Welcome to the Military Watch Archive Forum. The Forum's primary purpose is to provide an area where the Military Watch Resource community can contribute information on a more comprehensive level than in the Main Forum. This would include important watch reviews, in-depth technical matters and/or thoughts, and essay type posts. Please DO NOT respond to the Posts here. Use the main forum for that.
Bob
I'm not sure if this went, so apologies for double posting.
I've been keeping records of the GSTPs that I've seen either personally or on the web (ebay, etc) and the results so far are:-
"Buren" H (5)
"Cortebert" T (3)
"Cyma" T, H, M, /|\S (21)
"Damas" GS/TP plus 5 or 6 digits (2)
"Doxa" H, 6-digits (5)
"Elgin" A, G, 6 digits (7)
"Enicar" (movement marked only) 6 digits (1)
"Frenca" Q, /|\S (3)
"Grana" J (1)
"Helvetia" P, 6 digits (23)
"Jaeger le Coultre" F, L, M, P, 6 digits, /|\S (32)
"Leonidas" J, L, N, T, /|\S, 6 digits (14)
"Moeris" M, P, 6 digits (13)
"Omega" F, Q, Y (17)
"Recta" F, M (3)
"Tissot" F (1)
"Waltham" E, 5 digits (5)
NOTES:-
(i) /|\S refers to an S stamped immediately below the broad arrow (I've also seen an /|\F on a stopwatch);
(ii) Similar letter prefixes are marked identically across manufacturers eg Recta and Jaeger le Coultre with 'F' markings have the same (diestamped) marks, with similar arrows, or Buren and Doxa H-marked watches.
(iii) Sometimes marked GS/TP, or G.S.T.P, with the arrow above or below
(iv) the XX marking seems in some cases to be a later addition, in others it seems to form part of the offset of the number (and hence was done at the same time as the rest of the marking). Does it indicate XX Corps in this case?
(v) Some of the markings are die-stamped, some machine engraved (although some of the engraved marks have a die-struck broad arrow).
My theory is that batches of watches of different manufacturers were marked in different places by the army, so the Rectas and JLCs referred to above might have been received together, etc. - anyone else any info on this?
Marvin - if you want to email me offline, I can provide more info and scans, etc.
Here is some info from a recent MWR discussion on the Omega '53.
From SideB:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From James Dowling:
Hi Folks
One of the big differences betweent the Thin & Fat Arrows is the circled T on the FA.
Take a look at the document and particularly the CADRAN (dial) section where it says "Pointes RADIUM"
The hands section at the bottom right also includes RADIUM in its sepecification.
I think that explains why the dials were switched.
Good Luck.
James
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bingo. Previous assumption had been that the recall more)
by Bill
had to do a reg requiring the circle-T, but now we see that apparently it had to do with a reg requiring tritium.
Another, more basic mystery surrounding the Fat Arrow: why did it put on all that weight in the first place, and why does it appear on at least two kinds of issue Lemania chronos, as well as the 53? This is one that may never be solved.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinion
by James M Dowling
Hi Bill
My opinion is that the Fat Arrow is the correct design for the arrow, remember that the Thin arrow seems to have been put on the dials in Switzerland.
Looking at the Lemania/Hamilton chronos I have seen; they seem to have had the arrow applied afterwards (ie in the UK).
Other opinions are welcomed.
Good Luck
James
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had wondered whether the Fat Arrow might have been...
by Bill
applied in UK on those. I must have a look at my '81 lemania chrono when it's gotten a crystal that will allow viewing of the dial. It has the FA.
Ziggy on WWW Markings (this is really good stuff).....
by MF
I just heard from Ziggy Wesolowski on the subject of WWW markings, as discussed below on this Forum. I don't think
he'll mind if I quote his thoughts in their entirety--
Initially WWW markings did appear c.1943, as appears to be indicated by the issue of IWC MkX's...
These WWW markings were an abbreviation of Wrist Watch Waterproof, and were stamped/engraved on a variety of
watches supplied over many years, through into the late 50's... Initially the WWW range of watches conformed to one
specification, characterized by watches such as the Omega WWW (that is to say they were issued with black luminous
dials, screw backs, sub seconds and at least a 15 jewel movement - adjusted or otherwise).
Obviously the MkX IWC was an early exception to the screw back... and so it was to go on; exceptions would be made
on a variety of the fundamental characteristics of the WWW watch.
Below is pretty much a definitive list of WWW's produced - compiled in no particular order:
WWW series watches
1. IWC Mk X (Unusual WWW - only series with snap on back)
2. Omega
3. Timor
4. JLC
5. Buren
6. Grana
7. Lemania (Only WWW watches to be supplied with sub secs and sweep secs hands)
8. Vertex
9. Eterna
10. Longines
11. Cyma
12. Record
13. Invicta (only purpose made WWW watch with white dial)
Sorry if I've missed any out...
Certainly when the military first began to take stock of the standard WWW's during WW2, they still had a number of
ATP (Army Time Piece) examples in stores - Consequently, a number of the earlier ATP watches were engraved with
the WWW mark. These are easily identifiable as re-marked ATP's, as the ATP watches were considerably smaller than
the WWW's being supplied.
Some WWW examples were being made and delivered for military service in abundance, through into the late 1950's...
Issue of these watches would have carried on for a great many years thereafter. With a huge supply of spares, the
military would have serviced and maintained their stock of WWW's, until it became economically unviable to do so, or,
they were disposed of as surplus. As James K says, it is highly probable that WWW watches were issued during the
Gulf War... But these were at that time, already some 40 years old! Nevertheless, they were still capable of telling the
time!!
Of course many of the listed WWW suppliers did produce other types of military issue watch during those same years.
And, although many of the later designs such as the IWC MkXI or Omega '53's, could be categorised as WWW's, they
weren't. This is most likely because the MkXI's and '53's were both newer models, conforming to more recent specs,
and, being supplied to forces other than the Army...
Initially WWW watches were for army issue - (albeit this state did not last for long). With the military being the
military, there was a great deal of interchange and many 'army intended' WWW watches were quickly supplied to the
Royal Navy, who seem to be under represented in the wristwatch line throughout the WW2 period.
Of course the RAF had a pretty much unique line in WW2 issue wristwatches... but these, virtually overnight, became
second rate timepieces when compared with the practicality of the newer WWW range. Consequently the RAF also
received their share of WWW's. Of course the RAF were soon to take receipt of their top notch MkXI's, and other such
watches which were in a totally different league, re-establishing themselves as the horological wristwatch masters of
the armed forces.
It is rare (but not impossible) to find a WWW issue watch with any other marks denoting which branch the watch
served in... I suspect that it's simply because they were issued from a pool of WWW watches - A pool into which
anyone of the services could dip into.
The later (non WWW) watches would indeed have their branch codes engraved on to the back of the watches... This
became standard practice in the years following the establishment of NATO.
Just to confuse matters further, the military had a habit of making up marriages of watches. The Lemania and Records
do in fact both share the same case specs - That is to say both these WWW watches share the same letter codes on
the rear of the screw backs, identyfying the same case maker in both instances. Lemania and Record are not the only
examples of interchangeable cases being used within the WWW range... It is therefore likely (I summise) that
examples such as the Invicta, produced late in the WWW series, may well be down to the military using up surplus
WWW cases. If this is so, it may well account as to why WWW's were being produced for so long - seemingly after
newer specifications and marking had superceeded them.
Waste not, want not seems to be a fitting epitaph to the British military authorities.
They're on p 59 of Imai, but I'll post them here for everyone to see. I've put a * by the codes that are on my WWW
watches.
A = *Vertex, Record
F = *Longines, Record, *JLC (JLC not in Imai)
H = *Buren
K = *Timor
L = *Lemania, *Record
M = *IWC, *Grana (Grana not in Imai)
P = *Cyma, *Eterna
Q = Eterna, Lemania
Y = *Omega
after trawling the net for pics of my iwc mk (?) military watch that i just bought at a flea market i wonder if its a fake... do you have pics of the genuine articles or where i can source them... the watch back says
www
^
y1727
10888926
the watch has a screw back and is auto with an engraved mechanism saying 17 jewels and international watch co etc
any info would be greatfully received
Additional techniques for superluminous re-application....
by Radioman
OK,
Someone pointed out to me that my last post implies that I do all the reapplication of the paint freehand. Nothing could be farther from the truth. In fact, you will get the best results, especially on small hands and markers, if you don't do it freehand.
I do a fair amount of soldering, so freehand painting with a small brush is fairly natural for me, I am used the hand position and the painful pauses in the process. I did freehand repaint the hands of Seiko dive watch, but they were big hands.
The easiest way to redo small hands and markers is as follows:
Remove the crystal if you can. Acrylic crystals are easy; you need a tool called a crystal lifter, fairly inexpensive claw like device with screw adjustable pressure to squeeze and compress the crystal so that it cleanly slips out of the bezel.
Any watchmakers supply will have one.
If you cannot remove the crystal, you will need to open the watch properly from the back using the correct tool. There are many correct tools and I can't cover them all here, but do make sure you use the correct tool.
Assuming that you have removed the crystal or in some way gained access to the dial and hands, proceed as follows.
Remove the hands with "hand remover" tool. Be very careful to protect the dial underneath the tool from scratches by placing cushion, like a small square of tissue or paper, underneath the tool. If you don't have a hand remover, buy one, they are cheap and will save you from throwing your beautiful watch against a nearby wall when you realize that you have split the base of the second hand. The great thing about these tools is that they lift the hands straight up. This makes for clean removal.
You do not have remove the dial from the movement, but it helps. If you don't, make sure you protect the movement and put it in a holder, or keep it in the case with the back on.
Now you will need a 3x5 card and some plain old tan paper masking tape. DO NOT USE PLASTIC TAPE. If you have taken my advice and used a non-water based carrier for your paint, plastic tape will dissolve under the paint and make a huge mess.
Take the hands you have recently removed, and place them face up on the card. Completely cover the hands, one by one, with a single strip of masking tape. Then, using a loupe, neatly cut out only that portion of the tape which covers the luminous portion of the hands with a fine blade Xacto knife.
For the dial, follow the same approach, but do not mask any area of the dial with writing on it, since the tape may remove very old lettering.
Apply the luminous paint in several coats, let dry, reapply.
Remove the mask, reassemble, and you are done.
Some warnings -
Generally, do not attempt to remove the old luminous material. In particular, do not attempt to remove old tritium. If you breath the particulates, you are going to give yourself lung cancer. Even worse, the new luminous material will look like hell because the base will be uneven. Seriously though, even if it appears to be dead, that old tritium is dangerous. And the new stuff works just fine over the top.
Don't get carried away with the hands - make sure that you have enough clearance between them before you add too many coats. Two is probably enough, and make sure they are thin. If you have lumps of material, you didn't mix it thin enough. Keep in mind that the paint will not be opaque if correctly mixed.
If you absolutely have to remove some material from the hands or dial, and you have tritium involved, do it under water, in a small tray or place of clean water.
How to restore the Omega Seamaster 300 bezel-insert
by Bill
First, let me say that I do not ordinarily undertake home restoration of expensive vintage military watches. This was a case of
mother-of-invention, though the method was first described to me by Hyunsuk; either he or his legendary watchmaker was the
inventor. Since so many 300 bezels have inserts in such wretched shape, owing to a very undurable design, and since the result is
really quite remarkably nice (wish I had a scanner) I'm going to tell you exactly how to do it.
You will need: #2 round sable modeller's brush, a "fine"-grade Premium Sanding Stick, pack of Testor's plastic-sanding sheets in
finest grades, plastic enamel in matte black and matte desert tan (Humbrol or Testor's), two sewing needles.
1. Examine insert with loup, looking for radial cracks (cracks across the width of the insert, radiating, as it were, from the center of
the dial). If you spot any (and they may be on the underside of the insert) you haven't a hope in hell and need either a new bezel
and insert or a new insert. If you see a crack, abandon the project! Your insert will come out in useless pieces!
2. Pray. Insert one of the needles into the loosest point you can find around the outside edge of the insert. Gently lever it back and
up. The insert is 1mm thick and slightly flexible. When you've levered the insert up sufficiently, stick the second needle beneath the
insert to keep it from snapping back into place. Fiddle with the second needle. The insert is a press-fit, and will loosen and come off,
probably leaving 40% of its water-damaged paint and tritium on the track in the bezel.
3. Clean track in bezel with a few drops of paint thinner and a stiff toothbrush, removing all residue.
4. Wash the insert under warm water, removing tritium and loose paint. Scrub gently with a soft tooth brush. Dry.
5. Place the insert face-down on a piece of chamois on a hard flat surface. Sand off the remaining black paint with the sanding stick,
being careful not to remove plastic. (Do not sand edges of insert, as this would affect press-fit for reassembly.) Wash again to
remove black sanding-dust. Dry.
6. Use one of the needles to pick out any bits of black that are stuck in the numeral and five-minute depressions. (The minute
chapters are, in my experience, almost always okay; they are filled with tough white paint and stay that way. Good for them.) Wash
and stiff toothbrush again.
7. Fold the next-to-finest sanding sheet around the sanding stick and sand back of insert. Follow with finest. A smooth, translucent,
slightly matte surface is perferable; you don't need to polish the back to high shine. Wash and dry.
8. Thoroughly mix sand-colored paint. Apply to numeral and five-minute depressions, filling them. Slopover onto back is okay; in
fact, unavoidable. Let dry. Repeat. Let dry 24 hours.
9. Using sanding stick and sheets, sand tan slopover off back of insert. Wash. Dry.
10. Mix matte black. Paint entire back of insert with matte black. Let dry 24 hours.
11. Insert insert into bezel. Press fit. Presto!
Successful result is virtually indistinguishable from original. Almost all 300 inserts have inactive tritium faded to one or another degree
of tan.
Purists may frown at this, but I regard it as being closer to the original than any redial; you are refilling precision photo-etched
grooves, so each numeral and chapter is exactly as Omega meant it. Ironically, these paints are waterproof, unlike the ones Omega
used. That said, I don't want to have to do this again, ever, and it's put an end to my seemingly insatiable appetite for 300s. I will
keep my mint RN 300 and keep it very VERY dry, thank you.
Hope this will help somebody with a flaking but intact insert and the requisite motor skills. If you've got the right kind of nerves, it's
actually very satisfying.
Sources for luminous materials, some comments and a brief howto...
by
Sources for luminous materials, some comments and a brief howto...
by RadioMan
If you have a steady hand, you can do this yourself with a fine model painters brush. Regarding the materials, I
would highly recommend one of the new superluminous componds (known by the Nemoto/Seiko trademark
"Luminova")but otherwise quite available generically.... These superluminous materials are non-toxic, do not not
have a finite number of charge cycles, and are as bright if not brighter than tritium. I have successfully applied the
pigment to the hands of an old Heuer Autavia and a Seiko Sportsmatic which I am very attached to...
Now for the sources... first, if you want to do this the easy way, just go to
This material is premixed, available in small quantities, inexpensive ($24) and quite well suited for redoing dials and
hands. If you are more of a do it yourself type, I have also purchased the raw pigment from such sources as:
Note that if you ask nicely they will sell to you in smaller quantities.
The pigment itself (strontium aluminate in one form) will be available in a fine powder - for our purposes, the finer
the better, so choose the smallest particle size. The makers also have variants with different colors and durations of
afterglow. The extremely long afterglow products are worth the money, although they command higher prices.
As a carrier for the pigment, you want to use a water-free oil or solvent based clear paint. I purchased mine in a
perfectly sized small bottle from a local hobby shop. Generally, you want this to be fairly watery and thin - the
thicker material is harder to apply accurately.
It is important to note that you cannot premix and store the paint very successfully... especially if the carrier is
water based. Water seems to degrade the performance of the material...
I would mix this up in tiny batches just before you use it.
If you examine the application of superluminous material on newer Seiko and Citizen or Omega watches, you can
see that the luminous properties of the compound are enhanced by by a few techniques -
- Application of many layers - Seiko stacks the compound into what appear to be almost tiny "blocks". These are
not markers in the traditional sense of removable metal objects - just thick built up layers of pigment on a white
background.
- Application on a white or reflective background. Citizen actually places the material into small steel or nickel plated
cup like markers. The bottom of the marker, beneath the pigment is polished to an almost mirror like brightness-
which reflects the light from the pigment back up toward the viewer. Seiko appears to apply the pigment to a white
marker on the dial.
Make sure the surface you apply the compound to is clean and white or reflective. If necessary, apply a plain white
base coat of paint first - this really helps.
Apply many thin coats, and let the earlier coats dry completely. I let mine dry for a day between layers. If you are
patient, you can get excellent results.
I like to use a very fine brush with short bristles - cutting them down if necessary.
Sometimes finding books on military timepieces can be almost as daunting a task as finding the watches themselves. The books that I can recommend to get you started on your milwatch journey are:
1) A Concise Guide to Military Timepieces by Ziggy Wesolowski (An MWR regular). Anchor Supplies should have them.
2) Military Watch Encyclopedia by Kesaharu Imai. Written by perhaps the world's foremost military watch collector, this book is in Japanese, however, there are indispensible images as well as military specifications in English. Finding this one outside of Japan has proven difficult, but not impossible. Possible sources; a Japanese friend, eBay, possibly James Dowling.
3) Military Timepieces by Marvin Whitney. A comprehensive, but possibly out of print book. Hard to find at a decent price. Might try Windy City.
4) The Best of Time - Rolex Wristwatches by James Dowling. Widely available, though often expensive. Great info if you like military Rolex. Written by MWR frequent contributor James Dowling.
5) Militäruhren 'Die Uhren der deutschen Streitkräfte 1870 bis 1990' A Documentation of 'Timepieces of the German Forces from 1870 to 1990' by Konrad Knirim. In German, but with English abstracts. Order through: http://www.knirim.de/. Great book written by suspected MWR lurker, Konrad Knirim.
6) British Ministry of Defence Ministry of Aviation Supply Document The British Military specification. Copies are rumored to be floating around here on MWR.
That should get you a good start to milwatch collecting.
FAQ How do I post my own images on the Internet? (Here's an easy way)
by
Posting on the web can be a daunting task for computer novices. The easiest way I have found for computer challenged folk is to sign up for a free photo account. Currently, a free hosting service is www.imagestation.com. With the recent demise of Photopoint and Zing, I would be wary of any free based service. The absolute best way is to use whatever free space your own ISP provides.
If you follow their easy sign up procedure and instructions, you can be well on your way to uploading all of your many
images for free to your own webspace. From there, it is a matter of just posting the "link" to the photo you wish to
show here on Broadarrow (the easiest way). Once you get comfortable uploading images, you can even explore HTML
and post images direct to this site (a bit harder), just like the oldtimers.
I find the easiest way (with Netscape) is to right click on the image and and then paste the entire URL directly into
the HTML.
Wherever you see [ or this ], use < . I can't show you using < because it would try to post an image.
The command to center your images is [center] and to turn off centering [/center]. These commands must appear in
pairs to work.
The command to put spaces between multiple pictures is [p]
If you are successful, you will see images when you click preview (post away). If you forgot something, you will have
broken links when you click preview (don't post).
Regards,
Bob
This message has been edited by militaryarchive on Oct 8, 2001 1:29 PM This message has been edited by militaryarchive on Jul 12, 2001 5:01 PM
Ollech & Wajs Caribbean 1000 (what the rolex Sub should ahve been?)
by
Not a review. Just a look at an inovative idea designed 30 years ago and why a little known company built something that should have been built by Rolex in IMHO.
The watch in the scans below is an Ollech & Wajs Carbbean 1000 meter dive watch. O & W were not only makers of interesting watches, but also supplied parts to Breitling for their Navitimer models.
The case is a s/s unibody (one piece) with the movement inserted from the top. 40 mm in diameter and 45.5 mm lug to lug. With crystal on. The height is 16 mm. Crown is a screwdown with threads on the inside of the winding tube.
The movement is an unadorned ETA 17 jewel automatic with date.
Bezels came with 60 minute or 12 hour bi-directional turning with luminous markings. The watch came in dark blue, black, yellow or jade green with matching bezel insert. There were also two different widths of bezel inserts. A thin model (shown in scan) or the wider (about 1 mm more)
The watch in the early 70's was used to set a number of dive records. With tank and without. Been also said that the watch was a favorite of Vietnam military personnel who purchased the watches rather than use one's supplied to them.
The interesting thing about the watch is the crystal and why the watch warrents it's 3000 ft. depth rating.
The movement sits in a movement ring and is placed deep into the case. The crystal is then placed into the case and held in place with a s/s screwdown retaining ring. A rubber "O" ring under the crystal and a flat rubber ring under the retaining ring insuring proper water tightness.
With the bezel on. The crystal has a very low profile. The edge is barely 1/32nd above the rim and sit's about 1/8" higher in the middle.
The crystal is a slab of plastic. 1/8" thick on the side, with a 1/8" thick lip which the retaining ring presses down on. It's the top that's interesting.
Due to the lower sitting movement. The crystal has a very shallow curve on the underside matching that of the top. Between inside and out, is a 5 MM thickness of plastic.
At the time of it's creation. The Rolex Submariner had a 200 meter or 660 ft. depth rating.
Original value was $105.00
Most of these seen for sale are NOS due to the company going out of business just after the death of Mr. Ollech in the early 70's
At most, have seen over the past year and a half is less than 50 watches listed for sale. How many were produced is unknown, but willing to say that compared to a vintage Rolex from the same era that the Caribbean is much rarer
Current prices for the watches are about $550-$700. With a price of $1000.00 expected by the end of the year by some collectors.
Currently timing mine and is in pieces.
O & W image used with permission (Thanks Bob - sinnezm)
Some additional information supplied by Howard M. Marx
This small mid size Rolex was offered to me today, I was interested because it had the applied 3,6,9 "Explorer" style dial and the rare 50m=165ft markings on the dial. (Click here to see the watch.)
However my ears perked up when I was told that the watch had a colourful military history, I was informed that a member of the famed 22 SAS whilst on active service in Malaya bought it. But long experience has taught me to accept stories like this with a bushel of salt. As the bracelet on the watch was a loose light one in quite poor condition, I assumed the worst when I asked, "is there any paperwork with it?" Imagine my surprise when I was shown the ( receipt) and the ( warranty), both of them bearing the watch number and from Singapore in 1955. This was significant, because both the date and the time were correct for the Malaya conflict. But, as naturally suspicious as I am, I asked for further proof. A plastic bag was then offered to me and in it were 3 items, a 22 SAS shoulder badge, a cap badge from the same regiment and smaller version in silver coloured in blue & white enamel(Click here to see the badges.). I looked them over and the thought came to mind "these are not easy to get but not impossible". So I asked if there was anything else and reluctantly he pulled out a small cloth covered item and handed it to me. When I turned it over I read "22 Special Air Services Regiment Permanent Pass"; I opened it & the holder's details were all listed(Click here to see the pass.). Whilst I was looking at this item, I was handed a black & white photograph, showing 12 European soldiers & 5 Asian ones in a jungle clearing, almost all holding guns. He pointed to one guy sitting bare chested at the end of one row and said "This is him wearing the watch"(Click here to see the photo.).
Do you think I bought it?
Well, after the transaction was completed, he was about to walk away but he turned round and said, "You might as well have these" and handed me another small plastic bag. I examined the contents, an ivory cigarette holder and a cheap pressed metal cigarette lighter with Chinese markings, with a quizzical look. "He kept them with the watch & stuff because he took them from a guy he killed the next day"(Click here to see the stuff.)
I am rarely at a loss for words.
Dear Sir,The photo was taken in Borneo and I recognise the man holding the tin mug. It is Trooper Willie Watson. The others I am afraid I cannot name because it is such a long time ago.The local people are Dyak trackers who were working with the SAS on operations against the INDONGS(indonesians)They were head hunters and excellent trackers. The man wearing the watch is almost certainly Sgt Johnnie Dearden known as "Fingers four". The watch came into his possession in the same way as the cigarette holder and lighter. The person wearing the watch did not need it anymore....
IMAGE THREAD: Rolex Military Submariners (scans + images)
by
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is this the rarest Military Rolex? (More BIG scans)
by James Dowling
Hi Guys;
My researches had always led me to believe that the 6536 was the
earliest model of Sub to be issued as a Military watch.
Imagine my surprise last year when I discovered this 5510 whilst on
one of my travels.
It is an Australian issue watch & is even more rare because it uses
the "Explorer" style dial which I thought was only used on UK sold
watches.
This is why love Rolex, just when you think you know
something......along comes something else to shake your confidence.
The second picture is the cover of a 1960s Rolex catalog showing a
military frogman wearing an identical watch. Note the lack of crown
guards & the bar hour markers, not circles as on the regular dial.
Good Luck
James
Posted on Jan 30 2000, 06:39 AM
from IP address 152.163.204.191
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Thanks for the great pictures and welcome to the site!! nt
by Bob
nt
Posted on Jan 30 2000, 08:48 AM
from IP address 63.23.166.170
Respond
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Rolex Mil (LARGE scan)
by James Dowling
Hi Folks;
This is a 1955 Explorer 6150 issued to the Hydrographic Survey dept of
the Royal Navy. I have seen about 4 of these & they do NOT have fixed
bars.
Sorry about the size of the scan
Good Luck
James
Posted on Jan 30 2000, 06:16 AM
from IP address 152.163.204.191
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And here is another one that may not be the real thing!
by Jon
Check out ebay offering number 247610221
Offered as a genuine British military Rolex Sub. But, it has spring
bars and no markings on the caseback.
This from the same seller that claims that Tudor Subs with square
markers were 'designed by Rolex for military use'
JJ
Posted on Jan 29 2000, 08:05 PM
from IP address 202.135.86.84
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Real Thing................not Coca Cola
by James Dowling
Hi Bob;
Nice forum covering a an under researched niche in the watch area.
Here is a pic of the nicest model 5517 Military Submariner that I have
ever had.
It was sold towards the end of last year, so dont ask.
Good Luck
James
Posted on Jan 29 2000, 05:28 PM
from IP address 152.163.205.9
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MILITARY ???
by CAPT. M
Hi James, can you tell us what Military or Govt. issued that Rolex.?
Posted on Jan 29 2000, 07:15 PM
from IP address 204.186.72.135
Respond
------------------------------------------------------------------------
British Navy. [nt]
by Carlos
nt
Posted on Jan 29 2000, 07:51 PM
from IP address 152.167.147.235
Respond
------------------------------------------------------------------------
BRITISH NAVY ???
by CAPT. M
Carlos, I did not notice any Brirish Govt. markings on it.? Such as
the broad arrow Govt. mark. CAPT. M
Posted on Jan 29 2000, 08:08 PM
from IP address 204.186.72.135
Respond
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Broad arrow mark is engraved on the caseback (nt)
by H. Seung
nt
Posted on Jan 29 2000, 08:15 PM
from IP address 210.94.6.86
Respond
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Didn't this watch end up being someone's wedding present??? (more)
by Roger
Isn't this the watch Hyunsuk Seung received from his bride-to-be as a
wedding present?
Word gets around, you know... who wouldn't want their wife sharing
their watch collecting passion!
--Roger
Posted on Jan 29 2000, 07:22 PM
from IP address 165.247.135.118
Respond
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Mine is a regular Submariner Ref. 5513, not military...
by H. Seung
Actually, the one James Dowling posted is an extremely rare Ref. 5517
Submariner issued to Royal Marines in 1977. It has fully indexed
bezel, baton shaped hands, circle T mark (for tritium presence), hack
movement, and military inscriptions on the caseback. Mine is a regular
Ref. 5513 Submariner, circa 1968.
Posted on Jan 29 2000, 07:52 PM
from IP address 210.94.6.86
Respond
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G'day James! Nice to see you here!
by Jon
..
Posted on Jan 29 2000, 07:55 PM
from IP address 202.135.86.84
Respond
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If anyone's interested, there's a military Submariner for sale...
by H. Seung
If anyone's interested, there's a military Submariner for sale by a
Japanese collector named Seiji Motoi. He has several other military
watches, including IWC Mark XI, Heuer Bund Chronograph among others.
Here's the photo of the Sub:
Posted on Jan 29 2000, 08:13 PM
from IP address 210.94.6.86
Respond
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More pix
by James
Hi Folks;
Here are the pix of the back, showing the marks (and my Nikon 950 in
reflection) and the extremely rare ref 5517 between the lugs.
Good Luck
James
Posted on Jan 30 2000, 05:53 AM
from IP address 152.163.204.191
Respond
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Nicest Submariner I've ever seen. nt
by Ol'crewdog
;
Posted on Jan 31 2000, 01:24 PM
from IP address 63.21.187.111
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Why do you suppose that an IWC MK X and MK XI fetch such outrageous prices when JLCs are still available for around $1,000.
by Bob
Is it production output? It's true I see less IWCs on the market. But does anyone think the IWC is that much better than a Jaeger LeCoultre or Omega in terms of quality?
Best,
Bob
Posted on Jan 28 2000, 12:23 PM
from IP address 63.23.167.137
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Some thoughts on this.....
by Jon
Good question Bob.
I don't think the price rises of the IWC Mk 10 and Mk 11 are tied to
rarity or quality. In 1980 you could buy a Mk 11 for less than $100 at
US antique stores. I think the JLC 6b and the JLC www are equal in
quality and craftsmanship and are clearly better value. For some
reason the IWC has become a phenomonon similar to the Rolex
Cosmographs and Explorer 1. The market just seems willing to pay a lot
for these. None of these watches being especially rare or unique.
I am a little confused by the Mk 10. IWC refers to it as a development
among its line of pilot watches. However, the look and markings
indicate it is built to the MOD specifications for a mid 1940s British
army watch.
When you look at the MK 11 and compare it with other post war RAF 6b
watches, it really only stands out a little from the others. The best
value in this group is the Hamilton 6b from the 60s. Silky smooth for
about $500, minty.
Also, the Omega 53, unique in that it was only made in the one year,
is very attractive and robust. Also, its size is in line with today's
tastes. And way less than $1000 in minty condition.
I think the IWC Mk 11 is a rip off. BUT, I am saving my money and will
get one anyway. I can't find the one I already own. Bought in 1980 for
$80. Just a novelty at the time and have since lost track of it.
Posted on Jan 29 2000, 01:25 PM
from IP address 202.135.86.217
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Some thoughts on this...
by MF
Hi Bob,
I concur fully that the JLC versions of the Mark X and Mark XI are
fully under-valued and absolutely worth owning.
I personally believe, which is subjective, the IWC Mark XI has
slightly better casework and dial design than the JLC, but the JLC
movement ca. 1953 arguably is a tad better (I'm not sure there's any
practical difference and the Cal. 89 used by IWC is an excellent
movement).
On the other hand, the vintage market has never been driven strictly
by quality one way or another; like all economic markets it is driven
by supply and demand. I think we need to keep in mind that companies
supplying military watches in quantity to goverments were not selling
them at premium; they were contract sales, generally ordered by
administrators and not watch connoisseurs.
The question to my thinking is "why the demand" for the IWC Marks? I
think the reason, aside from deisgn considerations, is that they fall
within a long tradition.
Jon said below, if I understand him correctly, that he didn't
understand that tradition since the IWC Mark X was made to UK military
specs --absolutely true, since all true Mark watches are, by
designation as Marks, military spec watches (not for the Mark XII and
other recent "commercial" watches). But Jon's query ignores what might
be the longest tradition of military watches of any major Swiss
watchmaking firm.
Aside from WWI trench style watches, my research indicates that IWC
actually began with military issue watches in the 1920s for the German
airforce (a scan of one is buried on my Discussion Forum --see my
response to Simon). That was followed by the Mark IX (again to
military specs) in the mid-1930s), followed by the famous IWC B-Uhr of
1940, followed by the Mark X and then the Mark XI. The Mark XI started
in 1947 --some reports say 1948, but authentic 1947 examples exist--
and that model (with several subtle variations) continued for over 40
years, and at least 25 in military issue.
And during this period, IWC also made several other military watches,
including the remarkable German Navy Ocean 2000 with special
antimagnetic properties, German DH models, Geman KM models, and some
watches that do not have issue marks but most likely were used in
combat.
No other military watches, by any other brand, come close to this
history. That doesn't mean there aren't some better watches (Patek
Phillipe military watches have been found) or others than fulfill the
Mark specifications. But JLC's Mark XI was made for a very short time
(arguably 1953, but I think it may be slightly more) and JLC's
military watch tradition does start in the teens or twenties and go to
the eighties.
This doesn't make IWCs any better watches --although they're "right up
there" with the best militaries-- but it might help explain that
demand.
Regards,
Michael Friedberg
Posted on Jan 30 2000, 09:13 AM
from IP address 12.75.158.236
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Thanks Michael...a question...
by Jon
Hello Michael
Your posting is very informative and helpful to those of us that want
to know about the evolution of these watches.
Let me ask a couple of questions about the Mk 10. Was it released in
1939? Was it supposed to be an aviator's watch? If so, why did such a
late development in aviation watches have a sub second dial, instead
of a sweep second dial?
If the Mk 10 preceded the MOD standarization of the British Army WWW
(wristwatch waterproof), does that mean that the MOD standardized
their issue watches around the Mk 10?
It is also interesting that you mention DH watches made by IWC. Wow! I
didn't know that IWC made them. Are they signed?
When you think about it, the 1939 DH watches and the 1940s British WWW
watches are made to the same standard, except for the size. Did the
IWC DH watches precede the Mk 10?
Reading this back, I am sorry that I have peppered you with so many
questions. However, your input and information enriches this web site.
Regards
Jon
Posted on Jan 30 2000, 02:15 PM
from IP address 202.135.86.176
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Here's what I believe are the answers
by MF
Hi Jon,
Thanks for your comments.
Before I begin answering your questions, at least as best I can, I
should correct one item in my prior post. I would say that Omega has a
military watch tradition as rich historically as IWC, with certainly
more diverse models. But Omega was a larger company and it seems like
IWC always "specialized" in these military contract sales.
Anyhow, about IWCs--
Let me ask a couple of questions about the Mk 10. Was it released in
1939?
No; it was first made in 1943 with some production I recall in 1944
(some issue dates are later).
Was it supposed to be an aviator's watch? If so, why did such a late
development in aviation watches have a sub second dial, instead of a
sweep second dial?
No; all IWC Mark Xs, at least those made for the UK, are marked WWW
(wrist watch waterproof, depending who you talk to) and as such were
primarily for ground troop. However, I've been lead to believe some
were used by the RAF; I can't confirm that.
The subsecond dial issue, at least to my knowledge, is separate. If I
recall the central seconds hand was not invented until about 1936 (was
it Eterna?) and not that common until the early 40s. Many military
procurement officers also were conservative (witness the number of
pocketwatches!) and also there was a real demand for any watches
(witness the huge number of brands of WWWs and DHs). I think there was
a little bit of "anything goes".
If the Mk 10 preceded the MOD standarization of the British Army WWW
(wristwatch waterproof), does that mean that the MOD standardized
their issue watches around the Mk 10?
I think there's a misapprehension or miscommunication here. The MOD
standardization started in the 1920s, again if I recall. See Ziggy
Wesolowski's great book --he gives example of Mark V pocket watches,
etc. I think there's even a Mark II in there if I recall!
The Mark IX by IWC from the 30s. was one of the watches in the Mark
military spec series. The Mark X was IWC's "WWW" and came out to meet
the Mark X specs in the mid-40s.
It is also interesting that you mention DH watches made by IWC. Wow! I
didn't know that
IWC made them. Are they signed?
To my knowledge, yes. You need to run, not walk, to get Konrad
Knirim's book on German military timepieces. Information is at-- http://home.t-online.de/home/konrad.knirim/english.htm
I have a white dial IWC from the middle of the Mark X 1943 production
run. The back was replaced so I can't authenicate more than the
movement and dial, although the case itself is identical to a Mark X.
There is speculation that it was a German submarine watch, and the
back was replaced due to engravings, but I'll never be able to prove
that.
When you think about it, the 1939 DH watches and the 1940s British WWW
watches are
made to the same standard, except for the size.
Absolutely correct. Also there's literally dozens upon dozens of
examples in Knirim's book. Some also were sold in civilian stores,
essentially for officers who wanted a higher grade watch in exact
military specs. I have one of those by IWC --antimagnetic, 30mm, exact
dial-- but not military marked-- from 1942.
Did the IWC DH watches precede the Mk 10? I am not 100% sure but
believe so. My "civilian store IWC military is from 1942.
Hope this helps. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Regards,
Michael
Posted on Jan 30 2000, 03:33 PM
from IP address 12.75.157.159
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Thanks Michael.......
by Jon
Thanks for the informaion.
I hope Bob can find a way to archive postings such as yours and Mr.
Dowlings.
By the way, in my first posting, I refered to the current pricing of
the Mk 11s as a 'ripoff.' I was joking and take it back. Market value
is market value. I think 'painful' may be a better word for someone
that is seeking to buy one.
Cheers
Jon
Posted on Jan 30 2000, 04:29 PM
from IP address 202.135.86.226
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A bit more on the Mark XI . . .
by Ol'crewdog
Hi all -
Fascinating thread. Thanks Michael and Jon for some very interesting
info.
I have two Mk XIs, one an IWC which was RAF issue in 1952, the other a
JLC which was RAF issue in 1948. I believe that Michael referred to
1953 as the sole year of issue for the JLCs in the RAF. I think that
he may be referring to the RAAF, not RAF.
I have seen a number of JLC Mk XIs which were RAF issue in 1948 but
have never heard of any RAF pieces issued in any other year. James
Dowling said that as far as he knew 1948 was the only year that the
Royal Air Force issued the JLCs. If there are examples of other years,
I'd love to see them.
I have also seen a number of JLC Mk XIs which were issued to the RAAF
in 1953. Again, as far as I have seen, 1953 is the only year that the
Australians issued this watch.
The dials of the two watches, other than the company names, are
identical. The cases on the other hand, while both the same diameter,
are noticeably different in shape geometry and the lugs.
Apparently there were far fewer JLC Mk XIs than IWCs; nonetheless,
they sell for less than half of what an IWC sells for. Clearly, the
only explanation for this is demand.
I believe that this difference in demand is due to the greater
awareness of the IWC version due to IWC's efforts in marketing their
current line of "Pilots' watches". Schaffhausen has leaned very
heavily on their Mark history in their marketing. By contrast JLC has
no Pilot's watch in its current lineup and is not trumpeting its
history of supplying such pieces.
They are both great examples of what I believe is one of the best
military, and navigator's, watches ever issued.
Regards,
OCD
Posted on Jan 31 2000, 09:02 AM
from IP address 63.21.186.205
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Does JLC service the issue watches like IWC?
by Ed
I know that IWC will completely refurbish the Mark X's and XI's using
original parts when available. I wonder if JLC would do the same? Has
anyone had the experience in sending their issue JLC back to the
manufacturer? I have sent watches back to Hamilton with mixed results.
Posted on Jan 31 2000, 11:19 AM
from IP address 209.99.186.105
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JLC will refurbish their Mk XI. (more)
by Ol'crewdog
Hi Ed -
JLC will refurbish their Mark XIs.
I have exchanged a series of e-mails with them on the topic, and they
can and will refurbish the Mk XI in Le Sentier. Available parts
include those necessary for the overhaul of the movement, as well as
crowns, crystals, dials and hands, associated gaskets, etc.
It is not cheap. It works out to about the same total restoration cost
as on the IWC, although broken out differently.
I am confident that they will do a top drawer job, and plan to send
mine to them soon. (I had mine overhauled by Tom Gref when I first
received it from James Dowling.)
Regards,
OCD
Posted on Jan 31 2000, 01:16 PM
from IP address 63.21.187.111
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I have sold a couple of Rolex Military Submariners in the last couple of months and I wanted to check how long it had been since I previously sold one. I ran through my records and, of course, the computer started at the beginning, and told me that the first Mil Sub that I sold was in 1987 and sold for the sum of £245.00. I was amazed at this figure, not because it was so little but because it was so much. Because I can remember around 1984 I was able to buy these watches from a friend of mine who went to the Military Surplus Auctions and bought these watches in lots of 12 at a time for about £300 a tray. In other words about £25.00 (or $40.00 US) per watch; the sad thing was that most of them were bought by dealers who removed the dial & hands, threw them away & replaced them with standard versions. They then drilled out the solid bars & buffed the backs and sold them as cheap Rolex Submariners.
At the same auctions I was also able to obtain any number of Mk 11 IWC pilot's watches. They were slightly more expensive than the Subs as there was a more active market in them. But they were still under £40.00 ($65.00 US) per watch.
Several of the Mk 11s were unusual versions; there were ones marked "British Overseas Aircraft Corporation" (the old govt owned predecessor of BA); Royal Aircraft Establishment, Farnborough; Royal Aircraft Establishment, Boscombe Down (the UK equivalent of Edwards Air Force, where all the experimental stuff was done in the 1950s) and half a dozen or so white dialled versions. The white dial versions were almost impossible to sell and I usually took them under duress. The dial layout of the white dial watches was quite different from the standard versions & they had no military markings on the rear and no luminous anywhere on the dial or hands. I never discovered the purpose of these watches, but I heard many stories; they were meant for use by the crew of nuclear submarines. They were also supposed to be for use in atomic power stations or by Special Forces who operated in civilian clothes. I never knew which (if any) of these stories to believe; however I found it interesting to note that none of these claims arose until after the white dial Mk 11s became almost impossible to find.
It is to my eternal shame that I must confess I replaced the dials on 2 of the white ones I had; I still do not know what I did with the discarded white dials.
My question to you all is, what do we buy & sell nowadays that we will look back in 15 years and think……."Oh No!!!!!!!"?
nt
