The Military Watch Resource

This is the site for enthusiasts of military timepieces. All discussions related to military timepieces, and watches in general are welcome. Please post your own personal watches for sale on the PX (not here.) Links to watches for sale are permissable as long as they are for discussion purposes. Links to fake and counterfeit watch sites are prohibited. There is a Zero Tolerance Policy in effect for rude and inconsiderate behavior. Any submissions to this site remain the property of the original author/contributor. Anonymous or inconsiderate postings may be deleted at the discretion of a moderator.
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*** Well it's been a good run.. Farewell to Network54 (more)

Hi MWRines,

I've been avoiding this day because Network54 has been really, really good to us. However, in light of the recent downtime problems with Network54, we've switched over to dedicated forumware. Please join us at our new home. The Network54 forum will remain here for archival purposes, but you won't be able to post any new messages.

Here's the link:

http://206.67.55.7/cgibin/mwr.pl

Be sure to bookmark the new MWR forum.

Happy New Year!

Bob

This message has been edited by militarywatch from IP address 4.35.216.165 on Feb 2, 2002 12:10 AM
This message has been edited by militarywatch from IP address 4.35.216.165 on Feb 2, 2002 12:10 AM

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 3:17 PM
from IP address 4.35.217.53

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Check out MWR Parallel Universe via the Home page...

by Ned

There is a parallel MWR universe now at www.braodarrow.net. Check it out by clciking on main forum link on the MWR homepage.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 9:11 AM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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What price to expect for a 1000m O & W Caribbean?

by scuba

Hi,

I would like to know how much I should expect to pay for a good condition 1000m O & W Caribbean.
And there seems to be different dial colors, are some more valuable than others?

Thank you very much.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 9:04 AM
from IP address 213.3.185.26

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When the big batch of NOS Caribbean's surfaced, (more)

by Bill

back when MWR was just starting up, the initial popularity had posters guessing that the watch would soon be going for over $1000. My impression is that this hasn't happened, and that they topped out around $800. That would be for mint, or pretty near.

The black dial seems to be the more common. The blue less seldom seen.

Note that even an untouched NOS specimen will require an immediate full mechanical, as the movement will be bone-dry and the seals will have turned to viscous goop.

Also to be considered, the high, scratch-prone crystal is almost impossible to replace.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 9:33 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Thanks Bill, H.Seung, Chris R - all's well that ends well

I contacted the seller of the faked Seamaster 300, told him of the problems with it and we decided to part company without blasting eachother's feedback. Thanks again for saving me from my folly. Of course I had already purchased a $460 money order to complete the transaction. As luck would have it, the new SAR also costs $460. You can see where this is going.... I will be proud to own an issue watch designed by members of this forum. Chris

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 5:00 AM
from IP address 147.39.62.2

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Glad you're 'joining the club' Chris! Aloha! (nt)

:

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 9:46 AM
from IP address 205.173.95.39

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A good outcome! nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 9:48 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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It was a pleasure to help you to achieve a good end (nt)

.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 1:32 PM
from IP address 212.144.178.195

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Rolex Mil Sub in Bournmouth.......more

Has anybody been able to authenticate this ebay mil sub?
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1682353778
What happened when it was last offered? Didn't it hit reserve? What was the high bid?
Thanks
Jon

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 12:37 AM
from IP address 203.96.111.200

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If they have, it hasn't been announced, though if (more)

by Bill

I knew it was genuine I might be keeping quiet about it myself! Lack of a caseback photo, etc., plus that annoying private auction business -- not attractive in this price-range!

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 11:33 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Anyone know when the Doxa re-issues are due out?<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:52 PM
from IP address 128.115.73.104

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Reissue/repro vintage Japanese military wristwatche sources?

I collect modern vintage-style mechanical wristwatches, with an emphasis on military pieces. Are there any Japanese mechanical watches available that meet the above criteria? Please advise and many thanks. Happy New Year.

Bob

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:46 PM
from IP address 216.77.219.169

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Well, I'm only aware of ...

... a Seiko Re-issue of a watch from the period, and some quartz watches in the Japanese WW2 style.

seiko historical collection "laurel" ref# SCVM001

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 11:47 PM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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There was a PX posting ...

by Ian Parkin

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=48905&messageid=1009077215

IAP

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 9:02 AM
from IP address 12.232.106.172

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That's the only nice one I know of. (more)

by Bill

Seiko, from about two years ago, comes in a nicely oversized wooden box, all writing in kanji. I have a hunch these were only available by mail, as I looked for but didn't see them in Tokyo last year.

Otherwise, there are just these clunky quartz jobs:

http://page4.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/d9820223

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 9:55 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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tritium or maraglo, which is best????

one more question from a newbie. Iam familiar with the tritium, but what is maraglo? Does it work as well as tritium? what are the pros and cons? Once again, Thank you for any info you can give. Joe

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 8:09 PM
from IP address 134.67.6.24

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Tritium, Maraglow, different horses for ...

... different courses. For shere time-length of lumination the Winner is Tritium, but Maraglow/Luminova is bright and will be visible many hours after charging, but Maraglow can be used in enviroments where radiation monitoring is crucial. But for run-of-the-mill "good bright illumination" Tritium is best (while still young) though Maraglow/Luminova does not have an age-limit for charging and illuminating.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 8:49 PM
from IP address 24.80.163.137

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Different Properties, Different Advantages - (more)

by Ned

The mildly radioactive beta particles emitted by tritium constantly excite the phosphor coating the glass vials (if it is Tritium gas vials that are used), or excite the phosphors in the paint used. For about a dozen years whatever has this luminous treatment applied to it will glow. The major advantage of tritium systems is that they produce light independent of their exposure to ambient light. They are also generally brighter than photo-phosphorescent systems after both have been in the dark for a couple of hours, and tritium system's light output stays more or less constant through out the night. Their disadvantages are the fact that they will produce light for a limited number of years. They are roughly half as bright after about 10 years, and they continue to decline in brightness until they are not bright enough to have useful luminous properties (about 15 years or so after application). Another disadvantage is that they can not be used in environments where radiation detectors are in use, as they can trigger alarms and cause other associated nuisances.

Maraglo is a specially treated and specially applied version of Luminova - a specially formulated photphosphor (light excites its molecules to emit photons, ie. light, instead of radioactive particles). It is generally regarded as the best of the non-tritium materials in terms of its combined brightness and the persistence of its luminosity after light exposure. Most people cite the figure "10 times as bright" when comparing Luminova to conventional phosphors. In fact when you consider brightness after several hours it is even better than that, and Maraglo is superior to regular Luminova. It's advantages compared with tritium are:

it should (if protected from, excessive heat, UV light and water) have a longer useful life than tritium systems;

it is non-radioactive, and, therefore can be used in more environments, and without any fear of radiation exposure (although tritium is also generally regarded as safe if kept in the watch),and,

for a time just after it is recharged by exposure to light, it is brighter than even tritium gas vials (this superior brightness, however, is lost after something like an hour or two (depending on a lot of factors).

Hopefully, others will have more information and other opinions to add to this summary. Bottom line for me is that tritium glass vials are the best. Tritum paint next, and Maraglo third. Although I hasten to add that this whole question would be secondary for me, and well behind many other factors, like what movement, dial legibility, cost, and so on.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 8:56 PM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Worth hitting 'Print'.Excellent summary!<nt>

by Ronbo

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:24 PM
from IP address 128.115.73.104

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Anybody ever purchased from www.worldofwatches.com??? Thanks. <nt>

/

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 7:29 PM
from IP address 12.88.96.249

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Is this the company that got a lot of attention on Watchnet a couple of years ago???....nt

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 11:56 PM
from IP address 203.96.111.200

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O.K., O.K. I was sucked into this and couldn't resist

by Ron

the E-Bay auction last Sunday where I bid on two watches, the 6B Jaeger Le Coultre ca. 1948, and the IWC mark 11 ca. 1948. Won both of them and sure as hell hope I wasn't that foolish. Most likely overpaid, but I just don't see these pieces very often. Any way would like to ask advice about getting them serviced properly and wonder if I should send them off to their respective manufacturers for it, or take them to my local watchmaker? Thanks, Ron

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 6:27 PM
from IP address 65.34.212.171

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Links to them? nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 9:58 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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Could the IWC be this one ..

by Ian Parkin

from the master of dark and blurry photos ?

I actually thought that this one had sold previously to a MWR regular.

IAP

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1681723507

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 2:12 PM
from IP address 12.232.106.172

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Could the JLC be this one ...

by Ian Parkin

from the master of dark and blurry images ?

IAP

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1681725830

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 2:14 PM
from IP address 12.232.106.172

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Is this 24 hr Elgin A11 on Ebay correct? (more)

Doe the 24 hour Elgin A11 have a 539 movement as this seller states?

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1683156602

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 4:11 PM
from IP address 12.88.104.132

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Wrong movement and hands. Case type is correct. Band is not an original either. nt

by James D.

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 4:26 PM
from IP address 129.162.1.32

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Should have a G-647 or G-685. nt

by James D.

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 4:27 PM
from IP address 129.162.1.32

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I bought a "NOS" 24 hr Elgin military not too long ago

by Ron

and it was advertised as having a cal. 539 movement. When I had it opened for service, it had a 685 movement (with NO letter in front of the 685). The movment looked NOS. Probably the seller has not opened the watch to look at the movement to verify. That is what happened in my case. I overpaid, but after bringing this discrepancy to the seller's attention, I was refunded a suitable amount. There is a lot of confusion, neglect, etc. in this world-wide watch market! Ron

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 6:20 PM
from IP address 65.34.212.171

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I don't agree that there is a lot of confusion...

by James D.

the sellers know that buyers are willing to pay a premium for what is not a very common watch, and that most buyers either don't know or don't care to know that the ONLY movements original to the Elgin true 24 hours watches are either the G-647 or a serial numbered G-685. Most likely, your movement is out of an instrument clock. That's not bad, but still is not correct. I hope your watch at least is in a Keystone case and not a Star case. That's another common mistake when sellers put these watches together. Best regards,

James D.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 8:06 AM
from IP address 209.240.222.130

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#141 checking in...

As if xmas and new year's wasn't good enough I just got SAR #141 from the post office. I couldn't be a happier chappier

Now the search for the perfect strap begins in earnest heh heh.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 3:20 PM
from IP address 63.60.241.113

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Congrats!...

by rgs

Good to hear.

I knew the moment I purchased the watch that I would be looking for a bracelet to fit it. I usually only prefer a bracelet. I am curious as to what the new Marathon bracelet will look like and when it will be available.

At present, I have a rubber dive stap on it and may change my mind about a bracelet since it looks so good. The strap is from an old Pulsar dive watch. The strap fits the lugs and is a little wider after that. I think the watch needs a wide strap to look its best.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 6:55 PM
from IP address 64.12.105.162

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Re: Congrats!...

I grabbed a cheapo Hirsch (sp?) rubber strap with a brushed buckle for it on the way to work, looks mighty fine...the SAR seems, if anything, lighter than my Seiko diver, more legible and MUCH brighter in the dark. Next step is decyclopation!

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 11:22 PM
from IP address 210.215.48.8

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Fout different ChronoSports on xbay including UDT (more)

by Elias

This UDT is a later version (three pushers vs two pushers on early versions) and the service center in Connecticut still carries parts for it. They also still have NOS black PVD bracelets. I will not be bidding on any.
Happy New Year
Elias
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&ebaytag1=ebayreg&query=chronosport&query2=chronosport&search_option=1&exclude=&category0=&minPrice=&maxPrice=&ebaytag1code=0&st=&SortProperty=MetaEndSort

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 10:55 AM
from IP address 24.206.13.33

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diver model question

by XB

What is this diver model worth?

Collectable?

Thanks.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 3:26 AM
from IP address 195.186.186.162

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Waterborne strap question (more)

Hello:

Received my straps from Reef Scuba yesterday for my SAR. Any links as to how to use them properly? Same as the Nato G10?

Thanks,

Richard

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:20 AM
from IP address 12.88.84.215

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Just like a NATO...

by Ned

except maybe modifiying it as James suggests, i.e., chop off one of the rings, and remove the Waterbourne patch to clean it up a bit.

I wear mine stock, and just as a NATO, but with the strap end tucked back over and under to keep it out of the way. Best. Ned

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 10:59 AM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Thanks, Ned. That's what I thought but (more)

Hi Ned:

My SAR was a bit tight, probably due to the Waterborne label and the extra keeper. I'll take one of the keepers off - any suggestions on the best way to do that?

Thanks,

Richard

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 11:05 AM
from IP address 12.88.97.17

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James suggested...

by Ned

taking one of the rings off of the 6 O'clock end. See thread...

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=48806&messageid=1009027940

I haven't tried it myself, but if I were to do this modification I would take off a ring on the 6 end. Both are in a single loop of nylon, so you'll be left with one ring that will give you a bit more room for the SAR. How to do it?

Maybe.. clamp one of the rings in a vise and use a hacksaw to cut through one side. then open the ring with leverage (screwdriver?) and slide it off.

Were I to take off the label, I would carefully cut the stitching with a razor blade and under magnification. Tweezers would be a big help in pulling out the treads.

Let us kow how it turns out.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 12:19 PM
from IP address 24.128.186.19

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Hi Ned - I'm going to take your advise (more)

I've already removed the label by first removing the stitching which now gives me a little play, but not enough.

Tomorrow I'm going to my local locksmith and I'll ask him to cut off (with the right tool!) that inner ring at the 6:00 position.

Will let you know how it turns out.

Thanks very much for the help.

Best,

Richard

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 1:22 PM
from IP address 12.88.85.66

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I used some heavy duty electrician's wire cutters to remove>

by Jack

the extra ring.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 1:55 PM
from IP address 152.163.197.194

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No need to cut the extra ring (more)

The ring can simply be pulled apart far enough to slip right off the band. In case you ever need the extra D-ring its still there to be used. I did this on my 1" strap without any difficulties.

Dan

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 7:56 PM
from IP address 63.228.142.89

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Another Leonidas question for SideB

by Mike

Simon, I depressed the pin at the top of the watch to activate the timer, only to find that it would not return to its proper position. Does this sound like a broken return spring. Also, when a professional watch repairman works on such a piece, does he need "original parts" or are "generic" ones available to perform most repairs? Either way, I have a German fellow close by that does wonderful work and this will now give me a chance to have the watch cleaned etc. You answered my previous question, pertaining to the silver on my watch, does NT mean "no" or plated? Thank you again for your much valued opinion!

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:16 AM
from IP address 64.228.196.189

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Far fewer Adanac Nav.'s on ebay these days...more

by Ronbo

I have been following them for a couple months now and there seems to be a definite decline in the number being sold.There is still something special about this watch to me which seems transitional.You know-not a Benrus and not a Marathon.I actually prefer it to my Marathon 'Lighthouse' models on some occasions.Might be worth tucking a couple more away for a rainy day.Happy New Year-Ronbo.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 5:43 AM
from IP address 134.9.137.57

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That is true

My Adanac is the watch to keep! Classic design and something that will never let you down, I bought my watch at a fleamarket and will never let it go.
Keep on holding on to these diamonds in the rough.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 5:56 AM
from IP address 152.163.201.61

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great watch but the price has dropped and people are holding n/t

/

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 7:39 AM
from IP address 205.188.200.199

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Any idea what they are worth now as compared to before they dropped?nt

nt.

dmh

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 7:58 AM
from IP address 152.163.201.61

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Not sure what they are going for now (much more)

by Bob

Hiya,

At one time I was seeing Adanacs go as high as $250, and many for around $225. Rarely did I see them for any less than $200. You may find some hovering around the $200 mark these days, or even a bit less.

This is just a hunch, but I think you might blame part of the reason for the price drop on MWR.

Prior to MWR, I used to look high and low for both Marathon and Adanac steel cased Navigators. I personally bought 4 or 5 of them in the early days of MWR. I rarely saw more than one or two on eBay at any given time, and sometimes there were lapses of several weeks when I didn't see any.

Then the steel cased Navigator was made available on MWR. The steel cased Navigator was made available to just about anyone who wanted one and since they bear so much resemblance and share so much provenance with the early Marathons and Adanacs, folks probably got their fill. A lot of people took advantage of the ready supply and bought one or two.

My prediction is that prices will start to rise again when I run out of steel cased Navigators to sell and people start to realize they can't just buy one when they feel like it.

Best Regards,

Bob

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 8:09 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.87

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Now that you mention this Bob....

I think you hit the nail on the head! The old law of supply and demand at work. If MWR causes more people to be interested in military watches, our collections should increase in value. The downside is the next watch we want to buy is going to be more expensive. It is a double edged sword unless you are ready to liquidate. I'm not ready to liquidate. I hope you sell out of the re-issue soon. It will be interesting to see what the market does then! HAPPY NEW YEAR to all

dmh

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:36 AM
from IP address 152.163.201.61

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I'm with you>>

by Yao

I have an Adanac and a Nav I love my Adanac. That trasitional quality is very alluring plus it has the heft of a Benrus case. Still like my Marathons but that Adanac just has something about it and I not just talking about the reverse Canada thing.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 3:26 AM
from IP address 163.32.4.235

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mineral glass or arcrylic crystal??????

Im wanting to purchase my first military watch. I have no experience with them. I see them offered with glass and arcrylic crystals. does the arcrlic scratch easy? which is most durable? thank you in advance for any info you can help me with. Joe

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 3:06 AM
from IP address 134.67.6.24

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I prefer acrylic to mineral glass any day (more)

by Bob

Hello Joe,

Mineral glass cannot be buffed once it is scratched and it does scratch fairly easily. Acrylic scratches if you breath hard on it, but it polishes out just as easily with a bit of metal or plastic polish.

Sapphire is tough to scratch, but aesthetically it is dead when compared to the warmth of acrylic. I like to wear acrylic, I like to abuse sapphire. Mineral glass comes in last.

Best Regards,

Bob

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 7:42 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.87

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I like acrylic best

by RJ

I consider acrylic the most durable since it is harder to break than glass.

I've heard that glass is harder to break than sapphire. I'm really not sure, but for that reason I've always liked it better than sapphire. It's by far the most expensive also.

Some watches have a glass crystal with a layer of sapphire on top.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:27 AM
from IP address 64.12.105.31

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Acrylic. Mellow-looking, tactile, DOMED and easy to maintain. (more)

by Bill

I've restored acrylic crystals to like-new when they've been literally opaque with scratches. You can sand the entire surface off, then repolish. A scratch on mineral is there for good, at least in terms of what you can do at home.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 10:37 AM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL MWR-INES FROM ITALY!! (nt)

no text

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 1:38 AM
from IP address 151.27.139.91

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Happy New Year to you, and to all MWRines (more)

by Bob

Hi MWRines,

Hard to believe that MWR celebrates it's second birthday on January 17, 2002. We've come a long ways, and we've made some great friends.

Happy New Year to all!

Bob

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 7:58 AM
from IP address 4.35.216.87

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Bob, a thank you to you and a question (more)

Hi Bob:

First of all, a happy, healthy, and safe New Year to you. Again, thank you for all you've done to keep MWR a great place to learn from and meet new friends from all over the world.

Here's my question, however "newbie" it may be. When you switch over to your own software, how will be know the new address? Will our "favorites" link to MWR take us there?

Best to you,

Richard

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 8:36 AM
from IP address 12.88.84.215

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When I switch, all links will lead to the new forum (more)

by Bob

Hi Richard,

And if anyone has the old forum bookmarked, the final post will provide a link to the new forum too...

I would leave Network54 with a lot of trepidation. They have been really, really good to us, but lately, they seem to be down quite a bit. I haven't even seen a flashing banner in a long time.

Best Regards,

Bob

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 10:29 AM
from IP address 4.35.217.53

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ATP Picture Archive (more)

Happy New Year everyone!

I've set up an ImageStation album of dial, back and movement scans for ten different Army Time Pieces (ATPs).

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292152515

Enjoy!

Marvin

PS Actually, I haven't included a movement scan of the Ebel since I haven't figured out the mystery of that crazy case. If anyone can clue me in, I'll be able to post a movement scan of the Ebel as well.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 10:54 PM
from IP address 203.165.45.41

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Well done Marvin! Happy New Year!...nt

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 1:15 AM
from IP address 203.96.111.200

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My guess on the Ebel case (more)

by Foggy

Hi Marvin

It looks similar to the Roamer cases, as shown below, where the watch centre pushes out from the front. I've taken this Roamer apart before. It had a split stem, which I pulled out. Then I removed the crystal, and the movement came out through the front. Unusually for me, I also managed to put it back together correctly, and it still works !!

Cheers

Foggy

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 4:10 AM
from IP address 213.122.204.106

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Thanks, I'll give it a try. (nt)

.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 2:07 PM
from IP address 203.165.45.41

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Very nice collection Marvin...

Marvin,

Any comments or stories that go with these watches?

I don't know much about these ATPs. Which is the
rarest? Which is the most valued?

I like the Unitas the best.

Very impressive. Good work and thanks for sharing
the pictures.

M. M. Henry

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 11:36 AM
from IP address 24.69.255.204

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ATPs . . . (more)

Hi Maurice,

Thanks for the kind comments.

Army Time Pieces (ATPs) were the watches issued to the Royal Army before the WWWs. Actually, there was some overlap since, according to Ziggy, the ATPs were issued from 1939 to 1945 and the WWWs came into use in 1943. In many ways the ATPs were similar to the WWWs: luminous hands and markers, fixed lug bars, 15-jewel Swiss movements, sub-seconds, water resistance, and screwback cases. The most obvious difference was that they usually had white dials (a few did have black dials). Also, they were smaller than the WWWs. As you know, the WWWs averaged about 35 mm in diameter (w/o crown), but the ATP average is around 32 mm. The measurements for mine are:

Cortebert 31 mm
Cyma 28.5 mm
Ebel 32 mm
Grana 32 mm
Lemania 31 mm
Moeris 33 mm
Record 32 mm
Rotary 33 mm
Timor 31 mm
Unitas 33 mm

Also, I get the impression that, while the WWWs were designed as military watches from the ground up, the ATPs were much more a case of 'making do' with available parts and available watches. I get the feeling that in some (many?) cases civilian watches were simply conscripted as ATPs. There seem to be more exceptions to the specs: black dials, spring bars, center secs, etc. While most ATPs are marked with a broad arrow, 'ATP', and a serial number, some don't have a serial number.

I don't really know about rarity, since it's much harder to pin down which Swiss companies actually made ATPs. Taylerson lists eighteen: Buren, Cortebert, Cyma, Ebel, Enicar, Eterna, FHF, Grana, Lemania, Limi, Moeris, Montillier, Omega, Reconvillier, Record, Rotary, Timor, and Unitas. But it's unclear whether ATPs from all of these companies do really exist. (Remember, Taylerson also lists Kurth and Thommen WWWs. At last count no one on MWR had seen either one of these.) In Imai, there are pictures of Eberhard, Mido, and Rodana ATPs. And of course, there has been an IWC ATP offered on eBay. (Our consensus here was that it was suspect.) Throw into the mix, the 'conscripted' ATPs I mentioned above and it's really hard to draw up a definitve list. (Of course, to add to the confusion, we see many suspiciously marked 'ATPs' offered for sale.)

Since ATPs are unpopularly small and are often in rather poor condition, they aren't very expensive. Disregarding the questionable IWC, I guess Ebel would stand as the 'most valued' because of its unusual case. Of those in my collection, I too like the Unitas best.

Marvin

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 3:11 PM
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Thanks for the lesson...(more)

Hi Marvin,

Thanks a bunch for that lesson. Before this I would have never bothered giving a second look to
ATPs (unless I liked the 'look').

I will save your posting as a very good reference and
refer to it when I come across an ATP.

(Also I will look into fixing up my broken links to
your WWW images which have now moved to where you
mention in a post below.)

Regardless of the above, I think you have a lot of knowledge of military watches and a very nice collection. You should consider
getting a website where you not only display your
images, but also provide information such as that
you have mentioned in your post. Just a suggestion.

Regards.

-Maurice.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 4:23 PM
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you are rite on about the civilian provenance, since ATPs,

by hurley

properly expanded to "army trade pattern," were exactly that, trade pattern watches that were bought by the military for issue pending fulfillment of contract orders. the same deal with the pocket GSTPs (general service trade pattern) before them. i am aware that "temporary pattern" is the preferred expansion for some, and this has some appeal. however, the lists, while occasionally referring to "temporary" issues, the phrase "trade pattern" recurrs in both the TAP and GSTP context with great frequency. either way, marvin is exactly rite about the origins of ATP watches. perhaps this point speaks to MF's recent query about the possible dual life of the iwc mark ix.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 6:50 AM
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Marvin, without seeing the watch "hands on"...more

by Steven james

it appears this may be one of those weird ones that the movement is in a "module" that pressure fits into the bezel from below (Omega Cosmic 2000's had this set-up as well). If this is the fitting mechanism, they open by stablizing the bezel and lugs, then "forcing" the movement out from above. If you inspect the bezel closely from above, you should be able to see a hairline if this is the fitting mode.

To open I use: a small bench viseopened just to the dimension of the madule plus 1mm or so; set a fully opened screw-down cystal press (with a die that fits just on the top edge of the crystal/plexi) on the vise jaw guides with the die above the vise jaws; position the watch on top of the vise, then screw down the crystal press thus forcing-out the movement module. The module likely will have a two piece stem which can be removed easily; then remove the crystal/plexi (which should have a gasket between it and the module) and then lift out the movement.

I have heard others have been able to force the module without all this special gear and just forced it out by hand. But I have never found one that loose as most have an O-ring between the bezel wall and the module wall! Good luck.

Hope this was of some help (if only by eliminating a possibility).

Happy New Year and Cheers,

Steven

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 4:59 PM
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RE:Ebel ATP case

by Alex.R.

I have an Ebel with the pop out case and dismantling it is fairly easy.Hold the case in two hands with the lugs resting on your index fingers with your thumbs together gently push down on the crystal and the pod should push out from the outer case.The crystal can be eased off with a razor blade if needed,mine is quite loose and just pulls off.The winder has a two part stem and needs a gentle tug.The movement can now be removed.
Alex.R.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 5:26 PM
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I'm close . . . (more)

Hi Alex,

Following your directions, everything works fine up to the "gentle tug" on the winder. Even when I tug fairly hard, though, nothing happens and I'm afraid to just pull away.

Just to be sure, is it just a straight pull out on the crown? No twists? No angles?

Thanks for your help.

Regards,

Marvin

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 6:17 PM
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RE:Ebel Winder

Mine just pulls away no twisting or other manipulation required.If you are tugging at the winder and it is not coming away it may require an expert to free it.
Anything else I can help with regarding the Ebel please feel free to mail me.
Alex

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 2:30 AM
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Thanks, Alex, all is well . . . (more)

It took much more than a gentle tug, but it came out all right. And I didn't even break anything!

Thanks again.

Marvin

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 3:49 AM
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RE:Thank's,Alex, all is well.

Glad I could be of some help.Maybe my explanation of a gentle tug was not quite enough,it is hard to explain the amount of force required to remove something from another persons watch.Glad you did not break anything,I would have felt awful.
Alex.

Posted on Jan 2, 2002, 5:58 AM
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Great collection, and nice slide show setup, thanks. nt

by Alan N.

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:54 PM
from IP address 66.32.118.137

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Happy New Year to All !!!! <nt>

/

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 9:55 PM
from IP address 12.88.80.166

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Speaking of BP 50 Fathom Polish navy issue...

by Bill

Here's one on eBay.de that doesn't seem to be identified as such, but is: note the "MW" on caseback.

http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1682627639

Aparently a batch of these surfaced, NOS, from Polish navy stores last year. No idea how many, but I've seen, maybe, six. James Dowling once said that buying a BP 50 Fathoms was like marrying Elizabeth Taylor, but I've forgotten exactly what he meant by it!

This would be a nice piece to have. Like the MN Tudor Sub, this is one of the issue-marked dive watches by a big-name Swiss maker. A complete collection of these would be a beautiful thing: small, intensely focused. And very expensive, as you'd have to either start or finish with the MoD Sub. Let's see: MoD Sub, Mod SM 300, MN Tudor Sub, Israeli Eterna...? (For present purposes I'm ruling out CWC, Precista... What's the complete list of known, issue-marked, higher-end Swiss dive watches?

No intention to belittle the great Benrus Types I and II, to which I am a recent and ardent convert, but they are different -- because, now that I think of it, they are truly mil-spec, whereas all the watches I'm considering here are modifications (however minor) of civilian retail product. Curiously, as I've noted before, the CWC and Precista dives are also mil-spec, but the spec, basically, is the Omega SM 300!

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 8:18 PM
from IP address 24.80.4.208

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don't forget the Auricoste professional! n/t

/

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 8:03 AM
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Any others? nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 10:34 AM
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Tornek-Rayville USN...more

by Jon

Actually another version of the BP, but a USN contract watch with a fully marked case back. A very hard to find mil dive watch. I only know of one in MWR.
Jon

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 12:54 PM
from IP address 203.96.111.200

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And....The Italian issue Luminor Panerai made by Rolex...nt

by Jon

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 12:57 PM
from IP address 203.96.111.200

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IWC Ocean Bund 2000 (nt)

.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 1:46 PM
from IP address 12.236.156.51

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Hamilton Khaki, like date version of Hamilton 6B or GS

by Bill

Never saw one with this dial before:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1684372778

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 5:18 PM
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Nice! If only they omitted "Khaki" from the dial (more)

by Mike (E)

Speekowich, I know that Waltham used a "Khaki" tradename in the WW1 era, but can Hamilton/SMH claim it as such? I've always liked these watches, but avoid them 'cuz of the trademarky "Khaki" on the dial....

mike

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 8:11 PM
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Me too, though this one's interesting in that (more)

by Bill

it emulates a British rather than American watch.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 9:55 PM
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a new Khaki version on the market ( limited ed. officer's watch)

I just bought a brand new limited ed. Khaki just placed on the market with the launch of the Pearl Harbor movie. My version is a numbered 34 out of 3333(side of case imprinting). A very collectable Mil. retro styled watch. I think I might keep this one!
On the dial it has the same design as the very popular Hamilton Military WWII pocket watch. It is a Khaki with the words limited ed Mechanical. The case is 38mm with out the crown, Parkerized, and on a brown leather single piece strap.
Look for it if you like these type of watches!

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 6:07 AM
from IP address 152.163.201.61

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Dial style

I have seen a couple different Hamilton Military
Pocket watches( types that were placed in the Round grey case watch holder/w slide back window dispay.
The Khaki dial is similar to the Hamiliton Pocket watch dial that looks like this
- Black dial
- min.(60min) numerals on the outer
most part of dial
- hour numerals (1-12)in the center ring and
13-24 in the very center
- date window at 3:00
- dial lettered with the word
Hamiliton

Khaki
Mechanical
Limited Edition

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 12:55 PM
from IP address 64.12.103.32

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Ed: How does your Hamilton dial compare? (nt)

by Elias

/// //

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 10:49 AM
from IP address 24.206.13.33

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Mil blancpain 50 Fathoms

by T.A

Theres one for sale on timezone.com's sales corner(12/31/01 1603 hrs). Mil markings on back (he says, no photos). The seller is very proud of it as since he is asking $2,600.00. Are these that rare? I didn't know these were issued. Looks like it is in nice shape.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 4:18 PM
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The only issued BP 50F I've seen has Polish navy markings. (more)

by Bill

But any vintage BP 50F commands a high price. To be perfectly honest, I've never been sure why. BP was not a top brand, at that point, and probably these retailed for less than their equivalent in an Omega (and certainly for less than a Rolex). Anyway, they are top dollar today, as far as non-Rolex Swiss dives of the period go.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 5:09 PM
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I agree, BP certainly wasn't

that special during these years. In fact they were a pretty typical watch. Those 50F were just a nicely cased AS1361 or AS1700 with a cool bezel. Omega/Rolex made a much better watch. My thinking is that a couple of comments in books and some modern marketing has moved these watches up to their present position.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 10:18 AM
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Well, if you look at them as mid-market dive watches (more)

by Bill

from the heyday of scuba-inspired styling (and the dive watch was more about style than diving, for most wearers) they are some of the best-looking examples. Clean, classic for their type. Bucherer, for instance, made better-quality dive watches, but none of them are much sought after today.

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 10:42 AM
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This particular Blancpain 50 Fathoms is a reject from ......

by CJ

.........a Sydney watch dealer that could have been had for about AUD$3000.

Best wishes for the New Year!

Nothing wrong with it !! Love it or leave it!

Bill; Contact when you've got time >;-)

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 11:25 AM
from IP address 205.188.199.173

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I think I tried it on....more

Was it at Sydney Vintage Watches on Pitt St? Fred's place? I took a close look at it, liked it, but thought it a bit expensive for what it is.
I ended up with one of the Enicar Polish military watches. My NZ watchmaker advised that it was made up from parts. The same German dealer seemed to feature these BPs and I wonder if it may be the same story.
Rgds
Jon

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 1:06 PM
from IP address 203.96.111.200

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You're on the ball Jon ...That's the one that had a complete make over.

by CJ

Hi Jon,
You're a man on the spot and I'm glad you didn't chance
this one ......

Regards

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 2:57 PM
from IP address 152.163.207.206

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Happy new year! (more)

by Chris R

Dear fellow MWRines,

I wish you a happy new. There are only 10 minutes to go, then we in Germany will welcome a new year and a new currency - the Euro.

Health, wealth and a peaceful 2002 to all of you!

Christian

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 2:48 PM
from IP address 212.144.174.103

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Thank You Chris (more)

It was thoughtful of you to take the time to post on mWR. Best regards to you and your family for a happy and healthy New Year as well. I look forward to reading your posts in the year ahead.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 3:00 PM
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Happy New Year and good luck with the Euro! :-D nt

by Bill

nt

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 5:10 PM
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Leonidas German WW2 chronograph, question for SideB

by Mike

Simon, would it be safe to say that the case for this watch is silver? If so, would it be "solid" silver or plated? Thanks.
Mike

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 1:22 PM
from IP address 64.228.192.147

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Solid silver. (nt)

by SideB

nt

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 3:30 AM
from IP address 64.12.102.26

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Pin stuck

by Mike

Simon, I activated the timer and the pin refuses to go back into it's proper setting. Does this sound as though a return spring might be malfunctioning?

Posted on Jan 1, 2002, 9:03 AM
from IP address 64.228.196.189

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Lectro GMT Watch on eBay

Well, what about this one -

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1684508691

Granted the description isn't so great, and who knows how good the watch really looks. But I thought the GMT bezel was cool...

Is this a "known" watch and/or a "known" dealer? Or - God forbid - is he one of Foggy's "buddies" (ala Mr BS)?

Thanks...

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 1:19 PM
from IP address 12.64.24.71

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Can't comment on the dealer (more)

by Foggy

But I have no reason to class him/her with my other "friend". However, I would be prepared to bet fairly substantial sums of money that the watch aint up to much, quality wise. Typical of the many dive wannabes of the 70's. Plated case, poor movement etc. But hey, for 10 bucks, why not !!

Cheers

Foggy

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 1:40 PM
from IP address 213.122.199.17

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Do you remember Mr Bullsh*t ??? (more)

by Foggy

Hi all

Look how much this Services went for, and the great feedback left. Why ?? How do people fall for this sort of crap ? I'm stunned !!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1652712940

Cheers

Foggy

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 12:47 PM
from IP address 213.122.204.114

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old story

by bob w.

hello to all,

it is the old story. bought the item before the book and doing some research.

happy new year,
bob w.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 1:16 PM
from IP address 152.163.204.199

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The Only Substitute for Money...

is knowledge and sometimes it's expensive to learn.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 2:42 PM
from IP address 64.171.5.204

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Received #96 Marathon SAR/CCG! ....More

by rgs

I just received my Marathon SAR/CCG #96 and it is everything I thought it to be � very nicely finished! I really like the thick sapphire crystal and easy to read dial. It glows very well in the dark. My bezel also aligns perfectly.

I am glad that it is not as �BIG� as I feared it might be. It is about the same size as my Seiko automatic diver and also a submariner when viewed from above � only thicker and more solid when viewed from the side. I was afraid that it would be too WIDE and feel like I had a pancake on my wrist (not so!). I once tried on a full size Omega Seamaster and felt this about the watch.

I think that what is happening is that the impressive construction is mis-interpreted as massive size IMHO.

I replaced the nylon band with a thick rubber dive strap from an old watch I had and it looks great. I am very interested in what the bracelet will be like when it is available.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 12:09 PM
from IP address 152.163.204.76

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I'm jealous, your bezel lines up, mine doesn't!!! NT

.

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 8:18 PM
from IP address 148.78.249.10

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"Special SPY watch" - hmmm (more)

by Foggy

Hi all

This one amused me

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1684043975

Cheers

Foggy

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 11:18 AM
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Seen this one b4, guess didn't sell 1st time.... -nt

by royalh

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 4:01 PM
from IP address 216.101.47.184

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How can it be used as a "timming" device if doesn't have a solenoid? nt

by Mike (E)

nt

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 8:17 PM
from IP address 66.123.206.87

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Follow on from my posting of Bonklip Patent (more)

by Foggy

Hi all

Today I also located a copy of the original drawings that went with the patent application. If anyone is interested in seeing them, I'll do a scan. If not, I won't bother

Best to all in 2002.

Cheers

Foggy

Posted on Dec 31, 2001, 11:00 AM
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