEMENT IN GOOD CONDITION AND WORKING, SIGNED LONGINES 16 JEWELS, 6834607 23M. THE SCREW BACK STAINLESS STEEL CASE IS IN VERY NICE CONDITION, SIGNED LONGINES, THE OUTSIDE IS SIGNED, U S N, BU SHIPS, 22857 929.33 mm

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 3:11 PM
from IP address 205.143.252.151

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Perhaps the broadarrow was a 'redial enhancement'...nt

nt

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 6:12 PM
from IP address 203.96.111.200

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This watch or one like it has turned up on Ebay a number of times and (more)

by Bill

been discussed here. A clueless redial. The Longines BU SHIPS is otherwise a very nice issue watch.

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 9:33 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Up for auction now. Description mentions a redial

by Ian Parkin

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1684142291

WE DO NOT SELL TO INDONESIA AT ALL..................... LONGINES MILITARY WRISTWATCH. THE BLACK MILITARY DIAL IS REDONE TO ITS ORIGINAL STATUS, SIGNED LONGINES WITH A MILITARY ARROW. THE MOVEMENT IN GOOD CONDITION AND WORKING, SIGNED LONGINES 16 JEWELS, 6834607 23M. THE SCREW BACK STAINLESS STEEL CASE IS IN VERY NICE CONDITION, SIGNED LONGINES, THE OUTSIDE IS SIGNED, U S N, BU SHIPS, 22857 929. 33 mm 1940'S

IAP

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 8:47 AM
from IP address 12.232.106.172

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Bob, one more SAR question for you (more)

Hi Bob:

Why was mm/ft rating on the SAR printed in red?

Thanks,

Richard

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 2:43 PM
from IP address 12.88.81.206

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Just guessing, but red elements on a black dial (more)

by Bill

are thought to "drop out" visually when the wearer needs a very quick read. I've seen this discussed re the EZM design: a matter of visual clarity under stress. You probably don't need to see the dive rating with the same urgency, in other words.

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 9:31 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Interesting. Thanks, Bill. <nt>

by Richard

?

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 5:06 AM
from IP address 12.88.83.253

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Yes... that and aesthetics were the primary reason... (nt)

by Bob

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 7:44 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.87

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Anyone heard of a Swiss Watch company named "biland"

Hi Everyone,

Has anyone heard of a Swiss Watch comapny named "biland". A friend has a pocketwatch with this name faintly marked on the dial and it has a Unitas movement. Funny that "biland" starts with a lower case "b". This pocketwatch dates from the Second World War.

All the best for 2002.

Chris B.

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 2:01 PM
from IP address 64.230.48.246

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Do you think (more)

by Foggy

the "ben" part has rubbed off the end of the name ?? Sorry, I couldn't resist

Cheers

Foggy

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 7:38 PM
from IP address 213.122.202.26

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That's pretty funny Foggy!

That's pretty funny Foggy! Got a good chuckle to start my day along with my first coffee. I love plays on words and watch makers names are great for this. I know the great reputation of Tissot but why does their name have to be "Toss it" backwards! All the best for 2002.

Cheers

Chris B.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 7:00 AM
from IP address 64.230.90.196

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Marathon Navigator

by Bill S

I just got my Marathon Navigator from Bob, to say the least I'm thrilled with it,but I would like to change the band to something else.As a newbie to military watch collecting could you guys offer suggestions as to your favorites? Scans would be appreciated.Many thanks.Bill S

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 12:38 PM
from IP address 64.12.105.171

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Works great with a Waterbourne Strap.. nt

by Ned

nt

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 1:51 PM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Nav on OD NATO style>>

Hi Bill,
I've had the Nav on both olive and grey NATO style straps. Both look great.

Visit www.IndustrialWatchWorks.com

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 1:52 PM
from IP address 152.163.197.209

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Bund...

by Pete K.

Can someone show me what a Navigator looks like on a Bund?

Thanks in advance,

Pete.

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 3:07 PM
from IP address 68.32.10.99

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Newbie Ques?

Ok I'm not only a newbie to this forum but to mechanical watches. I have been lurking here a while .. followed a link from Knifeforums.com ... and just recently purchased and received from Country.com the Marathon SAR. It is just a wonderful thing to own. I love tools and this thing looks and feels like a fine one. I understand that much of the input and inspiration for the watch originated here so I have a few questions.

A few months ago I bought a Fortis Pilot. It is purported to have an antishock device. Does the new Marathon incorporate something like this? Does it need to? What kind of drop should it be able to withstand? Like I'm ever going to let this drop !!!

Can I use Rolex 2.0 mm spring bars?

Mine is running about 10 secs fast every 24hrs but I have only been wearing it for about 4 days 12 hrs a day. My Fortis would gain 5 at night and lose 4 during the day How long should I wait before deciding it should be regulated? Who online would you recommend?

Thanks
Alex

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 12:17 PM
from IP address 66.108.74.249

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I believe the Anti-shock device ...

..in question is merely a patented type of spring for holding the jeweled caps in within the movement. Someone other than I will know more in greater detail.

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 1:32 PM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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Some advices for you.......>

Now days, most if not all watches in large cases use a white colored plastic frame that isolates and centers the movement inside the case. Shocks associated with dropping them onto forgiving surfaces should be absorbed by this non-rigid soft cradle action.

The small diameter 2824 ETA movement itself is very light in weight. The screwdown crown when snugged, will in effect secure the movement by its stem. The stem itself ends up being the weakest point of the movement. The 2824 movement has a shock resistant balance pivot as Martin said, so there is typically no harm here from droppage or vibrations while worn as most harsh vibrations will get absorbed by (through) our arm before transmission to the watch case.

Dropping any watch can have neg. effects, as they can break pivots, bind up their hairsprings, and even chip pallet jewels - when they land on the side - as in a direct hit, case perpendicular to the hard surface. example: on rock hard cement like surfaces from more than a couple feet.

I lost my scan collections due to photo-"pain" -point.com crashing, sorry I can't show you a close up.

Overall they are a very tough design and you should have no worrys about shock damage, within absolute reason of course.

The movements are factory assembled completely, no "hands on" assembly at all. The regulator adjusting screw is set at a neutral center position, and the balance hairsprings are machine wound and determined to usually run slightly fast, so your 10 seconds plus a day timing so far seems rather typical to me, if not on the more accurate side of the specs than most in production watches after delivery.

Sometimes movement springs will change or become "set" it seems, but most of the ETA 2824 I have played with, run on the fast side for life until adjusted. Waiting is probably better at this point, but I cant say for sure this predetermined factory rate will change to the better.

The regulator screw is stiff to move and you will possibly notice that excessive (too much) pressure while pressing the screwdriver blade in the slot can flex the balance cock and stop the balance (starts up ok after releasing)... just a hint when moving the regulator screw for timing adjustments.

Ther are folks here and probably locally for you, who can recommend someone to remove the caseback and turn that screw for you.

You can replace the spring bars with the Rolex 20s if you think you need to.

Nice to hear happy stories (I still can't afford one yet)

-Drew

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 2:41 PM
from IP address 198.81.23.71

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Most watches made today have shock resistance

This is in the form of spring mounted cup shaped balance jewels. These devices (Incabloc, Kif-Flector etc.)are designed to reduce breakage of the balance staff pivots. The balance being the heaviest moving part of the watch set on needle sharp fragile pivots.
Before these devices became standard, almost any hard jolt followed by an abrupt stop, snapped one or both of these pivots or cracked their jewels. This has kept watchmakers busy for decades. The repair of a broken staff is time consuming and requires tools and training. The shockproofing of the watch greatly reduced the breakage of staffs. Beyond that, the watches are about the same. They hate, dirt, water and rough treatment. The best protection is a good case and a reasonable amount of care by the user. They are miniature machines powered by a spring. Treat them like the precision machines they are and you'll be fine.

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 4:04 PM
from IP address 66.120.162.250

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THANKS !!

Hey guys thank you very much for all the info. Very kind. Hope you can tolerate more ignorant questions in the future. My last mechanical was when I was a kid. I went through my military experience in the early 90's with a Yellow Casio G shock. Scrathed to heck but still working when I gave it away.

Drew I really couldnt afford it either. I basically took a loan from the bank account (see Wife) I will be letting the Fortis go on ebay along with a custom knife or two.

So Im glad that I am so in love with this watch. It really is all that and more.
Thanks again everyone
Alex

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 3:31 AM
from IP address 66.108.74.249

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And why didn't I find this yesterday...

before Hyunsuk did?

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1683798326

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 12:13 PM
from IP address 66.26.246.241

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At least it went to ....

... someone who can get it sympathetically fixed. The seller did a poor job describing it in the auction title, the slashes making it harder to search for, and Hyunsuks' timezone probably meant he found it while we were all asleep. Good going Hyunsuk!!

This message has been edited by martinmwr from IP address 24.80.163.137 on Dec 30, 2001 9:56 PM

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 12:57 PM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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He shoots, he scores! Probably the best BIN before (more)

by Bill

the New Year!

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 9:35 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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I guess I have finally joined the BIN King ranks...

among Bill (with his Omega Ploprof), hyshim (with Type 2), and others.
Last evening, I was searching ebay for dive watches just before dinner
and the Type 1 just popped up under newly added items. Engaging the
BIN option happened so naturally and instinctively that I do not think
I was even conscious of what I was doing as the event unfolded. It'd
be interesting to see who others will join us next year here on MWR.

Happy new year!

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 9:52 PM
from IP address 210.181.4.120

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The king is dead long live the king !

by Ian Parkin

Congrats on a fine bit of BIN work.

IAP

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 8:39 AM
from IP address 12.232.106.172

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BLANCPAIN AIR COMMAND: need informations....

about this nice and rare chrono: if there are some military markings, what are the inscriptions on the back (out and inside), what's the movement???
Many Tnx. and regards. Max

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 11:33 AM
from IP address 151.27.137.53

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Anyone heard if anything is being done to restore photopoint service?(nt)

by Elias

/// //

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 10:15 AM
from IP address 24.206.13.33

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I've heard nothing yet. I switched over to Image Station. NT

by Jack

/

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 1:47 PM
from IP address 152.163.197.209

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Jack: did you find imagestation as easy to use as photopoint?(more)

by Elias

I've just set up an account but have to admit to find it (so far!) not very user friendly.
Regards,
Elias

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 4:34 PM
from IP address 24.206.13.33

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Elias, at first I found it confusing. After a week or so>>>>>

by Jack

it's become easier. A fellow MWRine gave me a couple of tips. The easy method is to set up an album. When you want to add images:

Select the album you want to add to from the drop down menu.

Go to the "edit" option

Go to "add images or video"

Go to "more upload methods"

This option presents like Photopoint.

I've had consistent problems adding more than 2-3 images at a time. The server times out 100% of the time when I try to uplod more than 3 images.

If anyone has a solution for this problem, let me know.

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 5:08 PM
from IP address 152.163.197.183

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Jack, glad to read you've become comfortable with ImStation's controls! nt

/

Bob A. (SD)

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 6:48 PM
from IP address 65.7.152.107

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Thanks for your help. As you can see, I'm passing it on!>>

by Jack

What software do you use to achieve the special effects?

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 6:59 AM
from IP address 152.163.207.189

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ThumbsPlus 5.x beta has a nifty combine option with >>

by Bob A (SD)

numerous ways to merge photos. My signature photo combines 4 individual jpgs. They've also been tweaked in several other ways too. ThumbsPlus only allows processing entire photos unlike the very expensive PhotoShop which can do editing of specific areas of an image. TP also serves as a great cataloger, slide show presenter, and can convert darned near any format under the sun. www.cerious.com

Bob A. (SD)

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 11:35 AM
from IP address 65.7.152.107

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More Images For Trevor's Bund "Gallery"

The nearly generic Mil-W-46374B field watch and a Sinn 656 on a Bund strap. Amazing to me how this dresses up the W-46374B, and neutralizes its relatively small size. The 656 looks great on anything.

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 9:33 AM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Are you sure that this are real BUND straps ?? .....more

I am sure its not and have compared the straps with the BUND straps I sell . Sorry this should be no critics but a BUND looks different to your straps.

Look at the real one. Best from germany J�rgen

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 4:29 PM
from IP address 149.225.142.105

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Similar to those you sell, Jurgen, but...

by Ned

not identical. The strap I purchased for $19.95 from Randolph Nielsen in Florida has the same Bund code, stainless buckle, and almost identical construction. It is stamped 18mm, however, on the inside, near the non-buckle end. The quality is high, and the attachment is accomplished in the same manner.

It looks authetic to me, Jurgen, but I don't have any knowledge of the Bund procurement history or procedures. Perhaps you can enlighten us about how exactly to tell a "real" Bund from a fake, and what information you have in support of this.

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 5:03 PM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Hi Ned do you have a pic from both sides , specially from the back with

if yes I will check this matter asap.

Best from germany J�rgen

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 5:45 PM
from IP address 149.225.0.50

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Here are links for the pics from the auction (more)

by Ned

Front & Back, Close up of coded area. I can do better, but I thought this might be enough for you:

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 8:31 PM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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New Info for BUND strap friends .......more

the pic you posted shows it . The difference between a real BUND and a after market Bund strap are: The real strap is made also from 2 leather
parts , the outer black and the inner beige side with the numbers but the real BUND outer side is pleated leather , means the leather is cut and
folded to have a better look and more quality for use. Your straps are only cut on the side and painted with brown color and not pleated ,this is
normally for lower quality work and makes it easier to produce .On the real BUND strap all 3 leather parts the straps and the middle part are
made this way. I have found no sample like this in all my german ref. books .
The real BUND straps are also pressed on the back side and this is a sign of quality too because the strap is only thick on the outer line and thin
for a better wear in the middle part.
The next thing is I never saw or heard about other measurements then 19/20 mm . At last I assume that a 18 mm strap if its real would have a
other ref. number then a 20 mm strap because ALL issued items in the german army have different numbers when they ARE different. The air
force watches as a sample have to have the same measurements ( TUTIMA / ARCTOS ) to get the same numbers so I assume that's the same
for straps. Buckles are standard today and it will be easy to get similar buckles like the BUND strap buckle. I remember some years back they
have had a much nicer buckle with more substance.
To get a number stamped in a leather strap needs about 50 - 100 $ for the tool so I think there will be someone and do it when he is able to get a
business. I don't want to criticize anybody here but I heard a lot of such things in the past and my suppliers here in germany tell me news asap.
BTW factories like Hirsch and Banda which produce all there stuff in china and around there have also good quality straps, they only use the
good old european name to sell this stuff. Its difficult for customers to decide which stuff they should buy and the price is sometimes may be the
main reason.

Best from the black wood forest J�rgen

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 12:25 PM
from IP address 149.225.44.142

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Thanks for pointing out these details, Jurgen.. nt

by Ned

nt

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 9:53 PM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Bund Straps

by EdT

The code is the NATO stock number for that particular band. the "12" on the second group of numbers is the NATO number for Germany. The US is "01" and Canada is "21"

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 10:40 PM
from IP address 65.92.185.146

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I have the same strap as Ned, Jurgen's Bund (more)

by Trevor

Jurgen's Bund is definitely different. Leather looks suppler and as he pointed out, the leather is also folded in on the sides. The clasp is slightly different as well, my clasp is rectangular whereas Jurgen's is curved at the top. Anyone else have the same "US" Bund?

Thanks for the info Jurgen

regards,
Trevor

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 1:34 AM
from IP address 64.228.38.44

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BUND strap info I found observing........>

by Drew

As Jurgen and Trevor say, there is a difference in the real vs the replika bund construction. I have examples of both , several originals (newer and older stlyes of buckles) and one of the replikas. Trevor's discription is correct in that the top black leather on the original German issues is more supple in its type of leather tanning and the type of leather used, meaning a better softer accurate cow-grain texture.

The underside tan dyed leather (on the replika from Randy's source) is not just a painted underside of the top leather (Jurgen, you can't see this difference in the scans here) , but a second additional thin split grain piece (smooth side out) sewed together as well. The main difference is the slightly "plastic like" finished smoother grain and slightly thinner top piece of lower quality split grain leather, and the unfolded seam (sewn hem) construction on the replikas.

I think the copy is still a good end user for wear, but by no means is it authentic at all. I don't know where the copies are made but they are floating around at USA Nawcc watch shows in some parts of the country.

Thanks Jurgen, for providing us an authentic source for collectors, and thanks Randy for providing a low cost look a like that work well too.

IMHO -Drew

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:03 AM
from IP address 198.81.17.41

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Thank you very much , I hope this helps .....more

For your information : At the moment we wait for a new straps i have designed for Military
watches . They look great a bid like the W.W.II straps from Glashuette and
Hanhart , may be this will find some friends also in the states.
My first sample will show up asap.

Best from the black wood forest J�rgen

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 2:30 PM
from IP address 149.225.114.62

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Anyone heard from Tito?

I've tried to email him, but haven't heard back from him.

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 8:17 AM
from IP address 141.154.229.212

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Yes, Carlos, just yesterday he called me (more)

If you'd like his email address, send me your email address.

Best,

Richard

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 8:19 AM
from IP address 12.88.83.59

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Thanks. Check your email. nt

.

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 8:41 AM
from IP address 141.154.229.212

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Yes, he called me and Richard has seen him (more)

by Bob

Hello Carlos,

Tito moved to NYC and has been job hunting lately. He had to give up his computer from his old work and last I heard he was waiting to get his old laptop back from his sister. Meanwhile, he has been frequenting cybercafes as time permits. Tito is alive and well, but Richard or Suwei could tell you better than I.

Best,

Bob

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 8:20 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.87

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More SAR trivia; the date cyclops (more)

by Bob

Hi MWRines,

In case anyone wants to know: The date cyclops was called for in the contract. Removal is really easy. Use a small butane torch or better yet a cigar lighter. I have a Windmill lighter that casts a small blue flame. Heat the cyclops with the tip of the flame pointed away from the bezel to avoid burning the bezel. After a few short seconds, the cyclops turns white and it can be nudged off with a razor. Scrape away any excess glue. Replacement is just as easy. Scrape excess glue off the cyclops and glue it back on with ultra violet glue available at watch supply stores.

There is no permanent damage done and you can put the cyclops away for another day.

Best Regards,

Bob

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 7:34 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.87

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Bob, why alter an issued watch, especially when there were so few made? <nt>

*

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 8:18 AM
from IP address 12.88.83.59

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It's not a permanent alteration by any means (more)

by Bob

Hi Richard,

I for one prefer a smooth crystal. Secondly, I know it can be glued back on at any time. This is not a permanent alteration.

For what it's worth, I am very much against permanent modifications on anything-- from cars to watches. You're talking to someone who doesn't even like hanging pictures on a wall because of nail holes. So for me to say I am comfortable with it, you can bet it's nothing that is irresversible.

Best Regards,

Bob

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 8:24 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.87

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We agree then (more)

Hi Bob:

It took me a long time to "get used to" Frankenwatch projects - until I realized that this kind of research and experimentation might lead to something very interesting one day. I suppose that the SAR is, in part, a result of this.

Best,

Richard

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 8:30 AM
from IP address 12.88.83.59

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Not "in part" (more)

by Bob

Hi Richard,

All those Sandy Seamonsters were direct precursors to the Marathon SAR. I wasn't at liberty to mention it at the time, but Marathon was busy having a case made up to accept the huge bezels Jim was milling. We tested a few bezel prototypes and made more than a few mock up watches with dials using different configurations on the theme. Eventually, some of these early mock ups were sent to Marathon to be incorporated in what we now know as the SAR.

Best Regards,

Bob

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 8:35 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.87

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I wondered about that! I loved those earlier >>

Sandy Seamonsters and now the net result in the SAR. I haven't been able to take it off (save experiments with brcaelets and straps) since it arrived. NEVER had that feeling with any other watch (and I have quite a few).

BZ's to all concerned with the design development efforts! Superlative!!!

Bob A

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 11:37 AM
from IP address 65.7.152.107

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I wonder if a soldering iron would work? nt.

by Andy S.

nt.

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 11:40 AM
from IP address 161.184.163.144

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Isnt the Crystal Glued in as well ....

I thought the crystal was glued in. Will the heating of the cyclops be enough to compromise the Crystal glue? Ignorant minds want to know

ALex

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 12:54 PM
from IP address 66.108.74.249

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The crystal glue will be different from the ...

.... cyclope glue, which most likely a cyanoacrylate (crazy glue) type.

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 1:04 PM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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Probably not... most are pressure fit. (nt)

by Bob

nt

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 4:57 PM
from IP address 4.35.216.87

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I don't think ...

... mineral glass or sapphire crystals are pressure fit, I think they're glued in with a UV-activated glue.

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 7:39 PM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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I know that....

by jim

the crystals on the SAR are pressed in.
If you do not like the cyclops on the outside you can reverse the crystal itself and then the cyclops is on the inside. I did this to mine. There's plenty of room. The only thing is you have to remove the movement to press out the crystal and that means you have to press the detent to remove the crown. If you have no experience with this do not do it for you can damage it easily and will not be able to put it back together. A word to the wise.

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 8:31 PM
from IP address 64.12.107.38

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Normally pressure fitted (more)

by LEMAC

Hi martin,

Normally crystals in water resistant watches are pressure fitted using a gasket that is a flat circle around the edge of the crystal, and which fits between the crystal and the wall of the case.

I once watched the technical director of Breitling USA struggle with sealing an Ocean Pro. The watch kept failing the pressure test after assembly. The problem was with fitting that darn case/crystal gasket. The required tightness to keep the crystal in place under a negative pressure differential makes it really hard to insert successfully. It took four, maybe five, tries before it was successful.

LEMAC

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 6:05 AM
from IP address 172.186.70.235

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Wow !!

That is amazing !! I imagine the gasket is no thicker than paper as well. Is that with all watches or is that something that justifies the price on more expensive watches? Is that something that is inherent in all dive watches?
Alex

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 9:48 AM
from IP address 66.108.74.249

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Having assisted in numerous case pressure tests,>>>

by Jack

all have had a gasket of some sort that seals the crystal and the case. And yes,it can be time consuming to get "it all together" and create the waterproof seal.

One must obviously test the case sans movement and then re-install the movemment.

It isn't always as easy as it sounds.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 3:03 PM
from IP address 152.163.188.3

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i need the date cyclops!

by bob w.

happy new year to all,

i need the date cyclops. i can't see the date on a number of watches. the cyclops does a great job for me. now the confession, i removed them when i was younger and could see.

best to all for the new year!

bob w.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 5:52 AM
from IP address 152.163.197.68

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Help! IWC 10 AF/807 N.I.173

Who is able to help? I try to identify a watch with a IWC Calibre 89 movement (like the Mk XI), nearly the same dimensions as a wristwatch, but no wristwatch. The case is designed to be attached to some kind of apparatus. I guess to a reconnaissance camera in an airplane. Marked with the Broad Arrow and in the upper line "10 AF/807" and in a second line below "N.I. 173".

What for this watch has been used?
What do these Markings stand for?

Greetings from Germany

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 5:55 AM
from IP address 62.227.80.55

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It is indeed (more)

by Foggy

a camera timing device. I think the markings are South African Airforce, although not 100% sure.

Regards

Foggy

Posted on Dec 30, 2001, 7:05 AM
from IP address 213.1.132.11

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Thanks, where from do you know it is camera device?

Thanks for the quick answer.

I have to apologize for not stopping asking. Where from do you know it is a camera device?

Kind regards

Jochen Koenig

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 3:18 AM
from IP address 62.227.79.176

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Hi - this was my source (more)

by Foggy

http://www.gbwatches.co.uk

Maybe Guy, the web-site owner where this item is shown, can help you more ? It's shown on page 4 or 5 of the watches.

Regards

Foggy

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 4:22 AM
from IP address 213.122.193.41

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Thanks again

Thanks again for your help. I visited that webside. On the one hand I already met the owner of that webside and his watch in another Internet Forum and so I do know, that he doesn't know more about that watch than I do. On the other hand, this watch can't be of the WW II era as it is described, because the IWC Cal. 89 and this type of protection against magnetism are post-war production.

So research goes on. Nevertheless again many thanks from Germany.

Jochen

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 5:21 AM
from IP address 62.158.42.41

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